The Seal?

OntheDL said:

Well, do you think anyone can be sealed by the spirit who knowingly break the law?

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What does what we think have to do with it?

honorthesabbath said:

Oh yes--I have seen this too. It's like--'see--we re keeping the 'real' Sabbath too". Of course--without really keeping it. Isn't tis an example of 'in the hand' service to God?

So we can see--God is indeed working on the hearts of His people who are in ignorance.

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Unless you are as stringently meticulous about observing the Sabbath as any Orthodox Jew would be, you are not 'keeping' the Sabbath yourself Honor, so I wouldn't point the finger at us liberal SDA's too quickly.

honorthesabbath said:

Most liberal SDA's keep Sabbath the way sunday keepers keep sunday. So it is your witness that I was referring to. This may be why your friends are not stirred by your actions.

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Oh brother. This doesn't even make any sense.

honorthesabbath said:

There are different 'paths'? I'm curious--could you expound?

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Paths with God. A person's walk with God. Each path many have many aspects. Religious. Philosophical. Cultural. Familial. And many other aspects.

I am immensely curious about the realities of others. Especially when these realities are unfamiliar to me.

IntoTheCrimsonSky said:

..hense the question of two possible seals.

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Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The Holy Spirit is the down payment on our inheritance. It is God's sign of ownership, and assures us of what is to come

The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel of their relationship. Similarly circumcision was a sign between God and Abraham, and his offspring (including Israel).

There is more than one sign in the Bible of more than one relationship. So I would say you are reading things correctly. There is more than one sign, more than one seal, more than one relationship. Reading in context is therefore important. You have to know what relationship is being spoken of.

honorthesabbath said:

Perhaps your brand of Adventism doesn't spark their ire.

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By all means, let us come off as beligerent and offensive as possible to people with our Adventism.

When Christ is ready to come back, and with the Holy Spirit being pour out on the faithful, a very clear choice will appear, and God's true people will step up and those who are following the guidance of the Holy Spirit into all truth will be sealed. Those who love Christ and follow what He asks will now be guided into great truths which will be made clear and much understanding unveiled, and those who truly have accepted Him will be sealed in the truth they've embraced, and those who just declared they accepted Christ but continued with their iniquity will show their true nature. Here is a good article on it:

"...What is the Seal of God?

Today, although ministers preach about the mark of the beast, relatively little attention seems to be paid to the question, "What is the seal of God? As life continues on as usual from day to day, scarcely any attention is paid to the seal of God. By contrast, nearly one hundred years ago Ellen G. White called special attention to its importance. "The time has come," she wrote, "when all who have an interest in their soul's salvation should earnestly and solemnly inquire, What is the seal of God? (Signs of the Times, Nov.1, 1899).

A century ago early believers felt that understanding the seal of God was a matter of life and death. They realized that only those receiving the seal of the living God will pass through the time of trouble and the seven last plagues successfully. Only the sealed ones will stand in the Day of the Lord. To understand this subject was a top priority.

The Seal of God as the Sabbath.

The first time that Ellen G. White associated the seal of God with the Sabbath was in 1848. A few months later, in January 1849, Joseph Bates, the pioneer Sabbath theologian, published the first Adventist book on the subject and called it, A Seal of the Living God. One of Ellen White's arguments that the seal of God is the Sabbath was that the Sabbath commandment contains the characteristics of a seal. A seal, she observed in our early days and reiterated many years later, is attached to a law to show the name, title, and authority of the lawgiver. The Sabbath commandment can therefore be considered a seal because it "is the only one of all the ten in which are found both the name and the title of the Lawgiver. It is the only one that shows by whose authority the law is given. Thus it contains the seal of God, affixed to His law as evidence of its authenticity and binding force" (Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 307).
The Sabbath helps to give the ten commandments their unique significance. "The Sabbath was placed in the decalogue as the seal of the living God, pointing out the Law-giver, and making known his right to rule." Thus the Sabbath is the sign of a relationship between God and His people, serving as "a test of their loyalty to Him" (Signs of the Times, May 3, 1886). The mission of Seventh-day Adventists can be described as "presenting the law of God as a test of character and as the seal of the living God" (Testimonies for the Church, 2:468). This reasoning seems to make good sense. However, there is more to the sealing message.

The Seal of God in the Forehead.

lf the Sabbath is the seal of the living God, what is the seal that the angel will place in the forehead (see Rev 7:2-3)? The seal to be placed in the forehead is "a mark which angels, but not human eyes, can read; for the destroying angel must see this mark of redemption. The intelligent mind has seen the sign of the cross of Calvary in the Lord's adopted sons and daughters" (7BC 968, my italics). (In this article, references to Ellen G. White comments in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary are indicated by the ab breviation BC, with the volume number preceding it.)

Described in greater detail, "The seal given in the forehead is God, New Jerusalem. will write upon him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, (Rev 3:2)" (Manuscript Releases 15:225).
This seal is to be given to those only who make the necessary preparation. In His mercy, God has commissioned four angels to hold the winds of strife so that His people may have time to make this preparation for receiving the seal in their foreheads (Early Writings, 38).

A distinction, evidently, was to be made between mere outward observance of the Sabbath and the true Sabbath observance which would involve intense spiritual preparation. Unfortunately, many Adventists did not take advantage of the "wind-holding" delay when they first learned about it. After more than 40 years, Ellen White exclaimed in frustration, "Brethren, how long before you will be ready for the seal of God?' (Review and Herald, June 7, 1887).

What is the Necessary Preparation?

The vast majority of Ellen G. White's comments about the seal of God deal with the preparation needed to receive it. For instance, "a great work" must be accomplished "to prepare a people to be sealed with the seal of the living God" (Selected Messages, 2:73).
A qualification found among the earliest of Ellen White's writings is that believers "must reflect the image of Jesus fully" (Early Writings, p. 7). We ask what this appealing concept means in practical terms and learn that it means to have "victory over every besetment, over pride, selfishness, love of the world, and over every wrong word and action" (ibid.). Those who "overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil, will be the favored ones who shall receive the seal of the living God" (Testimonies to Ministers, p. 445).

In order to "bear a likeness to Christ in character" (7BC 970), we are exhorted to study "more earnestly the character of our Saviour." "We should imitate the lovely Pattern that God has given us, We should dwell upon the matchless charms of Jesus until there will be nothing satisfying in this perishing world. We should desire to reflect his image in kindness, in courtesy, in gentleness, and love, then 'when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is'" (Review and Herald, May 28, 1889).

Such a focus involves the exciting prospect of becoming more and more like Jesus. "The more we study the life of Christ with a heart to learn, the more Christlike we become" (Sons and Daughters of God, p. 342). The promised outcome is beyond our highest expectations: "holiness of character" (Testimonies to Ministers, p. 446). Indeed, the cleansing of the "soul temple of every defilement," will produce characters without "one spot or stain" (Sons and Daughters of God, p. 342; Testimonies, 5:214).

Keeping God's Commandments and the Faith of Jesus.

Those who receive God's seal upon their foreheads are "God's commandment-keeping people." "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Rev 14:12; Testimonies, 6:15). Their sins removed, "they have on the wedding garment, and are obedient and faithful to all God's commands" (7BC 968).

To have the law of God written in heart and mind, so as to survive during the difficult times ahead, means to fill our minds with the "present truth" and love of the Bible, and to have as our greatest desire to set our eyes on Jesus at His return. "There is no place in our foreheads for the seal of the living God" if it is filled with the cares and pleasures of this world (Broadside, Jan. 3, 1849).
It is of paramount importance to manifest the works of faith. Many who teach the truth will not receive the seal of God, because even though "they had the light of truth, they knew their Master's will, they understood every point of our faith,... they had not corresponding works" (Testimonies, 5:214). "Many will not receive the seal of God because they do not keep His commandrnents or bear the fruits of righteousness" (Maranatha, p. 24 l). How serious is our behavior! "Our own course of action will determine whether we shall receive the seal of the living God or be cut down by the destroying weapons" (Testimonies, 5:212).

Keeping the Sabbath Holy.

Even though mere outward Sabbath keeping is not worthy of the seal, all who receive God's seal will nonetheless be committed to obeying the Word of God "with exactitude" (The Faith I Live By, p. 288). They carefúlly observe all ten commandments, including "the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. This is what distinguishes them from the disloyal, who have accepted a man-made institution in the place of the true Sabbath" (7BC 970, 981). The seal of God, therefore, can only be bestowed upon Sabbath- keepers.
God is very particular with His requirements. When the Israelites were about to depart from Egypt, God directed them to bring their children indoors, strike the door posts with blood, and allow no one to go outside until after midnight. When the destroying angel passed over, all who faithfully followed God's counsels enjoyed divine protection. But the first-born died in every home that neglected even the least of God's instructions (7BC 981).
The destroying angel is soon to pass agam over the world. Those who faithfully obey all God's commandments will be protected. Their unique mark will be the true, Christ-like observance of the Sabbath. Despite world-wide opposition, they choose to remain loyal, and thus they enjoy divine protection from the angel of death. They stand out among the multitude because they have a mark placed upon them, and "that mark is the keeping of His holy Sabbath." But those who are not careful in Sabbath observance will be destroyed along with the rest of the world (7BC 981).
It is no surprise that much of what Ellen G. White wrote about the Sabbath has to do with its proper observance. Believers are in danger of "doing their own pleasure on the Sabbath day" and hence are in no condition to receive the seal of the living God. "We have not, as a people, given the law of God the preeminence as we should" (Selected Messages, 3:258).

Sanctification plays a crucial role in preparation for the seal of God. There is a great need that Adventists should be "sanctified through the truth, acting upon high and holy principles, showing in a high, elevated sense, the line of demarcation between those who keep the coramandraents of God, and those who trample them under their feet." It is "the sanctification of the Spirit" that "signalizes the difference between those who have the seal of God, and those who keep a spurious rest-day" (7BC 980).

Those who fully submit themselves to the sanctifying power of the Spirit are the ones who can effectively warn the world. Their Christ-like sanctified Sabbath observance will be a crucial factor in persuading the honest in heart to accept the last message of merey. In vain have these people looked for the image of Christ in their churches (The Great Controversy, p. 390). Now, at last, they see it fully reflected in the remnant, who manifest their supreme love for the Lord of the S abbath by keeping His Sabbath holy in the finest Christlike sense.

The issue is far more than the day of worship. The day symbolizes the experience and commitment of God's true people; and even more than this, it becomes an ultimate vindication of God's character and His law, showing that what God asks is not impossible, with His power...." excerpts from 'The Seal of God' by P. Gerard Damsteegt.

tall73 said:

When do you think the new covenant went into effect?

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The new covenant goes into effect when a person lives by faith. Even during sacrificial times the people had to have faith in a coming Sacrifice (Jesus) that all those things pointed towards.

As long as they had faith they were living the new covenant.

IntoTheCrimsonSky said:

Very true about Abraham. Although, technically David is under the old because the new had yet to be completely instituted. Jesus had to be sacrificed for all of the conditions of the new covenanct to fall into place. David was still being saved in the old one, technically.

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The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. The New Covenant was instituted from the very begining and has been in effect immediately after sin entered the world.

Christ dying on the cross ratified the New Covenant, not instituted.

Everyone (OT &NT) is saved by grace under the New Covenant. The Old Covenant was never meant to save but to point out man's needs for God enabling grace.

Granted even in the old covenant people were still saved by grace because they were unable to keep the law in its entirety..but they were still also expected to sacrifice and such when they broke it. Which is the main difference, isn't it? In the new we can come to God and ask forgiveness in Jesus' name, without needing to go through all of the formalities of sacrifice and such.

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The essence of the gospel is not about keeping the law in its entirety. It's about the character transformation.

When the OT believers sinned, they confessed their sins, sacrificed animals and by faith looked forward and believe the Messiah would come and die for their sins.

When the NT believers sin, they confess their sins. By faith they look backward and believe the Messiah came and died for their sins.

The two groups are saved the exact same way: by grace through faith.

Anyways...I have yet to see any scriptures that explicitly say the seal of God is the holy spirit.

You can not make a doctrine base on the translation of a single preposition.

honorthesabbath said:

Mankin--I wasn't talking about you discussing Adventism with your friends. We witness by what we do and what we say.

Most liberal SDA's keep Sabbath the way sunday keepers keep sunday. So it is your witness that I was referring to. This may be why your friends are not stirred by your actions.

And why did you feel compelled to bring up the trad vs prog argument?

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That is the most ignorant thing you can say. I keep the Sabbath as well as any trad.

Mankin said:

That is the most ignorant thing you can say. I keep the Sabbath as well as any trad.

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Wasn't that you who said plays video games on sabbath?

How is that keeping the sabbath holy and not doing thy own pleasure?

NightEternal said:

By all means, let us come off as beligerent and offensive as possible to people with our Adventism.

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Night--that is not what I meant and you know it. Let's try to remain civil.

OntheDL said:

Wasn't that you who said plays video games on sabbath?

How is that keeping the sabbath holy and not doing thy own pleasure?

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DL--yes, this is what I am getting at. The bible makes it clear that those who live righteously WILL be persecuted.

If our Christian lifestyle isn't stirring someones pot--then perhaps we are far too worldly to arouse their ire.

Just look at the example of Jesus. His life was perfect and many hated Him because of it.

Mankin said:

That is the most ignorant thing you can say. I keep the Sabbath as well as any trad.

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But do you keep it as well as Jesus did?

mva1985 said:

Honor, I agree with you about the Sabbath. One of the problems in Adventism today is that it is being diluted. Many Adventists are treating it just like a Sunday keeper treats Sunday.

Also, right now you probably won't get much argument about going to church on Sabbath when so many Sunday churches are offering a service on Saturday for the convenience of their church goers.

I have talked with Catholics who say "oh yeah I go to church on Saturday too."

I do believe that eventually the Sabbath will become the final test of those who are loyal to God. I don't think we are there yet, but we will be.

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So, is the Sabbath a salvic issue (or will it be) since it is considered the 'separating wall' and the 'final test of loyalty' in Adventism?

IntoTheCrimsonSky said:

It's a shame this has turned into a discussion about the Sabbath, as I never intended to say the Sabbath shouldn't be kept or anything. Simply that after reading Eph I had questions on whether it was the actual seal because those verses seem to jump out on me in my own study.

And yes, the New Covenant is found in the OT..But, as far as I'm seeing this seal bussiness seems to be contradicting itself if you look at the NT verses the OT. Which is impossible, because the Bible doesn't contradict..hense the question of two possible seals.

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Keep listening to the verses. The Holy Spirit will give you conviction!

In Christ alone...

honorthesabbath said:

Sarah--I also believe that just as EGW says--that when the time comes-the Sabbath message will come with such power that even those who think they have full understanding will be astounded at the revelation.

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What's the 'Sabbath message'?

Do you believe the Sabbath is a salvation issue (at the very least in the 'end')?

The Sabbath seal has not come to full accomplishment as yet, but when it does--I believe there will be only two camps in this world. Those who reject it and those who accept it.

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I believe in two 'camps' also: those who trust Jesus and those who don't. Quite a contrast, don't you think?

In Christ alone...

OntheDL said:

You can not make a doctrine base on the translation of a single preposition.

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There does not appear to be an actual preposition in there. Greek started without prepositions. The endings of nouns, or inflected forms allowed for various usage. Eventually prepositions were used to clarify because the forms could leave some room for interpretation. In NT Greek we see frequent prepositions. But we still find instances where there is no preposition and the inflected form of the noun serves to tell us the indication of the noun to the rest of the sentence. That is the case here.

The Greek noun is generally recognized to take the following cases: nominative, ablative, genitive, locative, instrumental, dative, accusative, vocative. These indicate different ways that the noun is used in the sentence.

However, while the noun can express these different meanings, each distinct case does NOT have its own ending, or inflected form. Therefore some forms actually have multiple possible meanings or cases. Here is how it generally breaks down, using just the endings of one type of Greek noun as an example:


οσ nominative
ου genitive/ablative
ῳ dative/ locative/ instrumental
ον accusative
ε vocative (sometimes same as nominative)

Now in this case we have an instrumental/dative/locative. It can mean with, by, in, indicate the direct object, etc. There are a number of shades that can come in. As is usually the case the context must determine what case is actually being used of the three. Some texts simply remain ambiguous.

To complicate things we also have a textual variant at the beginning of verse 14.

honorthesabbath said:

But do you keep it as well as Jesus did?

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The question is: Do you keep it EXACTLY as it was commanded to Israel (which they broke perpetually), and as EGW says it MUST be kept (not broken - EVER!!!)?

In Christ alone...