The Scriptural documentation of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church and its timing

jgr said:

You'll have to argue (posthumously) with Bro. John F. Walvoord about that. I was merely quoting him.

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Really no need to as either way is fits that the harpazo would happen at any as there is no coming apostasy as it has already come

jgr said:

Nope.

Context is subjective, i.e. subject to interpretation.

Grammar is objective. That means that it is defined by rules. Thus there are rules of grammar which are associated with every language.

That which is objective will always take precedence over, and can be used to define and clarify, that which is subjective. In language, this means that the objective rules of grammar can be used to define and clarify the subjective interpretations of context.

The essential precedence of objectivity over subjectivity is evident in innumerable aspects of life, and in the laws and rules of the universe. Chaos would result if this were not true. If you formulated your own subjective interpretation about the context of gravity, and concluded that gravity did not in fact exist, you could easily test your subjective interpretation of its context (many have) from the top of a cliff. Would you? I presume not. Why wouldn't you? Because you've become aware that the objective rule of gravity will always take precedence over your subjective interpretation of its context.

And when the objective rules of grammar are applied to the subjective interpretation of the context of the passage in Daniel 9, they define and clarify the reality that all of the "he's" in Daniel 9:27 have an antecedent of Messiah the Prince.

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Wrong just so wrong as Context is Much more important as it makes no difference how good your grammar is when you take things out of Context
Context is of the utmost Importance !

seventysevens said:

Wrong just so wrong as Context is Much more important as it makes no difference how good your grammar is when you take things out of Context
Context is of the utmost Importance !

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I've described the interrelationship between grammar and context at some length.

You'll have to advance a better argument than "wrong just so wrong".

Please don't jump off that cliff.

jgr said:

You'll have to argue (posthumously) with Bro. John F. Walvoord about that. I was merely quoting him.

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The rapture/resurrection is in 1thessalonians4. Then the peace and safety illusion in 1thessalonians5 as before the Day of the Lord and the wrath therein. The rapture/resurrection again in verses 9-11, not appointed unto wrath.

Then in 2thesslaonians2, the two things to take place right before the Day of the Lord; the falling away and the person going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God. And the taking out of the way in verse 7, before all of the bad things take place regarding that person as the Day of the Lord begins.

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The person becomes the King of Israel, appearing that the Jews were right all along concerning Jesus. And many in Christianity fall away, during the apparent messianic reign of peace and safety

Three years or so into his reign, the perceived messiah gets to believing in his heart that the has achieved God-hood. Goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - triggering the Day of the Lord.

rapture/resurrection has to be before the Day of the Lord begins. How far before is unknown.

I was once a pre-trib advocate but had many convictions about it and frankly, the thing that was most disturbing is that there were NO scriptures that could be used literally to verify or prove it. I do believe God will, as He promised, protect those that are His and that we, Christians, believers, etc are not pre-destined for His Wrath and thus "The Church" and Christians, believers, will not be left on earth to endure the hardships that will occur as God releases His Wrath upon earth during the Day of the Lord. My biggest problem with the Pre-Tribulation view of the Rapture is as follows. If the Rapture is the great hope of the Church and is scriptural, which is it, then why can't pre-tribulation point to and cite the section of Scripture where Christ, himself, taught about the Rapture? Pre-Trib advocates will attempt to construct, by taking some scriptures figuratively and symbolically to refer to a Rapture before the 7 year period that is often referred to as the Tribulation period but nowhere can they point to the Gospels and say here is where Christ told us about the Rapture. There is through a passage of Scripture where Christ did teach and tell the disciples about the coming Rapture but it's so often dismissed by pre-trib advocates as being the 2nd coming rather than the Rapture and that is in Matthew 24:31.

If there was ever a section or passage of Scripture that gave Christ the opportunity to tell about and describe the Rapture then it's Matthew 24 where Christ, in direct reply to a question about the end times, gave a very detailed account of what to expect. I submit that from this recorded teaching, in Matthew 24, by Christ, the Disciples took those teachings and delivered them to the Churches and from this is where the teachings of Paul to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians came from. I do believe in a Rapture and the very Rapture that Christ, himself, taught about in Matthew 31. I also believe that this Rapture happens during the 7 year period, not at the beginning when the peace treaty is signed with Israel but that the Rapture occurs sometime after the abomination of desolation in the Temple.

If you are going to teach and believe in a pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture then first start with Christ and please cite book, chapter, and verse where Christ taught about a pre-Trib Rapture? I do believe in a Rapture that will remove Christians/believers from earth ahead of God's Wrath, but nowhere did God promise that He would protect man from man's wrath nor the wrath of Antichrist which I believe is detailed, also in Matthew 24 and also detailed in Revelation chapter 6.

Douggg said:

The rapture/resurrection is in 1thessalonians4. Then the peace and safety illusion in 1thessalonians5 as before the Day of the Lord and the wrath therein. The rapture/resurrection again in verses 9-11, not appointed unto wrath.

Then in 2thesslaonians2, the two things to take place right before the Day of the Lord; the falling away and the person going into the temple, sitting claiming to be God. And the taking out of the way in verse 7, before all of the bad things take place regarding that person as the Day of the Lord begins.

______________________________________________________________________________

The person becomes the King of Israel, appearing that the Jews were right all along concerning Jesus. And many in Christianity fall away, during the apparent messianic reign of peace and safety

Three years or so into his reign, the perceived messiah gets to believing in his heart that the has achieved God-hood. Goes into the temple, sits, claims to be God - triggering the Day of the Lord.

rapture/resurrection has to be before the Day of the Lord begins. How far before is unknown.

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The falling away began in the fourth century.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the "holy" Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one which would ultimately descend into apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

GBRK said:

I was once a pre-trib advocate but had many convictions about it and frankly, the thing that was most disturbing is that there were NO scriptures that could be used literally to verify or prove it. I do believe God will, as He promised, protect those that are His and that we, Christians, believers, etc are not pre-destined for His Wrath and thus "The Church" and Christians, believers, will not be left on earth to endure the hardships that will occur as God releases His Wrath upon earth during the Day of the Lord. My biggest problem with the Pre-Tribulation view of the Rapture is as follows. If the Rapture is the great hope of the Church and is scriptural, which is it, then why can't pre-tribulation point to and cite the section of Scripture where Christ, himself, taught about the Rapture? Pre-Trib advocates will attempt to construct, by taking some scriptures figuratively and symbolically to refer to a Rapture before the 7 year period that is often referred to as the Tribulation period but nowhere can they point to the Gospels and say here is where Christ told us about the Rapture. There is through a passage of Scripture where Christ did teach and tell the disciples about the coming Rapture but it's so often dismissed by pre-trib advocates as being the 2nd coming rather than the Rapture and that is in Matthew 24:31.

If there was ever a section or passage of Scripture that gave Christ the opportunity to tell about and describe the Rapture then it's Matthew 24 where Christ, in direct reply to a question about the end times, gave a very detailed account of what to expect. I submit that from this recorded teaching, in Matthew 24, by Christ, the Disciples took those teachings and delivered them to the Churches and from this is where the teachings of Paul to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians came from. I do believe in a Rapture and the very Rapture that Christ, himself, taught about in Matthew 31. I also believe that this Rapture happens during the 7 year period, not at the beginning when the peace treaty is signed with Israel but that the Rapture occurs sometime after the abomination of desolation in the Temple.

If you are going to teach and believe in a pre-Tribulation timing of the Rapture then first start with Christ and please cite book, chapter, and verse where Christ taught about a pre-Trib Rapture? I do believe in a Rapture that will remove Christians/believers from earth ahead of God's Wrath, but nowhere did God promise that He would protect man from man's wrath nor the wrath of Antichrist which I believe is detailed, also in Matthew 24 and also detailed in Revelation chapter 6.

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The majority of Matthew 24 is Christ's literal description of events that would occur in the period leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. These are confirmed both scripturally and historically.

DECEIVERS

Matthew: "And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you, For many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (24:4,5).

Mark: "And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you; For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many" (13:5,6).

Luke: "And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived; for many shall come in my name saying, I am Christ, and the time draweth near; go ye not therefore after them" (21:8).

Did such deceivers or false Christs arise and deceive many in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem? Yes.

According to Josephus, the noted Jewish historian, twelve years after our Saviour's death, a certain impostor named Theudas persuaded a great multitude to follow him to the river Jordan which he claimed would divide for their passage. At the time of Felix (who is mentioned in the book of Acts), the country of the Jews was filled with impostors who Felix had put to death EVERY DAY—a statement which indicates that there were "many" of such in those days.

An Egyptian who "pretended to be a prophet" gathered 30,000 men, claiming that he would show "how, at his command, the walls of Jerusalem would fall down."

Another deceiver was Simon, a sorcerer, who led people to believe he was the great power of God (See Acts 8). According to Irenaeus, Simon claimed to be the Son of God and creator of angels. Jerome says that he claimed to be the Word of God, the Almighty. Justin relates that he went to Rome and was acclaimed as a god by his magical powers.

Origen mentions a certain wonder-worker, Dositheus, who claimed he was the Christ foretold by Moses. Another deceiver in those days was Barchochebas who, according to Jerome, claimed to vomit flames. Bar-jesus is mentioned in Acts 13:6 as a sorcerer and false prophet. These are examples of the deceivers of whom history says there were "a great number," and of whom Jesus had prophesied that there would be "many."

WARS AND RUMORS OF WARS

Matthew: "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" (24:6,7).

Mark: "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled; for such things must needs be, but the end is not yet, For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" (13:7, 8).

Luke: "But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified; for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by [immediately]. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (21:9,10).

We are told that when Jesus gave this prophecy, the Roman Empire was experiencing a general peace within its borders. Jesus explained to his disciples that they would be hearing of wars, rumors of wars, and commotions. And did they? Yes. Within a short time the Empire was filled with strife, insurrection, and wars.

Before the fall of Jerusalem, four Emperors came to violent deaths within the space of 18 months. According to the historian Suetonius (who lived during the latter part of the first century and the beginning of the second), Nero "drove a dagger into his throat.'' Galba was run down by horsemen. A soldier cut off his head and "thrusting his thumb into the mouth," carried the horrid trophy about. Otho "stabbed himself" in the breast. Vitellius was killed by slow torture and then "dragged by a hook into the Tiber." We can understand that such fate falling on the Emperors would naturally spread distress and insecurity through the Empire.

In the Annals of Tacitus, a Roman who wrote a history which covers the period prior to 70 A. D., we find such expressions as these: "Disturbances in Germany," "commotions in Africa," "commotions in Thrace," "insurrections in Gaul," "intrigues among the Parthians," "the war in Britain," "war in Armenia."

Among the Jews, the times became turbulent. In Seleucia, 50,000 Jews were killed. There was an uprising against them in Alexandria. In a battle between the Jews and Syrians in Caesarea, 20,000 were killed. During these times, Caligula ordered his statue placed in the temple at Jerusalem. The Jews refused to do this and lived in constant fear that the Emperor's armies would be sent into Palestine. This fear became so real that some of them did not even bother to till their fields.

But though there would be wars, rumours of wars, and commotions, Jesus told his disciples: "See that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet." The word "end" that is used here is not the same Greek word as in the expression "end of the world." As Barnes says, the end here referred to is "the end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of Jerusalem."

Wars, rumors of wars, and commotions were of a general nature. These things were not signs of the end; to the contrary, they were given to show that the end was NOT yet. None of these things would be the sign which would cause the disciples to flee into the mountains.

FAMINES, PESTILENCES, EARTHQUAKES

Matthew. "And there shall be famines and pestilences, and earthquakes in divers places, all these are the beginning of sorrows (24:7,8).

Mark: "And there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles. These are the beginning of sorrows" (13:8).

Luke: "And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights" (21:11).

The Bible records that there was famine "throughout all the world...in the days of Claudius Caesar (Acts 11:28). Judea was especially hard hit by famine. "The disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea" (verse 29). Paul's instructions concerning this "collection [of fruit] for the saints" is recorded in First Corinthians 16:1-5; Rom. 15:25-28.

Historians such as Suetonius and others mention famine during those years. Tacitus speaks of a "failure in the crops, and a famine consequent thereupon." Eusebius also mentions famines during this time in Rome, Judea, and Greece. Yes, there were famines in those years before the fall of Jerusalem.

Along with famines, Jesus mentioned pestilence; that is, plagues, the spread of disease, epidemics. Famine and pestilence, of course, go hand in hand. When people do not have proper food or insufficient food, pestilence results. Suetonius wrote of "pestilence" at Rome in the days of Nero which was so severe that "within the space of one autumn there died no less than 30,000 persons." Josephus records that pestilences raged in Babylonia in A. D. 40. Tacitus tells of pestilences in Italy in A. D. 65. Yes, there were pestilences in those years before the destruction of Jerusalem.

During this period, Jesus said there would also be earthquakes in many places. Tacitus mentions earthquakes at Rome. He wrote that "Frequent earthquakes occurred, by which many houses were thrown down" and that "twelve populous cities of Asia fell in ruins from an earthquake."

Seneca, writing in the year 58 A. D., said: "How often have cities of Asia and Achaea fallen with one fatal shock! how many cities have been swallowed up in Syria! how many in Macedonia! how often has Cyprus been wasted by this calamity ! how often has Paphos become a ruin! News has often been brought us of the demolition of whole cities at once." He mentions the earthquake at Campania during the reign of Nero. In 60 A.D., Hierapous, Colosse, and Laodicea were overthrown—Laodicea being so self-sufficient that it recovered without the Imperial aid furnished other cities. In 63 A.D,, the city of Pompeii was greatly damaged by earthquake. There were earthquakes in Crete, Apamea, Smyrna, Miletus, Chios, Samos, and Judea. Earthquakes in divers places.

PERSECUTION AGAINST THE DISCIPLES

Matthew: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.., And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (24:9-12).

Mark: "They shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten; and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony.., whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak but the Holy Ghost... And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (13:9-13).

Luke: "They shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. And it shall turn to you for a testimony...I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist...and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake" (21:12-17).

The book of Acts gives a complete account of how the disciples were persecuted in the very ways Jesus had predicted. Let us take, for example, Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). They were brought before "rulers" (verses 5-7). And it turned into an opportunity to testify. Peter explained that "there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (verse 12). They were given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay, for the men of the council "marveled" (verse 13). They were then commanded "not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus" (verse 18). As Jesus had said, they were hated for his name's sake.

The same things are seen in Acts 5. Certain authorities "laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (verse 18). Later they were brought "before the council" (verse 27) and told to answer for continuing to teach in the name of Jesus (verse 28). Again they had opportunity to testify (verses 29-32). They were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41).

Or take Acts 6. There arose certain ones of the "synagogue" that disputed with Steven. "And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the spirit by which he spoke" (verses 9,10). Persecution resulted and he was brought into the "council " and questioned (verse 12). Again there was the opportunity to testify, the words of that testimony being given in Acts 7. Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). Jesus had said that some of them would be killed.

Notice Acts 8. "There was a great persecution against the church." Christians were put in "prison", but the result was that the word was preached (verses 1-4).

In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into "prison." But it turned into an opportunity to testify and the Philippian jailor and his family were converted as a result (verses 22-34). In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Christians were "imprisoned and beat in every Synagogue."

In Acts 24, Paul was brought before Felix, the governor, and testified. He was given a mouth of wisdom which his adversaries could not gainsay—though they obtained an orator to speak against him. Paul's words even made Felix to "tremble." In Acts 25 and 26, Paul was brought before king Agrippa, the chief captains, and the principal men of the city. He was given a mouth of wisdom, for Agrippa said to Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (verse 28).

Jesus said the disciples would be afflicted, beaten, imprisoned; they would be hated for his name's sake and some would be killed; they would be brought before councils, rulers, and kings, for a testimony; they would be given a mouth of wisdom which their adversaries could not gainsay. Surely these things came to pass in those years—unmistakably fulfilled in every detail.

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many ...but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:11,13). Peter, who was present when Jesus gave this prophecy (Mk. 13:3), later wrote about "false prophets" that had risen and of "many" that followed their pernicious ways (2 Peter 2). John, who also heard Jesus give this prophecy, recorded the fulfillment: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world" (l John 4:1). "Many deceivers are entered into the world" (2 John 7).

Paul also spoke of "false apostles, deceitful workers" (2 Cor. 11:13). He mentioned Hymenaeus and Philetus who taught false doctrines and overthrew the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:17, 18). By the time of his epistle to Titus, there were "many...deceivers ...who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not" (Titus 1:10, 11).

The waters of truth were muddied by betrayals, false prophets, iniquity, and the love of many waxing cold. "But he that shall endure [such things] until the end, the same shall be saved" (Mt. 24:13)—both now and hereafter. We understand "end" here in a general sense, for unlike the use of this word in verses 6 and 14, this reference does not have the definite article in the Greek text.

GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED TO THE NATIONS

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then [not until then] shall the end come" (Mt. 24:14). Unless we take this verse clear out of its setting, "the end" in view here is the end or destruction which was to come upon Jerusalem and the temple. This was the question that Jesus was answering in the verses before, and the verses that follow are still speaking about Jerusalem and Judea. Jerusalem would be destroyed, but "first" the gospel would be preached unto all nations (Mk. 13:10).

It was a tremendous prophecy. Picture the scene. Here on the mount of Olives, Jesus was speaking these words to seemingly insignificant men. Who would have supposed that the names of these humble men would become known around the world and that even in our day—almost 2,000 years later—the seeds of truth that they planted would still be producing fruit? Who would have supposed that this unpopular gospel that Christ committed to these men would ever spread beyond that immediate area? Such a vast preaching program unto all nations seemed almost impossible of fulfillment. But it was fulfilled, and in a very real sense the gospel did go to all nations before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D..

On the day of Pentecost when the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit, there were present in Jerusalem "devout men, out of every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5). They heard the gospel preached by Peter and 3,000 were converted that day. Many of these, no doubt, returned to their various countries and preached the gospel.

Later when persecution came against the church, the believers at Jerusalem were scattered and "went every where preaching the word", throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria (Acts 8:1,4). Philip took the message to the city of Samaria with great results (verses 5-8). Later he was directed to a high ranking government official from Ethiopia who was gloriously converted (verses 26-40). It is believed that this man took the message to the continent of Africa and many were converted because of his influential testimony.

Peter took the message to the Gentiles at the house of Cornelius, an event that was a turning point in the missionary activities of the church (Acts 10, 11). The book of Acts gives a sketch of the mighty missionary work that advanced rapidly.

The message spread to Rome. By the time of Nero, the Christians had grown so numerous that they aroused the jealousy of the government. The story of the great fire in Rome in 64 A. D. —for which the Christians were falsely blamed—is well known. In writing to the Christians at Rome, Paul opens his epistle by saying, "Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world" (Rom. 1:8), and his closing words talk about the gospel as having been "made known to all nations for the obedience of faith" (16:26).

Concerning even far away England, Newton says: "There is absolute certainty that Christianity was planted in this country in the days of the apostles, before the destruction of Jerusalem." Eusebius and also Theodoret inform us that the apostles preached the gospel in all the world and some of them "passed beyond the ocean to the Britannic isles."

By the time Paul wrote his letter to the Colossians, he could say: 'The gospel...is come unto you, as it is in all the world" (Col. 1:6). Likewise, in verse 23, he mentions '"the gospel which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven."

By 70 A. D., the gospel had gone forth to the world for a witness. No longer was God's message to man confined to one nation or race.


Source: "Great Prophecies of the Bible" by Ralph Woodrow

Quasar92 said:

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.


Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thess.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

A look at 1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

The precise timing of the rapture of the Church in 2 Thess.2:1-8:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thess.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the Antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] WILL NOT COME, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "TO DEPART, or DEPARTURE." meaning, the RAPTURE of the Church occurs FIRST, BEFORE THE DAY OF LORD] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The Antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [DEPARTURE] will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By: Thomas Ice, PhD
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the word, "discessio," meaning "DEPARTURE." Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thess.1:10; 1 Thess.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5/

The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ:

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2009/12/19 ... f-t/#post0

All parenthetics mine.

God Bless!

Quasar92

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Quasar92 said:

You have been given the Scriptural facts pertaining to the pre-trib rapture of the Church and I am not the slightest bi interested in what you think, until you show me proper qualifications to present them.

Show me your Scriptural support for whatever you think pertains to the 24 elders around the throne of God in Revelation. And just what is your point in their getting thto heaven before John?

Review the Biblical facts pertaining to the identity of the 24 Elders, in the following:

Who are the twenty four Elders around the throne of God in Rev.4:4 ?

The twenty four Elders around the throne of God, represent the twenty four courses of the Levitical priesthood, with one priest for each course seated on each of the twenty four thrones.

As recorded in 1 Chr.24:7-18. In Jer.33:17-18: "For this is what the Lord says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, NOR WILL THE PRIESTS, who are Levites ever fail to have before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.'" See also 2 Sam.7 for God's promise to David.

There are many who attempt to identify them as the twelve apostles and twelve of the old testament saints, but there is nothing in the Bible to support this theory or any of the others, except the one above.


Quasa92r

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Greetings Qusar92:
I have many questions about Your posting about what You say is the Lord's return for His Church.

First: You make he assumption that these scriptures which You give are pertaining to everyone who is saved: By man's standard. You say that He will gather His Elect from one end of the heavens to the other. What heavens? There are seven of Them.

Then You say: How did those Elect get into heaven? The Elect are always in position to be put into the heavenly realm with God and his Christ Jesus. The Elect of God are elected because they follow Christ Jesus spiritually and not man's teachings. You are correct; You are saying this, not scriptures. Then You jump to John 14:2-4 & 28. There it says that Jesus was going to prepare a place for Them, not the Elect. This means that Jesus was talking directly to His disciples, not everyone, everywhere, for all times.

Jesus said:”You know the place where I am going. What is that place that They new of? It was One of The mansions which was set aside for all the disciples, not for everyone. This is why He told Them their were many mansions set aside. They were to have one and Others, other places.

Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: word and converted Jews.

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that You should be ignorant of this mystery, lest You should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

This means that what the apostle Paul wrote was centered on the Gentiles and converted Jews, not to Israel. To take what was written about Israel and for Israel is to confuse scripture; and leads to more misunderstanding of Them.

You then say that because of what is stated in 2 Cor 5:8. I give 2 Cor 5:5-21.

2Co 5:5-21 Now He that has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while We are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Therefore we labor, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of Him. For We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Here is given a judgment after leaving this fleshly body and appearing before Christ Jesus. This means that the guaranty that so many use is a false one. For ALL JUDGMENT is by Christ Jesus.

The Ministry of Reconciliation

Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that you may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constrains us; because We thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Therefore, henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yes, though We have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation; That is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto Them; and has committed unto Us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by Us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be you reconciled to God. For He has made Him to be sin for Us, who knew no sin; that We might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Therefore it is not – We all go to Him-. Paul had His confidence in His resurrection to Christ Jesus. How many today can say that when so much bickering is ocuring in the Denominations? Now for Your statement were You said: It is a conclusive fact is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on Earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for Those of us waiting for His appearance. Let us consider how long ago Jesus was taken up to His Father in the heavenly Throne. Jesus died on the cross in A.D. 33. Now that was 1985 years ago. Will those today have to wait another 1985 years? Is this waiting for the false rapture have any merit? No, it has no place in the scriptures. Jesus told His disciples that They would see the destruction of Jerusalem and the Synagog there.

John 14:2-4 was given as a reference to the Lord's return. Again, Jesus was talking to His disciples, not to everyone throughout the ages! He told THEM that He was coming back to THEM, not others. He told Them that They would be where He is; not all people for all ages. There was already one resurrection at Jesus death.

Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when He had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the Spirit. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Now for what is stated in Your other part of Your writing about going to be with Jesus.

1Th 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

This does not say that them, shall be raised up with Him, He will bring Them with Him. This puts the events in the times of the disciples and apostles, not in a future time. Those who are waiting now will have a big surprise coming when They discover the truth!

When one dies in this age, they are either in The Body of Christ or are not. That is decided by God. Jesus died on the cross according to the Bible scriptures, and arose on the third day in spiritual form. The resurrection which occurred at His death was the first resurrection. The next resurrection is at man kinds death today. There is no need for Him to come back now until the very end of this creation is completed and the New Jerusalem set up on the Earth.

Then is given this statement. “After that, we whop are alive and remain will be caught up together with Them t meet the Lord in the sky. The big question is this: Are we going to remain with Paul and the others to be caught up in the sky? No hardly.

As for God intervening in the affairs of man; God has given to man His choice of his actions. Surely God can intervene if He chooses to. God does set up Rulers on Earth and takes Them down.

Consider the following verses of scripture.

The Parable of the Weeds Explained

Mat 13:36-43 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Explain unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

He answered and said unto them, He that sows the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth His angels (See Revelation), and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who has understanding to hear, let him hear.

There is much more that could be added here, however, I stop here and let those who are truly seeking the truth of the scriptures to do their home work.


Andy Centek

jgr said:

I've described the interrelationship between grammar and context at some length.
You'll have to advance a better argument than "wrong just so wrong".

Please don't jump off that cliff.

Click to expand...

Here are examples that are entirely copy/paste examples of the definitions of grammar and context - very straight forward - it really doesn't need any more of an explanation.

Grammar

noun
the study of the way the sentences of a language are constructed; morphology and syntax.
Generative Grammar. a device, as a body of rules, whose output is all of the sentences that are permissible in a given language, while excluding all those that are not permissible.
: the study of the classes of words, their inflections (see inflection 3), and their functions and relations in the sentence
b : a study of what is to be preferred and what avoided in inflection (see inflection 3) and syntax (see syntax 1)
2 a : the characteristic system of inflections (see inflection 3) and syntax of a language
b : a system of rules that defines the grammatical structure of a language
3 a : a grammar textbook
b : speech or writing evaluated according to its conformity to grammatical rules

appalled at the bad grammar of college students

4 : the principles or rules of an art, science, or technique

a grammar of the theater

; also : a set of such principles or rules
Grammar is the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences.
He doesn't have mastery of the basic rules of grammar.

===================================================

Context :
noun
1.the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect:

You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs : environment, setting
the historical context of the war
Examples of context in a Sentence

… it was Dickens who first used the word 'detective' in a literary context … —John Mullan, How Novels Work, 2006

Entrepreneurship and civil freedoms depend on a context of civil order, predictability, and individual security. —Susan L. Woodward, Balkan Tragedy, 1995

… the old building, its original acre, inside its high outer wall, was immune to change, out of context and out of time. —Harriet Doerr, The Tiger in the Grass, 1995

We need to look at the event within the larger context of world history.

The book puts these events in their proper historical and social contexts.

We need to consider these events in context.
the situation within which something exists or happens, and that can help explain it:
the text or speech that comes immediately before and after a particular phrase or piece of text and helps to explain its meaning:

the influences and events related to a particular event or situation:
the text or speech that comes immediately before and after a particular phrase or piece of text and that influence how it is used and what it means

seventysevens said:

Here are examples that are entirely copy/paste examples of the definitions of grammar and context - very straight forward - it really doesn't need any more of an explanation.

Grammar

noun
the study of the way the sentences of a language are constructed; morphology and syntax.
Generative Grammar. a device, as a body of rules, whose output is all of the sentences that are permissible in a given language, while excluding all those that are not permissible.
: the study of the classes of words, their inflections (see inflection 3), and their functions and relations in the sentence
b : a study of what is to be preferred and what avoided in inflection (see inflection 3) and syntax (see syntax 1)
2 a : the characteristic system of inflections (see inflection 3) and syntax of a language
b : a system of rules that defines the grammatical structure of a language
3 a : a grammar textbook
b : speech or writing evaluated according to its conformity to grammatical rules

appalled at the bad grammar of college students

4 : the principles or rules of an art, science, or technique

a grammar of the theater

; also : a set of such principles or rules
Grammar is the ways that words can be put together in order to make sentences.
He doesn't have mastery of the basic rules of grammar.

===================================================

Context :
noun
1.the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect:

You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc.
the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs : environment, setting
the historical context of the war
Examples of context in a Sentence

… it was Dickens who first used the word 'detective' in a literary context … —John Mullan, How Novels Work, 2006

Entrepreneurship and civil freedoms depend on a context of civil order, predictability, and individual security. —Susan L. Woodward, Balkan Tragedy, 1995

… the old building, its original acre, inside its high outer wall, was immune to change, out of context and out of time. —Harriet Doerr, The Tiger in the Grass, 1995

We need to look at the event within the larger context of world history.

The book puts these events in their proper historical and social contexts.

We need to consider these events in context.
the situation within which something exists or happens, and that can help explain it:
the text or speech that comes immediately before and after a particular phrase or piece of text and helps to explain its meaning:

the influences and events related to a particular event or situation:
the text or speech that comes immediately before and after a particular phrase or piece of text and that influence how it is used and what it means

Click to expand...

Yep, thanks. Confirms everything I've said.

jgr said:

Yep, thanks. Confirms everything I've said.

Click to expand...

You have an obvious dysfunction in reading and comprehension as your interpretation is totally taken out of context

seventysevens said:

You have an obvious dysfunction in reading and comprehension as your interpretation is totally taken out of context

Click to expand...

And that's why context and interpretation need the rules of grammar to make sure they behave.

Quasar92 said:

Beginning with Mt.24:31:
And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His ELECT from the four winds [Israel - on earth], from one end of the heavens to the other [The Church Jesus will rapture before the seven year tribulation begins]. How did those ELECT get into heaven? Read on to find out.


Jn.14:2-4 and 28:
"In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you [See Jn.20:17]. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going." [Jn.14:2-4].

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jn.14:28].

The Scriptures tell us where we all go, who belong to Christ, after the death of our bodies:
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, in and of itself, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the seven year tribulation, when He returns for those of us who are still alive, waiting for His appearing, in 1 Thess.4:17. Since He raises all those who have died, to be with Him, immediately after their physical death, for more than 2,000 years.

A look at 1 Thess.4:13-18:
The Thessalonians were very concerned about those among them who had died, that they would not be gathered together with the rest of them when Jesus returned. Paul assures them in vs 13-14 that they will all be returning with Christ from heaven, where they have been since He raised them up to be with Him, the day they died physically, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8.

"We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him [Died physically]. Vs 14.

"According to the Lord's own word [Scriptural truth as to the fact that Jesus taught there was to be a pre-trib rapture of the Church, as recorded in Jn.14:2-4 and 28], we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep." Vs 15. An assurance by Paul to the Thessalonians that the dead in Christ had already been raised from the dead before, and were already with Christ when He returns for all those left on earth alive at His coming.

Because they have already been raised, each in his/her own turn, according to 1 Cor.15:23. That is the very reason it is not documented as a resurrection in the Scriptures.

"For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven [With all His saints [Church], according to vs 14], with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first" [Paul again assures them, as seen in verses 13-14, they were already previously raised once before, each in his/her own turn, as they died, for more than 2,000 years]. Vs 16.

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the sky. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Vs 17. Where we proceed with Jesus to our Father in heaven as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

"Therefore encourage each other with these words." Vs 18.

The precise timing of the rapture of the Church in 2 Thess.2:1-8:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the Day of the Lord [The 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation of Dan.9:27] has already come." 2 Thess.2:1-2. Which is a direct reference to 1 Thess.4:17 and the theme of Paul's entire pre-trib rapture message in 2 Thess.2:1-8. When we will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. [Parenthetics mine].

The "Day of the Lord" Paul refers to in vs 2, alludes to Dan.9:27, when God will intervene into the affairs of man, culminating in the second coming of Jesus to the earth. In that passage of Scripture, the Day of the Lord is triggered by the "he" who "confirms a covenant [An agreement] for one Week" [The Day of the Lord/ 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation], who is the Antichrist. The second, and same "he," who stops Israel from the offerings and sacrificing in the temple of God, and the third, and same "he," who breaks his covenant in the middle of the Week [After 3.5 of the 7 year total], and sets up the abomination of desolation Jesus referred to in Mt.24:15, in His Olivet Discourse, about the sign of His second coming, and of the end of the age.

In verse 3: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that Day [The Day of the Lord, the 70th and final Week, the seven year tribulation] WILL NOT COME, until the "apostasia" [Greek term in which the original translation was "TO DEPART, or DEPARTURE." meaning, the RAPTURE of the Church occurs FIRST, BEFORE THE DAY OF LORD] occurs and the man of lawlessness [The Antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27] is revealed [Who triggers the Day of the Lord/ the 70th and final Week/ the seven year tribulation], the man doomed to destruction." Which reveals the "apostasia" [DEPARTURE] will take place before the Antichrist is revealed, who triggers the 70th Week/seven year tribulation. Confirmed in verses 7 and 8 below.

Translation History of apostasia and discessio: By: Thomas Ice, PhD
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either " departure" or " departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608) . This supports the notion that the word truly means " departure." In fact, Jerome' s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of 325 A.D. renders apostasia with the word, "discessio," meaning "DEPARTURE." Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of " departure" in 1611 A.D.? [It is more than likely due to overzealous RCC scribes who altered the original wording of vs 3. to accommodate their teachings of Amillenialism, which rejects both the pre-trib rapture of the Church as well as Jesus Millennial reign her on earth].

Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as " falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as " departure." No reason was ever given.

"He [The Antichrist] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." Vs 4. [The abomination of desolation, confirming Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15]. See also 2 Thess.2:4.

The rapture of the Church and verse 3 confirmed:
In verse 7: "For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he [The saints - Church] is taken out of the way."

The "he" who will be taken out of the way, is the one body of Christ, who bear the Holy Spirit within each of us [Eph.1:13-14], the Church of Jesus Christ. The very same as those who will participate in the "apostasia," the "departure," [the rapture] of the Church, in vs 3. Immediately following that:

In verse 8: "And then the lawless one [The antichrist] will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the splendor of His coming." Vs 8. [See Rev.19:17-21].

The antichrist is found in all three of the "he's" in Dan. 9:27, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15; Mk.13:14 and by Paul, in 2 Thess.2:3, 4 and 8.

From the above Scriptural facts, there can be only one proper interpretation for the timing of the rapture of the Church, which will be immediately preceding the 70th and final/7 year tribulation, triggered by the antichrist, all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27. Seen also as the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, riding the white horse, in the first of the seven seals, in Rev.6:2. There is no "pre-wrath" or post-trib rapture taught in the Scriptures.


Other verses pertaining to the rapture of the Church: 1 Thess.1:10; 1 Thess.5:9; Rev.3:10 and Rev.4:1-2. Of the saints [Church] returning with Christ from their marriage in heaven, in Rev.19:7, 8 and 14; Jude 14 and Zech.14:4-5/

The difference between the rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ:

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/2009/12/19 ... f-t/#post0

All parenthetics mine.

God Bless!

Quasar92

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My thoughts:

(1)Why would scoffers asking "where's the promise of His coming" be a bad thing if Christ haven't returned yet:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.



(2)Why would Paul in 1 Thess. 4:13 be explaining his return if He haven't returned yet:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Is it a lie?

Why would God allow room for scoffers to laugh at those who hope for His return?



(3)Why would They preach the "kingdom of heaven" being "at hand" 2,000 years ago:

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
===================================
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
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Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.



(4)And why tell his disciples to keep watch:

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
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Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.



(5)And what did He mean when He said the kingdom of heaven "suffereth" violence up until John:

Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.



Do you think this has anything to do with the events in the book of Revelation and why all these promises seems to be totally deferred?

jgr said:

The falling away began in the fourth century.

The early church believed that the imperial Roman empire, under which the church was then living, was the restrainer which would eventually be "taken out of the way", but which was forestalling the emergence of the "holy" Roman empire, which Paul describes as the lawless one which would ultimately descend into apostasy. Notice in the related verses in 2 Thess. 2 that Paul does not reveal the identity of the restrainer. If Paul had believed that the Holy Spirit or the Church was the restrainer, there would have been no reason for him not to explicitly name either one. But Paul did have a reason. John Chrysostom, an apologist of the later early post-apostolic era, reveals it:

"Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him...But because he said this of the Roman empire, he naturally glanced at it, and speaks covertly and darkly. For he did not wish to bring upon himself superfluous enmities, and useless dangers. For if he had said that after a little while the Roman empire would be dissolved, they would immediately have even overwhelmed him, as a pestilent person, and all the faithful, as living and warring to this end."

Paul did not wish to jeopardize the Church by attracting the attention of the Roman authorities.

History subsequently confirmed the validity of Paul's inspired prescience.

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Has the world said "peace and safety" for 1600 years since the four century? The falling away in 2thessalonians - is one of three pre-requirements for the Day of the Lord - so it cannot be isolated from the peace and safety that turns to sudden destruction - when the the Day of the Lord begins in 1thessalonians5.

The conditions right before the Day of the Lord have to happen together.

1. The world saying peace and safety.
2. The falling away
3. The person going into the the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Douggg said:

Has the world said "peace and safety" for 1600 years since the four century? The falling away in 2thessalonians - is one of three pre-requirements for the Day of the Lord - so it cannot be isolated from the peace and safety that turns to sudden destruction - when the the Day of the Lord begins in 1thessalonians5.

The conditions right before the Day of the Lord have to happen together.

1. The world saying peace and safety.
2. The falling away
3. The person going into the the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Click to expand...

There's nothing about peace and safety in my post. Please provide your citation.

jgr said:

There's nothing about peace and safety in my post. Please provide your citation.

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I know you did not address it. What I am saying to you is think it through again. You should be looking at it as one scenario where all three things takes place together and lead right into the Day of the Lord. The peace and safety, the falling away, the going into the temple claiming to be God.

1Thessalonians4 the resurrection/rapture.

Then Paul starts talking about the time when it will take place in 1Thessalonians5, as right before the Day of Lord and Christians not being appointed unto wrath that suddenly takes place when the peace and safety fails. The resurrection/rapture is verse 9-11.

Then, in a follow up, in 2Thessalonians2:2, Paul give some more information, because the Thessalonians heard rumors that the Day of the Lord has started already - something they were told about earlier in 1Thessalonians5 as a factor concerning the resurrection/rapture.

The additional information is (1) the falling away and (2) the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

So all three things have to take place together, connected; the peace and safety illusion, the great falling away, and the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

It can't be one broad timeframe over history. It has to be pinpointed to one generation. And the scenario has to be a generation when the temple is rebuilt. Right now as of this very moment, there is no temple for the person to enter into. So the scenario has to include that the temple be rebuilt - if it applies in our generation. Which separately by the parable of the fig tree - it has to.

Douggg said:

I know you did not address it. What I am saying to you is think it through again. You should be looking at it as one scenario where all three things takes place together and lead right into the Day of the Lord. The peace and safety, the falling away, the going into the temple claiming to be God.

1Thessalonians4 the resurrection/rapture.

Then Paul starts talking about the time when it will take place in 1Thessalonians5, as right before the Day of Lord and Christians not being appointed unto wrath that suddenly takes place when the peace and safety fails. The resurrection/rapture is verse 9-11.

Then, in a follow up, in 2Thessalonians2:2, Paul give some more information, because the Thessalonians heard rumors that the Day of the Lord has started already - something they were told about earlier in 1Thessalonians5 as a factor concerning the resurrection/rapture.

The additional information is (1) the falling away and (2) the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

So all three things have to take place together, connected; the peace and safety illusion, the great falling away, and the person going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

It can't be one broad timeframe over history. It has to be pinpointed to one generation. And the scenario has to be a generation when the temple is rebuilt. Right now as of this very moment, there is no temple for the person to enter into. So the scenario has to include that the temple be rebuilt - if it applies in our generation. Which separately by the parable of the fig tree - it has to.

Click to expand...

History confirmed Paul's inspired predictions.

It can't be rewritten.

jgr said:

History confirmed Paul's inspired predictions.

It can't be rewritten.

Click to expand...

History has not in any way fulfilled those three pre-requirements to the Day of the Lord, Paul was referring to in the text.

Jesus is not talking about history here. They will be saying Peace and Safety. Fallen away from Christianity. Thinking they are living in the messianic age.

Matthew 24:
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Douggg said:

History has not in any way fulfilled those three pre-requirements to the Day of the Lord, Paul was referring to in the text.

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1. The falling away was fulfilled in the apostasy of Roman papalism which began in the 4th century.
2. The succession of popes occupied the temple of God (a "naos" spiritual temple, in the Greek), i.e. the Church.
3. The Day of the Lord has not yet occurred, but Paul did not specify a time when it would. Rather, he declared that the two predictions above would occur first, and they have. The Day of the Lord remains to be fulfilled.