The Science of Creation

[Assyrian]

Now you are being silly. The scientific unit of love is the chocolate bar.

 

[USincognito]

Now you are being silly. The scientific unit of love is the chocolate bar.

Oh come now. Everyone knows that candy bars are a measurement of fun.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Oh come now. Everyone knows that candy bars are a measurement of fun.

No no no, you're thinking of marshmallows.

 

[Assyrian]

Don't forget the active ingredient in chocolate is theobromine

 

[Benwilbur]

Correct. But that doesn't mean you can move freely about them. Our temporal dimension, for instance, moves everything inexorably forward. Just because an entity can move freely in the second and third temporal dimensions doesn't mean it can move freely in our temporal dimension.

But our Temporal dimension is part of the 3 he exists in.
All dimensions above INCLUDE the ones below. We are not separate universes.

So? That doesn't mean the dimension doesn't exist. In this hypothetical, spacetime is ultimately 5D, regardless of whether we can detect it, or whether anything has length in it. You previously said that, if nothing "is in" a dimension, then that dimension doesn't exist.

To us It doesn't Exist.
How can we measure or even know something is there if There is nothing there.

If an entity exists "outside of time", then it can do absolutely nothing. It cannot change, it cannot enact change. It is completely immobile, and completely impotent.

Outside of OUR Linear Time!
God can move freely around ours.
But also can move outside of it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But our Temporal dimension is part of the 3 he exists in.
All dimensions above INCLUDE the ones below. We are not separate universes.

Exactly: he doesn't exist in three separate temporal dimensions. Of the three temporal dimensions he exists in, one of them is our one. Thus, like us, he is forced to move inexorably along it.

To us It doesn't Exist.
How can we measure or even know something is there if There is nothing there.

Because there is something there: spacetime itself. But that's not the point: you said the dimension doesn't exist, period.

 

[artybloke]

*sigh* You say God MUST be Unexplainable. Do you care to tell me where in the Bible it Says he CAN NOT and CAN NEVER be Explained.

I didn't say God MUST be unexplainable. I said God IS unexplainable. When it says that we cannot look on the face of God and live, isn't that what it means?

Besides, the Bible isn't God, so what does that have to do with it?

 

[Benwilbur]

Exactly: he doesn't exist in three separate temporal dimensions. Of the three temporal dimensions he exists in, one of them is our one. Thus, like us, he is forced to move inexorably along it.

But it is not like a Conveyor Belt. Time does not Move. We Move Through time.
It wouldnt be as conveyor belt it would just be a line that we walk on.
He would not be forced to move through time as we are

Because there is something there: spacetime itself. But that's not the point: you said the dimension doesn't exist, period.

It doesnt exist To our Perception.
If nothing is there it might as well not exist.

 

[Benwilbur]

I didn't say God MUST be unexplainable. I said God IS unexplainable. When it says that we cannot look on the face of God and live, isn't that what it means?

Besides, the Bible isn't God, so what does that have to do with it?

Of course the Bible isn't God but it is the Word of God.
If the Bible does not say that we cannot Explain God. Then Why Do most Christians Believe it.
Because they Assume God cannot be explained.
Just because someone/something is Massively More Powerful than us does not mean that suddenly we cannot explain it.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

But it is not like a Conveyor Belt. Time does not Move. We Move Through time.

Exactly: the conveyor belt itself doesn't move. The underwater current does not itself move. The individual components do, but then entire system is stationary. It's just an analogy: moving inexorably in a line.

It wouldnt be as conveyor belt it would just be a line that we walk on.
He would not be forced to move through time as we are

Why not? You keep saying that, because he exists in more temporal dimensions than we do, he is somehow exempt from the arrow of time phenomenon.

It doesnt exist To our Perception.

Neither do electrons. What's your point?

If nothing is there it might as well not exist.

So? It doesn't matter if you go all anthropocentric and deem yourself too pompous to acknowledge the dimension: the dimension still exists, whether you like it or not. That's the long and short of it, regardless of whether you say it might as well not exist: it does exist. The same is true with a door: there's so little matter in a door that it may as well not exist. But such arrogance is clearly flawed: what little is there is vitally important.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Of course the Bible isn't God but it is the Word of God.
If the Bible does not say that we cannot Explain God. Then Why Do most Christians Believe it.

Because, to some Christians, the Bible isn't the only source of theological data. God could have said directly: I am inexplicable.

Because they Assume God cannot be explained.
Just because someone/something is Massively More Powerful than us does not mean that suddenly we cannot explain it.

It's more than that: most Christians ascribe to an infinitely powerful deity, not a limited one.

 

[Benwilbur]

Exactly: the conveyor belt itself doesn't move. The underwater current does not itself move. The individual components do, but then entire system is stationary. It's just an analogy: moving inexorably in a line.

Why not? You keep saying that, because he exists in more temporal dimensions than we do, he is somehow exempt from the arrow of time phenomenon.

If you exist where you can move around time. for he can step outside the conveyor belt. and walk around and see any point in time he wants.
You see a Conveyor belt implies that we only exist at 1 point in time. But if He looks back just a lil bit we are there too.
Time doesn't move. WE don't Move through it.
We are just playing out a pre-determined "Script" for time so to speak.
But also to someone who can walk up and down our "Script.
Picture it as we, us in our temporal dimension, are a Movie.
God can fast forward, rewind or just play through our time. But he can also go to any other point he wants.

So? It doesn't matter if you go all anthropocentric and deem yourself too pompous to acknowledge the dimension: the dimension still exists, whether you like it or not. hort of iThat's the long and st, regardless of whether you say it might as well not exist: it does exist. The same is true with a door: there's so little matter in a door that it may as well not exist. But such arrogance is clearly flawed: what little is there is vitally important.

You are stating it as a Fact. It is not a Fact. It is an Idea. Now I will acknowledge that it is possible. But I do not think it matters because It won't affect us in any way.

 

[Benwilbur]

Because, to some Christians, the Bible isn't the only source of theological data. God could have said directly: I am inexplicable.


It's more than that: most Christians ascribe to an infinitely powerful deity, not a limited one.

It is not a matter of what they KNOW is True, Or what is written to them.
Christians WANT to believe in a "Infinitely Powerful Deity"
They REFUSE to believe God can be explained because they Do not WANT God to be explained.

 

[artybloke]

Of course the Bible isn't God but it is the Word of God

No it's not. Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1etc)

If the Bible does not say that we cannot Explain God. Then Why Do most Christians Believe it.

How do you "explain" something using scientific concepts that are neither in the Bible nor known to the Bible writers? You cannot explain divinity using human concepts.

Just because someone/something is Massively More Powerful than us does not mean that suddenly we cannot explain it.

How do you "explain" something outside the universe, in terms that only apply to the universe? The only way to explain God is through analogy, metaphor, poetry.

You seem, like most fundamentalists, to be tied to a very 19th Century materialist version of truth where everything that exists can be explained "scientifically." You're trying to fit God into the box called "Scientific Rationality": I'm afraid he doesn't fit.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

If you exist where you can move around time. for he can step outside the conveyor belt. and walk around and see any point in time he wants.
You see a Conveyor belt implies that we only exist at 1 point in time. But if He looks back just a lil bit we are there too.
Time doesn't move. WE don't Move through it.

No, we do move through time. It is a dimension akin to, but nonetheless different to, spacial dimensions. We move inexorably forward in that temporal dimension. If God exists in our temporal dimension plus two bonus ones, why is he suddenly exempt from the rules governing the first? All you have done thus far is assert that the extra two dimensions would grant him leave. But the 1D conveyor belt becomes a current in 3D: you can't just "step outside" it.

We are just playing out a pre-determined "Script" for time so to speak.
But also to someone who can walk up and down our "Script.
Picture it as we, us in our temporal dimension, are a Movie.
God can fast forward, rewind or just play through our time. But he can also go to any other point he wants.

Why? By what rationale have you deduced this? All the evidence says that time is not like this. Ever heard of special relativity?

You are stating it as a Fact. It is not a Fact.

No, it is a fact. It is a series of facts that you fail to consider: just because you deem it insignificant does not make it non-existent, regardless of how much that mucks up our cosmology. The door is made of atoms, and they are so small that they may as well not exist: the door is almost entirely empty space.

Likewise, just because a dimension is void of anything does not in the slightest give you the right to summarily dismiss it.

It is an Idea. Now I will acknowledge that it is possible. But I do not think it matters because It won't affect us in any way.

According to whom? It exists, so the possibility of interference remains until disproved.

It is not a matter of what they KNOW is True, Or what is written to them.
Christians WANT to believe in a "Infinitely Powerful Deity"
They REFUSE to believe God can be explained because they Do not WANT God to be explained.

I don't suppose you can support this accusation? Or is it mere conjecture on your part?

 

[Benwilbur]

How do you "explain" something outside the universe, in terms that only apply to the universe?

God is not Outside the universe.
He is only outside our Dimension.

 

[Benwilbur]

No, we do move through time. It is a dimension akin to, but nonetheless different to, spacial dimensions. We move inexorably forward in that temporal dimension. If God exists in our temporal dimension plus two bonus ones, why is he suddenly exempt from the rules governing the first? All you have done thus far is assert that the extra two dimensions would grant him leave. But the 1D conveyor belt becomes a current in 3D: you can't just "step outside" it.

Your not getting it.
To our Perception we move through time of course. And to us we do.
But in reality Everything in Time already Happened to someone outside it.
We are simply playing out pre-determined Events.
These Events can be seen simply by looking farther up the line of time.
Time is not a Conveyor Belt in Reality. It is only a Conveyor Belt to US.
If you do not understand this There is no way for me to completely explain it. I am trying to explain it the best I can but Explaining it is far more difficult than understanding it.

No, it is a fact. It is a series of facts that you fail to consider: just because you deem it insignificant does not make it non-existent, regardless of how much that mucks up our cosmology. The door is made of atoms, and they are so small that they may as well not exist: the door is almost entirely empty space.

That analogy had a flaw. If the Atoms Didn't Exist the Door wouldn't Exist. However if the Extra dimension would suddenly go away then come back we wouldn't know the Difference

Likewise, just because a dimension is void of anything does not in the slightest give you the right to summarily dismiss it.

Of course not, But I do not yet understand your point of argueing if we live in another dimension seeing as it does not matter.

According to whom? It exists, so the possibility of interference remains until disproved.

What? If nothing is in that dimension then it does not Matter does it. For it cannot affect us, for there is nothing to affect us.

I don't suppose you can support this accusation? Or is it mere conjecture on your part?

Actually this is more Psychology. than Physics.
But yes it is a Conjecture. But I have talked to hundreds of Christians about this and most would argue for a bit then at the end they'd say something about How Great he is and what he did, how can he be explained etc....
It gets annoying I hear the same thing quite often.
Christians Refuse to Believe God can be Explained even if the Evidence is right in front of their Face.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Your not getting it.
To our Perception we move through time of course. And to us we do.
But in reality Everything in Time already Happened to someone outside it.

And what, pray tell, is your justification for this claim?

We are simply playing out pre-determined Events.
These Events can be seen simply by looking farther up the line of time.
Time is not a Conveyor Belt in Reality. It is only a Conveyor Belt to US.
If you do not understand this There is no way for me to completely explain it. I am trying to explain it the best I can but Explaining it is far more difficult than understanding it.

You are conflating what we know about time, with conjecture worthy of Star Trek, with a spectacular misunderstanding of spacetime continua.

That analogy had a flaw. If the Atoms Didn't Exist the Door wouldn't Exist. However if the Extra dimension would suddenly go away then come back we wouldn't know the Difference

According to whom? You are presupposing that only matter can affect us, but this is not the case: spacetime itself is crucial to our existence.

Of course not, But I do not yet understand your point of argueing if we live in another dimension seeing as it does not matter.

Because it does matter. As I have said several times now, you do not get to decide whether something matters or not: you must justify your claims, rather than throw around blind conjecture.

What? If nothing is in that dimension then it does not Matter does it. For it cannot affect us, for there is nothing to affect us.

My response to this is above, but I have another question for you: what exactly do you mean by "nothing is in that dimension"? If this is a typo, then I must stress the importance of proper English in discussions such as these; a slip in conjugation can change the entire meaning of a sentence.

Actually this is more Psychology. than Physics.
But yes it is a Conjecture. But I have talked to hundreds of Christians about this and most would argue for a bit then at the end they'd say something about How Great he is and what he did, how can he be explained etc....
It gets annoying I hear the same thing quite often.

And from your talks you took away... what? An infuriation against all Christendom for not praising your pseudo-science as the new Summa Theologica?

Christians Refuse to Believe God can be Explained even if the Evidence is right in front of their Face.

Except a) you haven't "explained" God at all (what does that even mean?), and b) there isn't even evidence of God's existence, let alone inner mechanics.

 

[artybloke]

God is not Outside the universe.

Then your god is a created being, therefore you're worshipping an idol. God is the creator of the universe, he isn't the universe.

 

[artybloke]

God is not Outside the universe.

Then your god is a created being, therefore you're worshipping an idol. God is the creator of the universe, he isn't part of the universe, any more than an artist is "part of" his painting.