The Scientific Juggernaut that is BIO-Complexity

[Speedwell]

Ok....

Don't blame me--it's what I see creationists doing to the Bible.

 

[Estrid]

Don't blame me--it's what I see creationists doing to the Bible.

Sorryah, I was taking you literally.

 

[Subduction Zone]

First we had to overcome these odds:

1 in 10 to the 89,900th* power.

SOURCE

Too bad that all of that is based upon a strawman.

 

[AV1611VET]

Too bad that all of that is based upon a strawman.

There wouldn't be any strawmen without those odds being beaten somehow.

 

[Subduction Zone]

There wouldn't be any strawmen without those odds being beaten somehow.

The odds were beaten. You are here. There does not appear to be any need of a god of any sort.

 

[AV1611VET]

The odds were beaten.

Sans "a god of any sort" ... how?

What beat them? chance? luck? nature?

There aren't that many atoms or seconds in the universe to work with.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sans "a god of any sort" ... how?

What beat them? chance? luck? nature?

There aren't that many atoms or seconds in the universe to work with.

Yep, nature. The odds are not as high as you think.

 

[Bradskii]

Sans "a god of any sort" ... how?

What beat them? chance? luck? nature?

There aren't that many atoms or seconds in the universe to work with.

The thing is, if something is more viable than it's previous iteration, it tends to stick around. We don't wipe the slate clean and start again. What is a slight improvement is kept and used again. So if you want to deal a full pack of cards in suit and number order in a single deal then the odds are factorial 52 (52x51x50x49 etc). A HUUGE number. It would take you longer than the universe has existed to do it. That's where the big numbers come from in creationst web sites.

But...lay a few simple ground rules (this atom combined with that atom is an improvement, this molecule adjacent to that molecule is an improvement, this card next to that card is an improvement).Then dealing that full pack in order happens in an hour or so as opposed to gazzilions of years.

But they don't tell you that. Most of the creationists know it but they don't tell you. Most creationist sites lie to you on the assumption that you are too gullible, too entrenched in your views, or not smart enough to contradict them.

Another problem with creationists is that they assume that what we have was intended. When it's actually random. It's like 'someone will win the lottery today' versus 'this person will win the lottery today'. The first statement is a given. It's bound to happen. The second is randon - a one in a few million chances. So if you assume that man was the intended result of evolution then it's beyond chance that that happened. But someone always wins the lottery - and it was us. No big deal - unless you are the winner. And then gee, you certainly feel special!

But you're just one of a bazzilion other outcomes.

 

[AV1611VET]

...

But to make your point, Brad, you had to invoke a dealer and ground rules.

Therefore God.

 

[Mr Laurier]

But to make your point, Brad, you had to invoke a dealer and ground rules.

Therefore God.

Or Elf, or Fairy, or Hobgoblin.
Or maybe a god.
Or maybe chemistry, and physics.

 

[AV1611VET]

Or maybe chemistry, and physics.

Chemistry and physics didn't deal out those cards (in a manner of speaking).

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But to make your point, Brad, you had to invoke a dealer and ground rules.

Therefore God.

Ironically myopic... You must have missed that the card analogy was about nature (the dealer is the random interactions, the ground rules are the laws of physics, chemistry, and natural selection). Hope that helps.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ironically myopic... You must have missed that the card analogy was about nature (the dealer is the random interactions, the ground rules are the laws of physics, chemistry, and natural selection). Hope that helps.

I think it was Steve Martin that once told a joke about how we can become an instant millionaire:

Step One: Get a million dollars.
Step Two: Deposit it in the bank.

How to become an evolutionist:

Step One: Get a primeval atom.
Step Two: Get a law that makes it expand.
Step Three: Add laws as necessary to make all this ylem come together in the right sequence.
Step Four: Add time as necessary.
Step Five: Discard anything that might hinder configuring the universe to how we see it today.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think it was Steve Martin that once told a joke about how we can become an instant millionaire:

Step One: Get a million dollars.
Step Two: Deposit it in the bank.

How to become an evolutionist:

Step One: Get a primeval atom.
Step Two: Get a law that makes it expand.
Step Three: Add laws as necessary to make all this ylem come together in the right sequence.
Step Four: Add time as necessary.
Step Five: Discard anything that might hinder configuring the universe to how we see it today.

Your gambits become ever more nonsensical.

 

[AV1611VET]

Your gambits become ever more nonsensical.

Tell me, Frumious:

The Bible says Jesus walked on water.

In your opinion, is that nonsensical?

(This is a YES or NO question please.)

 

[Estrid]

Your gambits become ever more nonsensical.

Ever since the one about floodwater wafted to Neptune,
to shine as a warning beacon against incoming rogue angels.
there been little chance of a topper.

 

[AV1611VET]

Ever since the one about floodwater wafted to Neptune,
to shine as a warning beacon against incoming rogue angels.
there been little chance of a topper.

Glad you like it!

Have you heard that Jesus walked on water?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Tell me, Frumious:

The Bible says Jesus walked on water.

In your opinion, is that nonsensical?

(This is a YES or NO question please.)

The sentence is not nonsensical - the bible does say that. The claim that Jesus walked on water is just an episode of a story - it makes sense as part of the larger narrative. In those ways it isn't nonsensical.

The claim that a special person really walked on water with no tricks or artificial aids isn't nonsensical, it's almost certainly wrong.

 

[Bradskii]

But to make your point, Brad, you had to invoke a dealer and ground rules.

Therefore God.

If you think that He was the one deciding the rules...then fine. I've no problem with that. I'm glad that we can agree that there are rules and that they allow for things to evolve as opposed to scrapping the first deal and starting again from fresh.

At least now you know that the bazillion times ten to the gazillion odds don't reflect reality.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Have you heard that Jesus walked on water?

I've heard that claim. I don't buy it, but I've heard it.

Frankly it's the kind of story from the gospels that ultimately "broke the spell" as it were for me and deposited the Jesus miracles in the same bin with the other supernatural events I didn't accept as real or plausible.

[I know you didn't ask me, but if I stay in this thread long enough, my turn would certainly come.]