The Seal?

[honorthesabbath]

The Sabbath is called a sign in the Old Testament.

Now for those of you always referring to the "new" covenant. Let's remember that the new covenant IS something that is found and taught in several different places in the Old Testament.

It is NOT a New Testament thing.

Amen MVA--because actually th 'old' covenant only lasted about 40 days. And guess who broke it? haha

Not only that--but he covenant most refer to is the 'agreement' type. The 10c is the COMMANDED type--no agreement to keep it is required--it is simply COMMANDED by God to do so.

 

[honorthesabbath]

I acknowledge your experience Honor; however, I almost never share in it. I find people curious, open, warm, and nothing but pleasant when they find out I worship (as an SDA) on Sabbath.

Having said that I have no desire for them to do the same, so I'm equally curious, open, warm, and pleasant when it comes to asking questions about their path.

I guess experiences vary!

I hope you have a lovely Sabbath.

There are different 'paths'? I'm curious--could you expound?

 

[honorthesabbath]

Honor, I agree with you about the Sabbath. One of the problems in Adventism today is that it is being diluted. Many Adventists are treating it just like a Sunday keeper treats Sunday.

Also, right now you probably won't get much argument about going to church on Sabbath when so many Sunday churches are offering a service on Saturday for the convenience of their church goers.

I have talked with Catholics who say "oh yeah I go to church on Saturday too."

I do believe that eventually the Sabbath will become the final test of those who are loyal to God. I don't think we are there yet, but we will be.

Oh yes--I have seen this too. It's like--'see--we re keeping the 'real' Sabbath too". Of course--without really keeping it. Isn't tis an example of 'in the hand' service to God?

So we can see--God is indeed working on the hearts of His people who are in ignorance.

 

[tall73]

The Sabbath is called a sign in the Old Testament.

Now for those of you always referring to the "new" covenant. Let's remember that the new covenant IS something that is found and taught in several different places in the Old Testament.

It is NOT a New Testament thing.

When do you think the new covenant went into effect?

 

[tall73]

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.



This passage establishes it as a sign. But there is an important contextual element that seems to not have been mentioned in the context of this discussion.

http://christianforums.com/t6502816-the-sabbath-and-suzerainty-covenants-the-sign-of-loyalty.html

 

[Mankin]

Maybe the reason some are so hostile is because of all the crazies in Adventism and Adventist's hatred for Catholicism and Sunday keeping. My experience shows the opposite.

 

[Mankin]

All of my friends tend to be kind to me even though I'm an Adventist.

 

[honorthesabbath]

All of my friends tend to be kind to me even though I'm an Adventist.

Perhaps your brand of Adventism doesn't spark their ire.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Maybe the reason some are so hostile is because of all the crazies in Adventism and Adventist's hatred for Catholicism and Sunday keeping. My experience shows the opposite.

I think you missed the point.

 

[Mankin]

I don't talk with my friends about theology of Adventism. Please don't refer to it as a brand. Ultimately I think it will be progs running the church. If you look down through history the theologies of some churchs will astound you and what is considered fundamentalism now may have been considered somewhat liberal back then.

 

[Endium]

However, there are many who will be saved who are not Sabbath keepers..which is where my problem lies with it. It would seem more logical on the surface to be the Spirit, rather than the Law.

No one is saved by their observance of the Sabbath. Also, there will be those saved who do not keep the Sabbath. However, anyone who knowingly disregards what is right is committing a sin.

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17

 

[honorthesabbath]

I don't talk with my friends about theology of Adventism. Please don't refer to it as a brand. Ultimately I think it will be progs running the church. If you look down through history the theologies of some churchs will astound you and what is considered fundamentalism now may have been considered somewhat liberal back then.

Mankin--I wasn't talking about you discussing Adventism with your friends. We witness by what we do and what we say.

Most liberal SDA's keep Sabbath the way sunday keepers keep sunday. So it is your witness that I was referring to. This may be why your friends are not stirred by your actions.

And why did you feel compelled to bring up the trad vs prog argument?

 

[Xenon]

Most liberal SDA's keep Sabbath the way sunday keepers keep sunday. So it is your witness that I was referring to. This may be why your friends are not stirred by your actions.

That's not a very fair thing to say. I keep the sabbath the best that I can (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, no work, seek after God's pleasures instead of my own as per Isaiah 58) and not one of my friends has been interested in keeping it, even though all of them know how I keep it and why. Could I be a better witness? Certainly, and I pray that God will fill me with the spirit to do so. But it's not fair for us to judge such things.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Sorry for not replying to this post last night, got distracted and by the time I returned it was too late to respond.

well, if you hear on the new a man was killed with a gun or by a gun, does it make a big difference?

In that case, no. But also a gun is not possible of killing a person on its own, it requires someone to shoot it or cause it to go off. The Spirit on the other hand can do either.

If you were to see these two sentences, they can be taken very differently...

"That person was sealed by the Holy Spirit" and "That person was sealed with the Holy Spirit". Maybe I'm just being picky, but I would rarely assume the second one meant that the Spirit sealed them, rather that the Spirit is the seal itself. Or, of course, the Spirit is also sealed, which would change the with to be implying that the person was included to be sealed with the Spirit.

"My toaster was made by that company" or "My toaster was made with that company"? Totally different meanings.

I also tried looking up a bunch of different translations to see if there was variation. They all say with, and a few of them even say it more plainly that the Spirit is the seal (according to this text, I'm not referring to others that talk about the seal).

Eph 1:13 (Good News Bible) And you also became God's people when you heard the true message, the Good News that brought you salvation. You believed in Christ, and God put his stamp of ownership on you by giving you the Holy Spirit he had promised.

Eph 1:13 (English Standard Version) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

obviously I'm not the only one who's seeing that as meaning the Spirit is what we're sealed with.

You need to pray about it and see what the Lord impresses you by/with His words...

The following is a cut-n-paste of a short article I have on this...

Thanks for posting that, regardless. Good refresher of some of those details. Overall I do understand why the Sabbath is considered a seal, but I just cant get past that this passage alone seems to so clearly say that the Spirit is also a seal.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

No one is saved by their observance of the Sabbath. Also, there will be those saved who do not keep the Sabbath. However, anyone who knowingly disregards what is right is committing a sin.

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17

Very true. But, if the seal is supposed to mark His saved ones..how can those who do not keep the Sabbath be marked with it? They would be saved without the mark.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

It's a shame this has turned into a discussion about the Sabbath, as I never intended to say the Sabbath shouldn't be kept or anything. Simply that after reading Eph I had questions on whether it was the actual seal because those verses seem to jump out on me in my own study.

And yes, the New Covenant is found in the OT..But, as far as I'm seeing this seal bussiness seems to be contradicting itself if you look at the NT verses the OT. Which is impossible, because the Bible doesn't contradict..hense the question of two possible seals.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

I can tell you folks that from personal experience that NOTHING will spark the ire of other churches or the world any faster against you than for them to find out that you keep the 7th day Sabbath.

It makes no difference if you claim Christ as Saviour and that you exhibit the fruits of the Spirit. All that goes by the wayside when they find that you keep that Sabbath day. Why is that? Why does this day cause them so much consternation even among those who proclaim themselves Christians?

I think the answer is simple. Because that day has always been the dividing line between those who love Him those those who love Him not. (Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.)

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

But what about those who really DID/DO love Christ but didn't know or understand about the Sabbath's importance?

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now I understand that the context of this text is about idolatry, but the principle is the same. God is patient with ignorance. But I see Christians today who have heard about the 4th commandment fight against it with all their might. These are those whom I truly believe that Christ is referring to in Matt. 15:8.

So yes friends, there seems to be a power of division when it comes to the sign of the Sabbath loyalty question. I've also noticed that NO OTHER commandment has the power to bring such division among believers.

Have you ever heard anyone object to honoring their parents? What about the one about murdering? Or committing adultery? Nope--you won't find any non-Adventist preacher condemning those who honor those commandments. But not so with the 4th.

You see--even moral atheist's can keep most of God's laws dealing with our relationships with each other (the last 6). And even most Christians have no argument with the 3 commandments dealing with out love relationship with God. But OH BOY---when it comes to that dastardly Sabbath one--the fight is on. Again--why is that? Because nothing is so important to humans as their TIME. After all--we have so little of it.

The main complaint of kids for the past few generations is that their parents give them everything except their TIME. Time seems to be the plum line of the heart. You give your TIME to those you truly love. Or TIME to those projects you adore. But we do not give the TIME of day to those we dislike or those things we dislike.

The Sabbath is about TIME. Time spent with God on His special day that HE set aside for the quality TIME with His children. But the other unique thing about the Sabbath is that no one can claim it as especially theirs, because TIME belongs to everyone--equally. If God would have made His sign as a material object, then some wealthy person or nation could have grabbed it and claimed God's favor. So God in His wisdom made His sign of love and loyalty an entity unlike any other--it's about TIME. And isn't salvation about TIME? ETERNAL TIME?

Actually, I too have had positive experiences with Chrisitans who find out I keep the Sabbath. Only a couple bad ones, and they aren't actually the Christians. Rofl. That tends to go into the realm of it being silly to dedicate a day like that.

And believe me, when I have it my way I can be very strict with the Sabbath keeping. No NOTHING being done, really.

However, I have seen what you talk about too. And in regards to the commandment about other gods/idols. There's been a fair amount of heat in that direction, especially nowadays with such a wide understanding of many religions and an attempt to be supportive of them all.

And I do think we all have paths. God chooses unique ways to bring us to Him, along with some who are in other religions to end up bringing others within that religion to Him. I know, because i've been there. So uch of my witnessing power comes from my past in other faiths, and for that I think it was actually God's plan for me when He knew I wouldn't be brought up in a strict Christian moral run household.

 

[honorthesabbath]

Sarah--I also believe that just as EGW says--that when the time comes-the Sabbath message will come with such power that even those who think they have full understanding will be astounded at the revelation.

The Sabbath seal has not come to full accomplishment as yet, but when it does--I believe there will be only two camps in this world. Those who reject it and those who accept it.

 

[sentipente]

Honor, what is that "Sabbath message?" For example, does it involve telling us what minutiae can and cannot be done on the Sabbath?

 

[OntheDL]

Actually, I too have had positive experiences with Chrisitans who find out I keep the Sabbath. Only a couple bad ones, and they aren't actually the Christians. Rofl. That tends to go into the realm of it being silly to dedicate a day like that.

And believe me, when I have it my way I can be very strict with the Sabbath keeping. No NOTHING being done, really.

However, I have seen what you talk about too. And in regards to the commandment about other gods/idols. There's been a fair amount of heat in that direction, especially nowadays with such a wide understanding of many religions and an attempt to be supportive of them all.

And I do think we all have paths. God chooses unique ways to bring us to Him, along with some who are in other religions to end up bringing others within that religion to Him. I know, because i've been there. So uch of my witnessing power comes from my past in other faiths, and for that I think it was actually God's plan for me when He knew I wouldn't be brought up in a strict Christian moral run household.

Well, do you think anyone can be sealed by the spirit who knowingly break the law?

You can also study about the final sealing of God's people. The sabbath is a seal/mark that distinguishes the two groups. It is the key issue that seperates the two.

About the New Covenant...the bible says Abraham believed in God and it was counted onto righteousness. That is the new covenant of Grace.

Furthermore, from Hebrews 8 & 10, the new covenant is the writing of the law on the heart. David sang that the law was written on his heart. Wasn't he under the new covenant already?