The Science that led me away from Atheism.

[mark kennedy]

"What is the problem with 7 amino acid replacements in a highly conserved brain related gene?"

The very thing you had provided to show that it is a big problem indicates:

"This is in stark contrast to the duplicate copies, which diverged from ancestral SRGAP2A less than 4 mya, but have accumulated as many as seven amino-acid replacements compared to one synonymous change."

You see, duplicates are NOT constrained.

These little problems for you are one of the reasons, I suspect, many find it easy to dismiss what you and your fans seem to think are major arguments against evolution, and it is one of the problems that I see in creationist/ID types that 'educate themselves' on these issues.

You miss the (accumulated requisite knowledge of the fields in question)forest for the (juicy 'this is a big problem for evilutionists!' quote)trees.

What is the problem with 7 amino acid replacements in a highly conserved brain related gene? The only observed effects of changes in this gene in humans is disease and disorder:

• 15,767 individuals reported by Cooper et al. (2011)] for potential copy-number variation. We identified six large (>1 Mbp) copy-number variants (CNVs), including three deletions of the ancestral 1q32.1 region…
• A ten year old child with a history of seizures, attention deficit disorder, and learning disabilities. An MRI of this patient also indicates several brain malformations, including hypoplasia of the posterior body of the corpus callosum…
• Translocation breaking within intron 6 of SRGAP2A was reported in a five-year-old girl diagnosed with West syndrome and exhibiting epileptic seizures, intellectual disability, cortical atrophy, and a thin corpus callosum. (Human-specific evolution of novel SRGAP2 genes by incomplete segmental duplication Cell May 2012)

The search for variation with regard to this vital gene yielded no beneficial effect upon which selection could have acted. The only conceivable way the changes happen is relaxed functional constraint which, unless it emerged from the initial mutation perfectly functional it surly would have killed the host. Mutations are found in children with 'developmental delay and brain malformations, including West Syndrome, agenesis of the corpus callosum, and epileptic encephalopathies'.

 

[pitabread]

The only 'contender' out there Who has revealed He is the uncaused cause is “Ehyeh Who Ehyeh." It's all in the Name Yahweh the self-Existent or Eternal One.

I always am amazed at the sheer convenience of the "One True God"(TM) that just happens to be part of a mainstream world religion that is predominant in modern Western culture.

I mean, just think if you were born in ancient Greece or something. You would have completely missed out.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

None of which have claims of an uncreated Creator.

Seriously?? From: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-age-of-Lord-Vishnu

Age of Universe according to Vedas

"Outside of the three planetary systems, the four Yugas multiplied by one thousand comprise one day on the planet of Brahma. A similar period comprises a night of Brahma, in which the creator of the universe goes to sleep."

Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Chapter 11, Text 22)

There are 4 Yugas on earth which keeps circulating:

Satya Yuga - 1.728 million years

Treta Yuga - 1.296 million years

Dwapara Yuga - 0.864 million years

Kali Yuga - 0.432 million years

Total: 4.32 million human years.

This 4 yuga cycle (ChaturYuga) is called divya (divine) yuga.

One thousand such cycles forms one day of Brahma (a demigod in hindu religion which governs the universe).

So one day of Brahma is 4.32 million * 1000 = 4.32 billion human years.

Each such day of Brahma is called a "kalpa". His night also constitutes 4.32 billion human years.

During his day, life exists in universe.

In nighttime, no form of life exists.

So one complete day and night has 8.64 billion human years.

Age of Brahma is 100 years.

Each year of Brahma has 360 days and same number of nights.

Thus, total age of Brahma is 360 * 100 * 8.64 billion = 311,040 billion human years. i.e. 311.04 trillion years. This period is called "maha kalpa".

The life span of the universe is one "maha kalpa". i.e. 311.04 trillion human years.

This time span is also the duration of one breath of "Vishnu" (One of the ultimate god in Hindu religion).

When he exhales, thousands of universes emerges and one "Brahma" is born in each universe.

When "Vishnu" inhales, all universes get sucked and Brahma dies.

This cycle is non-ending and eternal. That’s why "Vishnu" is considered eternal in Vedic Science (or religion).​

you don't get out much, do you?

 

[redleghunter]

I always am amazed at the sheer convenience of the "One True God"(TM) that just happens to be part of a mainstream world religion that is predominant in modern Western culture.

I mean, just think if you were born in ancient Greece or something. You would have completely missed out.

It was actually predominate in the Middle East. The sons of Israel to be specific.

 

[redleghunter]

Seriously?? From: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-age-of-Lord-Vishnu

Age of Universe according to Vedas

"Outside of the three planetary systems, the four Yugas multiplied by one thousand comprise one day on the planet of Brahma. A similar period comprises a night of Brahma, in which the creator of the universe goes to sleep."

Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 3, Chapter 11, Text 22)

There are 4 Yugas on earth which keeps circulating:

Satya Yuga - 1.728 million years

Treta Yuga - 1.296 million years

Dwapara Yuga - 0.864 million years

Kali Yuga - 0.432 million years

Total: 4.32 million human years.

This 4 yuga cycle (ChaturYuga) is called divya (divine) yuga.

One thousand such cycles forms one day of Brahma (a demigod in hindu religion which governs the universe).

So one day of Brahma is 4.32 million * 1000 = 4.32 billion human years.

Each such day of Brahma is called a "kalpa". His night also constitutes 4.32 billion human years.

During his day, life exists in universe.

In nighttime, no form of life exists.

So one complete day and night has 8.64 billion human years.

Age of Brahma is 100 years.

Each year of Brahma has 360 days and same number of nights.

Thus, total age of Brahma is 360 * 100 * 8.64 billion = 311,040 billion human years. i.e. 311.04 trillion years. This period is called "maha kalpa".

The life span of the universe is one "maha kalpa". i.e. 311.04 trillion human years.

This time span is also the duration of one breath of "Vishnu" (One of the ultimate god in Hindu religion).

When he exhales, thousands of universes emerges and one "Brahma" is born in each universe.

When "Vishnu" inhales, all universes get sucked and Brahma dies.

This cycle is non-ending and eternal. That’s why "Vishnu" is considered eternal in Vedic Science (or religion).​

you don't get out much, do you?

Still of naturalistic origins. Much like the pagan beliefs today.

 

[redleghunter]

DNA isn't information in the sense you are thinking of, especially considering the fact that very different sequences can result in the exact same protein product. In fact, people only refer to DNA as containing information because it's super difficult to describe it to laymen otherwise. Kinda like how neuron signalling is compared to toilets. Neurons don't actually function like toilets, but toilets are way more familiar than neurons are so it helps with explanations that don't go into much depth.

That's something new.

The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases: adenine (A), guanine (G), cytosine (C), and thymine (T). Human DNA consists of about 3 billion bases, and more than 99 percent of those bases are the same in all people. The order, or sequence, of these bases determines the information available for building and maintaining an organism, similar to the way in which letters of the alphabet appear in a certain order to form words and sentences.​

DNA bases pair up with each other, A with T and C with G, to form units called base pairs. Each base is also attached to a sugar molecule and a phosphate molecule. Together, a base, sugar, and phosphate are called a nucleotide. Nucleotides are arranged in two long strands that form a spiral called a double helix. The structure of the double helix is somewhat like a ladder, with the base pairs forming the ladder’s rungs and the sugar and phosphate molecules forming the vertical sidepieces of the ladder.

An important property of DNA is that it can replicate, or make copies of itself. Each strand of DNA in the double helix can serve as a pattern for duplicating the sequence of bases. This is critical when cells divide because each new cell needs to have an exact copy of the DNA present in the old cell.

What is DNA?​

 

[redleghunter]

Then you'd have to believe that the deity you believe in intentionally instigates a ton of changes to DNA of which the majority do absolutely nothing. Something I am pretty sure any intelligent being would view as a completely pointless thing to do.

Do nothing which can be observed?

 

[Gene2memE]

As you describe the above there are changes in information. From what we can observe such complex changes which include information changing usually requires an intelligence behind it.

Usually requires an intelligence. So not always.

So, its entirely plausible that new information can come about from non-intelligent means.

As demonstrated by these studies (for a start):
De Novo Origination of a New Protein-Coding Gene in Saccharomyces cerevisiae
https://genome.cshlp.org/content/19/10/1752.short
Evolution of Viral Proteins Originated De Novo by Overprinting | Molecular Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

 

[FormerAtheist]

This data compilation does not seem to help your case:

Fun with Hominin Cranial Capacity Datasets (and Excel)

While it is true you can find fossils that you can make a case for this or that but there are still some problems:

1. Math is impossible. You still have that serious problem and you know it. The math going with population genetics and mutation rates will not allow for ape to human.

2. While you can make a case for fossils so can the ID side which means its up for grabs.

3. your side has a legacy of failures, frauds, mistakes.

So you have some data but it needs to be fantastic to overcome those first 3 and you don't even have half of what you need.

 

[FormerAtheist]

The post I responded to originally said the human brain developed over 7 million years, that's not true. The cranial capacity doubled over night and all those changes became permanently fixed in our Hominid line, about 2mya.

The "Cranial capacity doubled over night" that sounds mathematically unreasonable I have never heard of that. Honestly I could use that right now just to make sense of that.

 

[mark kennedy]

The "Cranial capacity doubled over night" that sounds mathematically unreasonable I have never heard of that. Honestly I could use that right now just to make sense of that.

Look at the date and the cranial capacity and tell me, are they 400cc and some change right up until 2 mya. After that, what do you think the cranial capacity of Homo erectus was, because it's 750 and 1225 cc, what happened? We are talking brain related genes, they do not change overnight like that, permanently fixed, as a part of a major evolutionary, adaptive giant leap. It's called, 'Natura non facit saltum', nature does not make leaps and it is classic Darwinism.

To date, I have never gotten a straight answer for that and some of these guys are well read. Something to think about.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[FormerAtheist]

Ok.

There are now several known mechanisms to produce de novo genes.
There aren't actually 60 de novo genes unique the human brain, there seem to be about 15 to 25 - depending on how you slice it.
These de novo genes evolved at a slow and steady rate, not "overnight"
Your hypothesis of "dramatic, giant leaps" in human brain development is not played out by the evidence.

I find this highly speculative to say the least in that there is so little we still know about the total nature of "Genes" and that the math that would be involved in even modifying a single gene. Could it be that that given what little we know about Epigenetic info and with the previous info that someone might be a little premature? Maybe a little enthuasiastic?

Not saying its not true but saying at this point a bit of caution might be in order.

Even if you have a method for new genes what are these new genes doing? Are they making yeast into something other then Yaks? I know that sounds lame so lets say this better. Is it proving that you can make something other than what it started out with?

What if you did have a different gene?

What if that gene did little?

What if the gene would never get you to where you think you need to go? Because you have a new gene only means something if that gene can get you where you need to go.

I am not asking for the complete journey. I am asking for something realistic math wise and functional wise. If you give me a gene in the wrong direction or a gene that has no meaning then what am I to make of it?

nothing

 

[FormerAtheist]

Look at the date and the cranial capacity and tell me, are they 400cc and some change right up until 2 mya. After that, what do you think the cranial capacity of Homo erectus was, because it's 750 and 1225 cc, what happened? We are talking brain related genes, they do not change overnight like that, permanently fixed, as a part of a major evolutionary, adaptive giant leap.

To date, I have never gotten a straight answer for that and some of these guys are well read. Something to think about.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I apologize I think I misread what you posted.

 

[FormerAtheist]

Clearly not, considering that my breathing and eating share the same tube part of the way, making choking possible. Evolution just promotes what works best out of what traits already exist and any new traits that come about through mutation. Since mutation very obviously doesn't favor beneficial traits, this makes the situation of survival equate to "get by with what you get or die trying". It's a cruel system that results in immensely high rates of death, extinction, and general suffering.

So one mouth is not enough for you?

Perhaps a half dozen?

 

[mark kennedy]

I apologize I think I misread what you posted.

Perhaps, keep searching...

 

[FormerAtheist]

Usually requires an intelligence. So not always.

So, its entirely plausible that new information can come about from non-intelligent means.

As demonstrated by these studies (for a start):
De Novo Origination of a New Protein-Coding Gene in Saccharomyces cerevisiae
Recent de novo origin of human protein-coding genes
Evolution of Viral Proteins Originated De Novo by Overprinting | Molecular Biology and Evolution | Oxford Academic

I have already replied to this but thought I would come back and say a bit more. Here is the thing. Do you know how many times there have been failed theories involving some new finding>? They sound so promising for the atheist. They are like life blood. And then we find out something more about them. I know because I used to be an atheist and I was caught up in these failed theories. Not saying this particular one is a failed theory just saying that at this point I look at this with a bit more caution.

The next problem for me other then the experience of being burned is the math. The math just doesn't worth very well to put it mildly with this idea so that's a problem.

Then I read the first abstract and read those words that make me cringe at this point ... the "hopeful words" ... like "we think" ... "believe" ... "possible" .... "seems" ....

Honestly I don't remember the words in the first abstract just go read it again for yourself you will see them ... now that I have pointed it out.

YOU WILL SEE IT.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

You said that you mocked beliefs, fullstop. Which would indicate that you did not view your various positions as qualifying as beliefs also.

No, not in the slightest! In fact, I expect to be challenged, just the same as I would challenge others. This will lead to a conversation that will (with any luck) give us a better and more holistic outlook on our beliefs and how we come to them - in fact, I've even shifted on my own beliefs on being challenged as I hope to change the beliefs of others for the better...

Do you have scientific evidence to support the belief that all people deserve equal treatment? If so, I would very much like to see it, since a lot of the moral framework for our society does indeed seem to be based on those ancient writings and centuries worth of intersubjective engagement with them. Trying to disentangle that is a project I am very interested in, so if you have any genuine insights to offer, I would be interested.

I'd probably start by pointing you to List of all our research reports | Equality and Human Rights Commission - not entirely sure what it is you're after, but this site provides a wide array of research covering many aspects from impact of welfare on minority groups to impact of education on equality and diversity in societies - have a search through it and see what you can find - there's plenty of research in this field but if you want to talk about anything specific (say, something like slavery in the bible, or how women are portrayed as less than men, not allowed to positions that oversee men like teaching, or womens testimony being half as worthy in courts of law, or other such biblical values) then let me know.

On the other hand, the insistence that we now understand our universe to such a degree that anything that earlier civilizations might have had to say about it is antiquated and not worth looking at is modern hubris. As a culture, we need to get over ourselves and learn to look at things from other perspectives once more. The Greeks and Romans and classical Indians were not idiots.

perhaps not - but we no longer cut thieves' hands off for stealing bare necessities in food to feed their starving infants, we don't stone witches to death or kill homosexuals for being born that way, we don't keep slaves, let alone beat them (but not so much that they die within a day or two), or kill raped women because they didn't scream loud enough, or because they brought shame on the family for being raped, so on. We've learnt much since then despite pockets of this fundamental thinking persisting to varying degrees in varying ways today.

Those societies worked with what they had and like you say, built them on their respective religions - ancient egypt on Amon-Ra , the sungod, etc., ancient Greece on Zeus, Romans on Odin, then Zoroastrian, then Judaism, right up to our western civilization where we've finally found the scientific method and each iteration improved with a combination of what came before and what we've learnt in the mean time. The systems of society today are measurably better in every respect in societal health than any of the previous deity based law systems before it. We've done the research.

This is an ongoing process of course, it certainly isn't perfect - there's plenty of room to improve things, and this is why the research continues and improvements keep incrementing.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Still of naturalistic origins. Much like the pagan beliefs today.

wait, what?? You mean Vishnu being eternal and never ending is natural? ...so your God's eternal is manufactured, or man-made? Actually, I could be on board with that, your God can be man-made....

I'm sorry, you'll have to spell out the difference, then probably explain why your God's version of eternity and creation myth is more realistic or probable than the Hindu creation myths which are both more realistic and are much closer to the observed facts of this universe than the hilariously out of range the fundamentalist YEC imagined 6,000 - 10,000 year old universe is...

 

[FormerAtheist]

No, not in the slightest! In fact, I expect to be challenged, just the same as I would challenge others. This will lead to a conversation that will (with any luck) give us a better and more holistic outlook on our beliefs and how we come to them - in fact, I've even shifted on my own beliefs on being challenged as I hope to change the beliefs of others for the better...

I'd probably start by pointing you to List of all our research reports | Equality and Human Rights Commission - not entirely sure what it is you're after, but this site provides a wide array of research covering many aspects from impact of welfare on minority groups to impact of education on equality and diversity in societies - have a search through it and see what you can find - there's plenty of research in this field but if you want to talk about anything specific (say, something like slavery in the bible, or how women are portrayed as less than men, not allowed to positions that oversee men like teaching, or womens testimony being half as worthy in courts of law, or other such biblical values) then let me know.

perhaps not - but we no longer cut thieves' hands off for stealing bare necessities in food to feed their starving infants, we don't stone witches to death or kill homosexuals for being born that way, we don't keep slaves, let alone beat them (but not so much that they die within a day or two), or kill raped women because they didn't scream loud enough, or because they brought shame on the family for being raped, so on. We've learnt much since then despite pockets of this fundamental thinking persisting to varying degrees in varying ways today.

Those societies worked with what they had and like you say, built them on their respective religions - ancient egypt on Amon-Ra , the sungod, etc., ancient Greece on Zeus, Romans on Odin, then Zoroastrian, then Judaism, right up to our western civilization where we've finally found the scientific method and each iteration improved with a combination of what came before and what we've learnt in the mean time. The systems of society today are measurably better in every respect in societal health than any of the previous deity based law systems before it. We've done the research.

This is an ongoing process of course, it certainly isn't perfect - there's plenty of room to improve things, and this is why the research continues and improvements keep incrementing.

What would be nice is if "improvements keep incrementing" instead we see everyone turning into straight up basket cases. Everyone needed lots and lots of pills and Couche time and every now and again some time with some metal to the head. What is that??

Why is that?

Why are kids so messed up today?

Why are people so depressed?

Why are people that are not these delusional happy delirious Christians so less happy?

Have we missed something some thing that these crazy Christians have?

 

[FormerAtheist]

wait, what?? You mean Vishnu being eternal and never ending is natural? ...so your God's eternal is manufactured, or man-made? Actually, I could be on board with that, your God can be man-made....

I'm sorry, you'll have to spell out the difference, then probably explain why your God's version of eternity and creation myth is more realistic or probable than the Hindu creation myths which are both more realistic and are much closer to the observed facts of this universe than the hilariously out of range the fundamentalist YEC imagined 6,000 - 10,000 year old universe is...

Oh you criticize ... so easy to do but what have you or any other atheist have come up with that can compare to what the these evil simple minded Christians have done in their existence?

Did you Atheists come up with a governing system that would give humans the most freedom ... well humans have ever known in their entire existence?

Nope.

Did Atheists come up with the modern hospital system?

Nope.

YMCA?
Red Cross?
AA?
Children's Rights?
Free the slaves
Hide the Jews

hahaha

What did you guys do?

Create Communism and a fast track to suicide?

That's what you got????????

Come on man bring it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can keep going on defending these people what can you do?????