The Science that led me away from Atheism.

[tas8831]

Good point and I'm glad you see that at some point there was a beginning to the universe.

redleghunter - Artillery?

 

[tas8831]

Science is not the obedient slave to atheism.

Where did this come from? A bit defensive, are we?

It was and always has been a no brainer to me. Any Intelligent first causer would falsify atheism which explains nothing.

So you are merely assuming that an 'intelligent first causer' would be your preferred ancient deity?

Atheism is not meant to explain anything - so nice strawman with that.

The implication that 'a first causer' explains anything is intriguing. But empty if there is no reason to conclude that one even exists/existed.

Off to work where ignorance is not tolerated.

Tough day at the mill?

Not something to hangs ones hat on if required to do productive things on someone else's dime. Have a nice day.

Not sure what this desperate dig is supposed to mean.

But I find it kind of funny, in a 'wow, such a lack of self-awareness' way.

 

[tas8831]

Oh sure it does, notice the cranial capacity is between 400cc and 500cc until about 2mya. The average cranial capacity for humans is over 1300 cc, and the Homo Erectus fossils average right around 1000cc, so the cranial capacity doubled about 2 mya without precursors and certainly not over 7 million years.

2 million years... Let's see that is about 125,000 generations...

So explain why even if your oft-repeated assertion has merit, it is a problem again?

You are not one of these 'gradualism means all things must occur via tiny increments' are you?

Because if you are, I would suggest you learn a bit about how genotype affects phenotype. Hint - it is not the way you seem to want to believe.

 

[tas8831]

The post I responded to originally said the human brain developed over 7 million years, that's not true.

How is that not true?

Do you think that the human brain is a totally new entity, 100% different than the brains of our ancestors?

If so, what is your evidence that this is so?

The cranial capacity doubled over night and all those changes became permanently fixed in our Hominid line, about 2mya.

125000 generations is not over night.

 

[tas8831]

When providing evidence for this, please do point to the bit where it all happened 2 million years ago, overnight, and was causative for the doubling of cranial capacity.

When providing evidence for these, please do include the part where they happened overnight, and were causative for the doubling of cranial capacity.

If only I could predict the outcome of this exchange...

 

[tas8831]

Would actual peer reviewed scientific evidence suffice or do you require a chase around the mulberry bush?

They have discovered at least two dramatic giant leaps that would have had to occur in order of the human brain to have emerged from ape like ancestors SRGAP2, HAR1F.

It appears that those leaps did occur. Funny how we don't see the 'failed' intermediates. Oh, wait...

In addition genes involved with the development of language (FOXP2), changes in the musculature of the jaw (MYH16) , and limb and digit specializations (HACNS1).

The ancestral SRGAP2 protein sequence is highly constrained based on our analysis of 10 mammalian lineages. We find only a single amino-acid change between human and mouse and no changes among nonhuman primates within the first nine exons of the SRGAP2 orthologs. This is in stark contrast to the duplicate copies, which diverged from ancestral SRGAP2A less than 4 mya, but have accumulated as many as seven amino-acid replacements compared to one synonymous change. (Human-specific evolution of novel SRGAP2 genes by incomplete segmental duplication Cell May 2012)​

What is the problem with 7 amino acid replacements in a highly conserved brain related gene?

I think your biggest problem - you only "see" what you need to.

Take your above question/implied assertion:

"What is the problem with 7 amino acid replacements in a highly conserved brain related gene?"

The very thing you had provided to show that it is a big problem indicates:

"This is in stark contrast to the duplicate copies, which diverged from ancestral SRGAP2A less than 4 mya, but have accumulated as many as seven amino-acid replacements compared to one synonymous change."

You see, duplicates are NOT constrained.

These little problems for you are one of the reasons, I suspect, many find it easy to dismiss what you and your fans seem to think are major arguments against evolution, and it is one of the problems that I see in creationist/ID types that 'educate themselves' on these issues.

You miss the (accumulated requisite knowledge of the fields in question)forest for the (juicy 'this is a big problem for evilutionists!' quote)trees.

The only observed effects of changes in this gene in humans is disease and disorder:

• 15,767 individuals reported by Cooper et al. (2011)] for potential copy-number variation. We identified six large (>1 Mbp) copy-number variants (CNVs), including three deletions of the ancestral 1q32.1 region…
• A ten year old child with a history of seizures, attention deficit disorder, and learning disabilities. An MRI of this patient also indicates several brain malformations, including hypoplasia of the posterior body of the corpus callosum…
• Translocation breaking within intron 6 of SRGAP2A was reported in a five-year-old girl diagnosed with West syndrome and exhibiting epileptic seizures, intellectual disability, cortical atrophy, and a thin corpus callosum. (Human-specific evolution of novel SRGAP2 genes by incomplete segmental duplication Cell May 2012)

The search for variation with regard to this vital gene yielded no beneficial effect upon which selection could have acted. The only conceivable way the changes happen is relaxed functional constraint which, unless it emerged from the initial mutation perfectly functional it surly would have killed the host. Mutations are found in children with 'developmental delay and brain malformations, including West Syndrome, agenesis of the corpus callosum, and epileptic encephalopathies'.(cited above)

I suspect, given the contradictory nature of these quotes, that your method of keyword-searching-for-quotes is failing you.

Take your first bullet point - the next sentence:

"Since the CNVs are large and encompass multiple candidate genes, this observation does not prove pathogenicity of dosage imbalance of SRGAP2A"

Of course Creationists have their opinions about this gene:

SRGAP2A, SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D, which are located in three completely separate regions on chromosome number 1.1 They appear to play an important role in brain development.2 Perhaps the most striking discovery is that three of the four genes (SRGAP2B, SRGAP2C, and SRGAP2D) are completely unique to humans and found in no other mammal species, not even apes…Unique in their protein coding arrangement and structure. The genes do not look duplicated at all… (Newly Discovered Human Brain Genes Are Bad News for Evolution by Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D)
​

Ah, Tomkins.

Given his track record, and his multiple public humiliations on sites like Reddit, I am surprised that the ICR hasn't put him on hiatus for a while.


Almost as if one could read this whole exchange here, or maybe here....

 

[tas8831]

Already did and it's an obvious fact that the cranial capacity was between 400cc and 500cc until about 2mya. If you don't know that much sorry about your luck, would you like to try paleontology?

I already did provide the genetic evidence, would you like to read it again?

No, you really didn't. None of those mentioned 'doubling overnight'.

 

[tas8831]

The rise of Hominid cranial capacity is.

2 million years, 125000 generations is not overnight.

If a single mutation produced changes that allowed for a 30% increase in brain size, would that be "overnight"?

 

[redleghunter]

...there are so many! Well, here's a few links to get you started but seriously, haven't you read _anything_ else besides your particular bible??

meaning of life (Hinduism)
Zoroastrian beliefs
What’s the Purpose of Life?
Jain Beliefs
Neopagan Beliefs

None of which have claims of an uncreated Creator.

 

[redleghunter]

I wonder why you say this as if you think to have scored some kind of point.

You may have missed some of the conversation. Didn't mean to create a 'talking past each other' scenario. My question in general to atheists was if they believed the universe had a beginning. No points scored or anything like that. Was just curious and many have answered. So thank you for answering.

 

[redleghunter]

And that "programmer", is evolution.

Does this not make a process an intelligence?

 

[redleghunter]

redleghunter - Artillery?

Yes Sir a Redleg through and through. Military retirement 4 years ago. Now teaching the stuff to young and not so young officers and NCOs.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Does this not make a process an intelligence?

No. Note the quotes.

 

[Silmarien]

Well I certainly didn't say they weren't beliefs... did I? What you'll likely find though is scientific evidence to support our beliefs. This doesn't make them correct by any stretch, but they certainly aren't based on unevidenced writings that are thousands of years old written by long lost civilisations that didn't understand the universe they found themselves in.

You said that you mocked beliefs, fullstop. Which would indicate that you did not view your various positions as qualifying as beliefs also.

Do you have scientific evidence to support the belief that all people deserve equal treatment? If so, I would very much like to see it, since a lot of the moral framework for our society does indeed seem to be based on those ancient writings and centuries worth of intersubjective engagement with them. Trying to disentangle that is a project I am very interested in, so if you have any genuine insights to offer, I would be interested.

On the other hand, the insistence that we now understand our universe to such a degree that anything that earlier civilizations might have had to say about it is antiquated and not worth looking at is modern hubris. As a culture, we need to get over ourselves and learn to look at things from other perspectives once more. The Greeks and Romans and classical Indians were not idiots.

 

[Jimmy D]

My question in general to atheists was if they believed the universe had a beginning. No points scored or anything like that. Was just curious and many have answered.

I honestly don't know.

I can get my head around the Big Bang, but how it happened and what preceded it.... I'll leave that to the physicists.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Does this not make a process an intelligence?

Clearly not, considering that my breathing and eating share the same tube part of the way, making choking possible. Evolution just promotes what works best out of what traits already exist and any new traits that come about through mutation. Since mutation very obviously doesn't favor beneficial traits, this makes the situation of survival equate to "get by with what you get or die trying". It's a cruel system that results in immensely high rates of death, extinction, and general suffering.

 

[Neogaia777]

Quantum Physics/Mechanics/theory is what led me away from Atheism (or not believing), (along with other things)...

But, the science that led me away from Atheism (essentially), would have to be Quantum Physics/Mechanics and Quantum Theory...

God Bless!

 

[redleghunter]

Evolution just promotes what works best out of what traits already exist and any new traits that come about through mutation.

As you describe the above there are changes in information. From what we can observe such complex changes which include information changing usually requires an intelligence behind it.

 

[PsychoSarah]

As you describe the above there are changes in information.

DNA isn't information in the sense you are thinking of, especially considering the fact that very different sequences can result in the exact same protein product. In fact, people only refer to DNA as containing information because it's super difficult to describe it to laymen otherwise. Kinda like how neuron signalling is compared to toilets. Neurons don't actually function like toilets, but toilets are way more familiar than neurons are so it helps with explanations that don't go into much depth.

From what we can observe such complex changes which include information changing usually requires an intelligence behind it.

Then you'd have to believe that the deity you believe in intentionally instigates a ton of changes to DNA of which the majority do absolutely nothing. Something I am pretty sure any intelligent being would view as a completely pointless thing to do.

Also, mutations aren't complex at all and are an inevitable result of the cell's imperfect duplication and maintenance mechanisms.

 

[mark kennedy]

2 million years... Let's see that is about 125,000 generations...

So explain why even if your oft-repeated assertion has merit, it is a problem again?

You are not one of these 'gradualism means all things must occur via tiny increments' are you?

Because if you are, I would suggest you learn a bit about how genotype affects phenotype. Hint - it is not the way you seem to want to believe.

That's fine, a gradual accumulation of mutations would make sense, if the human genome didn't vary by 1/10th of 1%. We diverge from apes by at least 4% and were contemporary with them in Africa until about a million years ago. Two million years ago the Hominid line starts with a cranial capacity just over 400cc. These skulls all are more like a chimpanzee then a human:

Australopithecus afarensis: AL 288-1
Australopithecus africanus: Taung 1
Lucy a Chimpanzee
Taung Skull not Human-like 26 August 2014​

With the demise of Piltdown man the Taung Child became the flag ship of the hominid transitionals. It is small even for a chimpanzee and the genetic basis for such a dramatic development of brain related genes remains a complete mystery. You don't get 7 million years of accumulated traits, this has to happen 2 million years ago and become permanently fixed. What's more brain related genes do not respond well to mutations, ever.