The Seal?

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Hey Everyone,

I still have to pay more attention to my Remnant question/study, but had a question about this real quick.

If the seal is the Sabbath..What do these mean? They sound likethey are calling the Spirit the seal?

Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Thanks!

Blessings, Love, and a Happy Sabbath,
Sarah

 

[sentipente]

They mean that it is wrong to call the Sabbath the seal of God. Plain and simple.

 

[Endium]

Looks to me that it is saying that we are sealed by the Spirit.

 

[sentipente]

Looks to me that it is saying that we are sealed by the Spirit.

And how would the Spirit seal you with the Sabbath?

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Looks to me that it is saying that we are sealed by the Spirit.

The first verse that could fit with, but what about where it says "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"? That says with, not by.

 

[OntheDL]

The first verse that could fit with, but what about where it says "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"? That says with, not by.

Sarah,

Do you think a translation of a prepersition from greek to english will tell the whole story?

The law, specifically the sabbath commandment is the seal of God. The holy spirit is the sealing agent.

Isaiah 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

The hebrew word for seal is 'oth': meaning the seal, sign, mark.

Exodus 31 and Ezekiel 20 talk about the sign/seal/mark of God is the Sabbath.

Exodus 20
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
...
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.


Ezekiel 20
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Sabbath is the seal of God.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

Thanks, DL.

However, those verses above are the confusing ones. When I looked at it in my e-sword program the definition of seal in the verses in Eph seems to be very similar to that of the ones you mentioned. I'm still a little confused.

Are they different seals?

 

[Mankin]

This is speaking in New Covenant terms. Keeping the Sabbath won't save you so it is NOT God's seal. Receiving the Holy Spirit is God's seal for his children under the New Covenant.

 

[Mankin]

If the Law was the seal then we would not need Jesus. It is true that the New Covenant allows us to keep the Ten Commandments by love. But it goes beyond this by giving us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives each of us a special gift to use for Christ as illustrated by Paul.

 

[NightEternal]

Crimson, you have asked a very important question, one that is the catalyst for the journey of many out of the church.

You will have to study the issue for yourself. Personally, it has been a very, very long time since I have believed that the Sabbath is the seal of God. Probably over 10 years now. The proof-text, SDA spun 'presidential seal' explanation one hears in almost every evangelistic series is one that I held for a while when I was first in the church so long ago, but I have long since rejected it.

The Holy Spirit is not just the sealing agent, it IS the seal of God.

IMO of course.

 

[djconklin]

One dictionary had over 30 definitions of seal.

One seal is "of God" the other is "by the Holy Spirit."

 

[OntheDL]

Thanks, DL.

However, those verses above are the confusing ones. When I looked at it in my e-sword program the definition of seal in the verses in Eph seems to be very similar to that of the ones you mentioned. I'm still a little confused.

Are they different seals?

well, if you hear on the new a man was killed with a gun or by a gun, does it make a big difference?

You need to pray about it and see what the Lord impresses you by/with His words...

The following is a cut-n-paste of a short article I have on this...


Rev 14:6-9
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

In OT, sign and mark are the same word 'ot' or 'oth' (OT 226). It appeared 78 time in Hebrew. 'ot' is also translated to 'standard', 'token'.

- ot: a sign of time and seasons. (Gen 1:14)

- ot: a sign/mark/token by which a person or group is labeled characteristically.
Cain was marked by God for protection (Gen 4:15). Cain was not marked for approval. But God had mercy and compassion for him.
Ex 8:23 And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
Ex 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you,

- ot: a military banner (standard/flag).
Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house:
Job 21:29 Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,

- ot: a sign of covenant, token or reminder of duty.
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

Ex 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth:

- ot: a sign/token of truth.
Ex 3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

In Exd 31, Ezk 20, keeping the sabbath is a sign between God and His people:

Exodus 31
12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
...
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Ezekiel 20
11 And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
…
19 I am the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

The sabbath commandment is the sign/mark that signifies God Creatorship and Lordship.

In conclusion, the hebrew word 'ot' means:
-the sign/seal of God's creatorship.
-a reminder of our duty to the Lord.
-a distinguishing mark or a banner of His followers.
-a token of the New and eternal covenant.

We know mark of the beast is on the forehead or on the hand.

God also puts a mark/sign (hebrew: oth) on His people on their forehead and on their hand.

What is the sign/mark of God? The commandments.

Deut 11
8 Therefore shall ye keep all the commandments which I command you this day, that ye may be strong, and go in and possess the land, whither ye go to possess it;
...
13 And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
...
18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.


A special emphasis is given to sabbath. When the Lord rebuked Israel for their apostasy, polluting the sabbath was always mentioned seperately from breaking His commandments and despising His judgments.


Another way of understanding the seal (oth) of God is to understand the mark (oth) of beast. For if the mark of the beast is going to counterfeit the seal of God, it should in some ways bear resemblance.


"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians." ---The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908


"Q. How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
A. By the very act of changing the sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
Q. How prove you that?
A. Because by keeping Sunday, they acknowledge the Church's power to ordain feasts, and to command them under sin; and by not keeping the rest by her commanded, they again deny, in fact, the same power." --- The Douay Catechism (An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine) of 1649


"Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her;—she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?
A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week. If, then, he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?" ---A Doctrinal Catechism by Stephen Keenan, Imprimatur by John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York


"Distinctive of the Roman Catholic Church, Sunday Mass observance became a mark of a practicing Catholic."
--- Dictionary of the Liturgy, Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1989,


"The attendance at [Sunday] Mass is the mark of a practical Catholic. One who fails to attend is not worthy of the name. While all mortal sins involve great malice, there is attached to this sin a peculiar and unique malice." ---The Faith of Millions, by the Reverend John A. O'Brien, PH.D., Copyright 1938,

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. It could not have been otherwise as none in those days would have dreamed of doing anything in matters spiritual and ecclesiastical and religious without her. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical authority in religious things". ---Letter to Cardinal Gibbons, November 11, 1895, from C.F. Thomas.


"The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God." --- The Catholic Record, London, Ontario Canada, September 1, 1923


"The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate (change) laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." --- Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop.

"... Princes and magistrates are to be admonished and exhorted to lend the sanction and support of their authority to the pastors of the Church, particularly in upholding and extending the worship of God [on Sunday], and in commanding obedience to the spiritual injunctions of the pastor.
With regard to the exposition of this Commandment, the faithful are to be carefully taught in what it accords with, and in what it differs from the others, in order that they may understand why Christians observe not the Sabbath but the Lord's day."---The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Issued by order of Pope Pius V


"#66 ... In this matter, my predecessor Pope Leo XIII in his Encyclical Rerum Novarum spoke of Sunday rest as a worker's right which the State must guarantee.
#67 ... Therefore, also in the particular circumstances of our own time, Christians will naturally strive to ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy. ---Apostolic Letter Dies Domini, Pope John Paul II, 31 May, 1998

 

[mva1985]

Hey Everyone,

I still have to pay more attention to my Remnant question/study, but had a question about this real quick.

If the seal is the Sabbath..What do these mean? They sound likethey are calling the Spirit the seal?

Eph. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Thanks!

Blessings, Love, and a Happy Sabbath,
Sarah

They mean that it is wrong to call the Sabbath the seal of God. Plain and simple.

Looks to me that it is saying that we are sealed by the Spirit.

And how would the Spirit seal you with the Sabbath?

Those verses talk about being sealed by the Holy Spirit - which is totally different then the Sabbath being defined as a seal or sign.

 

[IntoTheCrimsonSky]

If the Law was the seal then we would not need Jesus. It is true that the New Covenant allows us to keep the Ten Commandments by love. But it goes beyond this by giving us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives each of us a special gift to use for Christ as illustrated by Paul.

Crimson, you have asked a very important question, one that is the catalyst for the journey of many out of the church.

You will have to study the issue for yourself. Personally, it has been a very, very long time since I have believed that the Sabbath is the seal of God. Probably over 10 years now. The proof-text, SDA spun 'presidential seal' explanation one hears in almost every evangelistic series is one that I held for a while when I was first in the church so long ago, but I have long since rejected it.

The Holy Spirit is not just the sealing agent, it IS the seal of God.

IMO of course.

I must say that, in theory, this does technically make sense. I mean, when you are part of the New Covenant you are saved by faith in Jesus, which results in the gift of the Holy Spirit. Thusly those that are saved would be those with the Spirit in them.

However, there are many who will be saved who are not Sabbath keepers..which is where my problem lies with it. It would seem more logical on the surface to be the Spirit, rather than the Law.

Of course, this is just on the surface. I do have more study to do although I've studied the seal before. To be honest, I believed it was the Sabbath untill I was reading Eph. for the first time this week and saw those verses..and a little red light went off in my head, saying "Wait a sec..this doesn't fit.". Especially Eph 1:13-14. Which is what, after a few days of considering and prayer, lead me to asking this here.

 

[sentipente]

The proof-text, SDA spun 'presidential seal' explanation one hears in almost every evangelistic series is one that I held for a while when I was first in the church so long ago, but I have long since rejected it.

I rejected it when I realised how illogical it was to suggest that something men developed was the model for God's seal instead of the other way around.

 

[honorthesabbath]

This is speaking in New Covenant terms. Keeping the Sabbath won't save you so it is NOT God's seal. Receiving the Holy Spirit is God's seal for his children under the New Covenant.

Mankin--keeping the Sabbath has NEVER saved anyone--old or new testaments. It's only ever been GRACE that has saved man from his sins.

The keeping of any of the 10c is a sign of LOYALTY and OBEDIENCE, of a salvation that has already taken place by faith in the grace promise of God.

 

[honorthesabbath]

I can tell you folks that from personal experience that NOTHING will spark the ire of other churches or the world any faster against you than for them to find out that you keep the 7th day Sabbath.

It makes no difference if you claim Christ as Saviour and that you exhibit the fruits of the Spirit. All that goes by the wayside when they find that you keep that Sabbath day. Why is that? Why does this day cause them so much consternation even among those who proclaim themselves Christians?

I think the answer is simple. Because that day has always been the dividing line between those who love Him those those who love Him not. (Mt 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.)

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

But what about those who really DID/DO love Christ but didn't know or understand about the Sabbath's importance?

Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Now I understand that the context of this text is about idolatry, but the principle is the same. God is patient with ignorance. But I see Christians today who have heard about the 4th commandment fight against it with all their might. These are those whom I truly believe that Christ is referring to in Matt. 15:8.

So yes friends, there seems to be a power of division when it comes to the sign of the Sabbath loyalty question. I've also noticed that NO OTHER commandment has the power to bring such division among believers.

Have you ever heard anyone object to honoring their parents? What about the one about murdering? Or committing adultery? Nope--you won't find any non-Adventist preacher condemning those who honor those commandments. But not so with the 4th.

You see--even moral atheist's can keep most of God's laws dealing with our relationships with each other (the last 6). And even most Christians have no argument with the 3 commandments dealing with out love relationship with God. But OH BOY---when it comes to that dastardly Sabbath one--the fight is on. Again--why is that? Because nothing is so important to humans as their TIME. After all--we have so little of it.

The main complaint of kids for the past few generations is that their parents give them everything except their TIME. Time seems to be the plum line of the heart. You give your TIME to those you truly love. Or TIME to those projects you adore. But we do not give the TIME of day to those we dislike or those things we dislike.

The Sabbath is about TIME. Time spent with God on His special day that HE set aside for the quality TIME with His children. But the other unique thing about the Sabbath is that no one can claim it as especially theirs, because TIME belongs to everyone--equally. If God would have made His sign as a material object, then some wealthy person or nation could have grabbed it and claimed God's favor. So God in His wisdom made His sign of love and loyalty an entity unlike any other--it's about TIME. And isn't salvation about TIME? ETERNAL TIME?

 

[Avonia]

I can tell you folks that from personal experience that NOTHING will spark the ire of other churches or the world any faster against you than for them to find out that you keep the 7th day Sabbath.

I acknowledge your experience Honor; however, I almost never share in it. I find people curious, open, warm, and nothing but pleasant when they find out I worship (as an SDA) on Sabbath.

Having said that I have no desire for them to do the same, so I'm equally curious, open, warm, and pleasant when it comes to asking questions about their path.

I guess experiences vary!

I hope you have a lovely Sabbath.

 

[mva1985]

The Sabbath is called a sign in the Old Testament.

Now for those of you always referring to the "new" covenant. Let's remember that the new covenant IS something that is found and taught in several different places in the Old Testament.

It is NOT a New Testament thing.

 

[mva1985]

Honor, I agree with you about the Sabbath. One of the problems in Adventism today is that it is being diluted. Many Adventists are treating it just like a Sunday keeper treats Sunday.

Also, right now you probably won't get much argument about going to church on Sabbath when so many Sunday churches are offering a service on Saturday for the convenience of their church goers.

I have talked with Catholics who say "oh yeah I go to church on Saturday too."

I do believe that eventually the Sabbath will become the final test of those who are loyal to God. I don't think we are there yet, but we will be.