The scarlet beast is....

Truth7t7 said:

I will stick with the good Ole KJV translators 412 years and going strong

The Beast (A Man) (His Number) a future literal human man, just as the KJV translators wrote, nothing added or taken away

Revelation 13:18KJV
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

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Guess you can't count then

Douggg said:

Nope, it is only the horns and heads on the beast out of the sea that are men.

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Men? LOL. Men swimming out of the sea?

Douggg said:

Ten horns - kings

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No...

Here the number ten signifies fullness, and the horns signify power. So this imagery is to illustrate the fullness of time these kings have "power" to rule along with the Beast. As it is written:

Revelation 17:12

• "And the ten horns (power) which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive Power (horns) as kings one hour with the beast."

The horns signify the "power" they had to rule with the beast for this short period. Not ten men. Not ten human kings, presidents, or foreign ministers, whatsoever you are hoping for.

Douggg said:

Seven heads - kings, of which only one head is mortally wounded, but healed.

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Again, the 7 heads symbolize authority. Have you forgotten that the book of revelation is obviously a symbolic book that only can be understood spiritually discerned? Not literal?!

Douggg said:

The beast king is the one mortally wounded, but healed head.

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No such thing as "beast king." The beast is Satan. He lost his authority but will regain the authority to deceive again after Chirst finish building his church. That is what the head being wounded and healed signifies!

Douggg said:

Verse 7 introduces the mystery of the scarlet colored beast that has 7 heads and 10 horns. The mystery about Satan, in verse 8.

You have linked king eight, the beast king, as "who was, is not, even he is", correct ?

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Yes, if you're talking about the beast referenced in Revelation 17:8. But, I need to ask you about how you worded this because what you said here is not right.

Revelation 17:8 (NIV): The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

It isn't correct to describe this beast as the beast "who was, is not, even he is". That's not what it says. It says the beast "once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction". And then that beast is referenced again later in the verse as the beast that "once was, now is not, and yet will come".

I assume your understanding of the beast as being the beast "who was, is not, even he is" comes from the KJV translation of the verse?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you believe that the beast that "was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" is a different beast than "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."? If so, that is not true. That is more easily seen in the NIV version that I quoted above. If you are seeing this verse as speaking of two different beasts, then your confusion must be coming from how it is worded at the end of the verse. But, when it says the beast "yet is", it's not saying "he is" as you said above. That would be ridiculous when it just said the beast "is not". That's contradictory. No, when it says the beast "yet is" it means it "yet is" to come out of the bottomless pit in the future.

Douggg said:

King 8 is of the seven kings, i.e. related to them. He is not the entire scarlet colored beast, which includes all the kings.

King 8 is the beast in Revelation 17:8b, said to be "who was, is not, yet is" is not the entire scarlet colored beast. King 8 is an end-times king that will be in relationship with Satan. That's part of the mystery about Satan.

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As I've said, the beast does take different forms over the years, but it's still just the one beast. There are not two beasts who were, are not and are yet to come out of the bottomless pit, so you referencing "the beast in Revelation 17:8b" as if that is a different beast than the beast referenced in Revelation 17:8a is just not accurate at all. And, as I already showed, the beast referenced in Revelation 17:8 is the scarlet colored beast. There is simply no basis whatsoever for seeing three different beasts in Revelation 17. You have come up with a doctrine that is all your own which raises a big red flag.

Douggg said:

It is impossible for there to be only one beast entity in Revelation 17.

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No, it is impossible for there to not only be one beast entity in Revelation 17. To say otherwise shows again your willingness to twist scripture to say whatever you want it to say.

TribulationSigns said:

KJV is a good translation but it is not infallible.

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Exactly. The KJV Bible worship that I see from some people is disturbing. Do they somehow not know that the original Bible was not written in English? The original words of the Bible authors, written in Hebrews, Aramaic and Greek are infallible, but the English translators were not infallible.

A few translations have "mankind or "humanity" there instead of "a man" and some translations like the NIV have "a man" but include footnotes that say "or humanity's number".

TribulationSigns said:

And true to God's word, we have trustworthy, reliable, copies of the original manuscripts from which the KJV of the Bible is translated.

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Exactly. And we have good Hebrew and Greek resources that help us understand what the original words mean whenever there is a question on that.

TribulationSigns said:

And we can reference them when we have questions about a translated KJB word, a theologian's interpretation, or an introduction of a word that doesn't belong. For example:

Revelation 13:18

• "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

By this examination of the original copy, we know that this verse actually says, the number 666 is the number of man, and not the number of "A" man as it has been translated. There is no article 'a' there, just as there is none in any other verse with the exact same construction. i.e.,

Romans 2:9

• "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of Man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

Or again, as we see demonstrated in Corinthians:

1st Corinthians 2:9

• "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart Of Man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

See? There is NO ARTICLE "a" there, just as there is none in Revelation chapter 13. Or again, as seen in such contexts as Revelation chapter one:

Revelation 1:13

• "And in the midst of the seven candlesticks, one like unto the Son Of Man..."

Not the Son of "a" man, but the Son of Man. But I digress. I simply want to demonstrate that we know this "because" we have the actual original "copies" of the originals. Without them, one might surmise that God was talking about the number of a "particular" Man, rather than the number of man (Mankind). We know this because not one jot or title of God's word has been lost. Selah

Now...based on your insistence of "A" man in order to protect your flawed doctrine, let's test your wisdom on this to see if this comes from God. Tell us how do you count the number of "a" man since God said it is also the number of the beast and his number is Six Hundred Three score and six. So... how do you count that single number of "a" man then? Let's hear this from you!

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Yep. Why people don't take things like this into account is beyond me. I believe the reason that the beast's number is 666 and is the number of mankind is because mankind falls short of the glory of God. The number 7 symbolically represents perfection and completeness. So, you could say that 777 is God's number and represents the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the number 666 represents how sinful mankind falls short of God's glory.

Douggg said:

God is Who will bring the person back to life in disdain for him, to finish the mystery of God as He hath declared to his servants the prophets.

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Wrong. You are making that up. You have no scriptural support for this claim whatsoever. Instead, what scripture teaches is that the wicked (unbelievers) will be resurrected unto condemnation. They will stand before the throne to give an account of themselves and then will be condemned and cast into the lake of fire. The idea of God resurrecting someone to mortal life on the earth is not taught anywhere in scripture. Not even close.

Douggg said:

There is the mystery of Satan in Revelation 17:8 and there is the mystery of God in Revelation 10:11 - in the end times which God is going to destroy Satan and his kingdom of Mystery, Babylon the Great, and make Satan a terror no more. Just as there will the wrath of Satan, and the wrath of God.


Isaiah 14: 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

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Where does this say anything about some beast being bodily resurrected from the dead in a mortal body? It doesn't. Is this all you have to support your wild claims?

Spiritual Jew said:

Exactly. The KJV Bible worship that I see from some people is disturbing. Do they somehow not know that the original Bible was not written in English? The original words of the Bible authors, written in Hebrews, Aramaic and Greek are infallible, but the English translators were not infallible.

A few translations have "mankind or "humanity" there instead of "a man" and some translations like the NIV have "a man" but include footnotes that say "or humanity's number".


Exactly. And we have good Hebrew and Greek resources that help us understand what the original words mean whenever there is a question on that.


Yep. Why people don't take things like this into account is beyond me. I believe the reason that the beast's number is 666 and is the number of mankind is because mankind falls short of the glory of God. The number 7 symbolically represents perfection and completeness. So, you could say that 777 is God's number and represents the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and the number 666 represents how sinful mankind falls short of God's glory.

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Revelation 13 :8 (A Man) (His Number) a literal human man just as the KJV Translators wrote

Douggg said:

...and the 666 number is the number of a specific man's name.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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And?

Truth7t7 said:

And?

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And how about you telling us how to count the number of "a" man which is the number of the beast? We are waiting? Or are you avoiding answering my question because you can't? Don't give us the excuse that you do not know because your Superman hasn't arrived yet, humm?

TribulationSigns said:

And how about you telling us how to count the number of "a" man which is the number of the beast? We are waiting? Or are you avoiding answering my question because you can't? Don't give us the excuse that you do not know because your Superman hasn't arrived yet, humm?

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One thing I know, Revelation 13:8 clearly teaches of a future human man (A Man) (His Name)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly teaches this (Man Of Sin) will be revealed to the world and church on earth, proclaiming to be God/Messiah returned

Jesus Is The Lord

Truth7t7 said:

One thing I know, Revelation 13:8 clearly teaches of a future human man (A Man) (His Name)

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Rev 13:8
(8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you really understand what God is talking about here?

The people that dwell upon the earth, the people of the world, the infidels, the unbelievers who are outside of the Covenant Church, these are the names that were NOT written in the Book of Life. Because they were never part of the Corporate Congregation of God, they were not written as part of the "Covenant Registration." As an example of this, the people of Old Covenant Israel (the old testament Church) could have their names blotted out, while the heathen nations could not. This was because they were corporate "representatives" of the Covenant congregation of God. They were the Covenant sons of God...externally. Consider Deuteronomy:

Deuteronomy 9:12-14

• "And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
• Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
• Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they."

While God doesn't use the word book here, it is clear that this blotting out from heaven is the removal of the names of these Children of Israel from the "symbolic" Kingdom of God registration. In other words, they would be cut off from among the people of God, even as God gave example after example of this throughout scripture. So again we see their names written in heaven signifying their collective Covenant Position with God. While the heathen around them were those whose names were not written in the book of heaven. The same with those outside the Covenant Congregation today. They are not Covenant people, and as such, their names were not written in the Book. For the book "symbolizes" those who are part of the covenant family.

Revelation 17:8

• "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Here we see God telling us that those "True Believers" are those chosen, whose names were written in the Book from the foundation of the world. In other words, written eternally by God. That is a very important distinguishing characteristic between them, and those who were merely called but not chosen. It's like God writing our names unto life, versus man joining to write his own name. Or God's work of inclusion (which is His Grace), versus man's efforts to become children of God (works). This verse confirms God's inclusion of some names in the covenant registration from the foundation of the world.

Those called (the corporate congregation) but not chosen, are spiritually registered as the Church, and thus can have their names blotted out. Just as the Lord told Moses about the congregation, and as the fall of Israel so clearly illustrated in branches broken off the Covenant tree. God's people corporately, can be cut off/blotted out. Blotting out does not defeat the doctrine of eternal security, it illustrates some of God's corporate people are not actually born of God, were never sealed of the Spirit, and thus never had any security. And the fact that those who are not blotted out had to be those written from the foundation of the world," is a testimony to eternal security in Christ alone! The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The elect can never be blotted out of the Book of Life, because they are not there of their own merit (or continuing merit), nor by free will, they are there by the finished work of Christ. Written from the foundation of the world. How then could they be blotted out, except the Lord be not omniscient? Christ is "both" the author and finisher of their faith. So they cannot fall because they were chosen in Christ long ago that they "would" conform to His image.

Ephesians 1:4-5

• "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
• Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

So we should know (from scripture) the folllowing three things without ambiguity.

1. There are Covenant children, written from the foundation of the world, in the Book of Life.
2. There are Covenant children who are written in the Book of Life, but not from the foundation of the World, and not truly saved because they can be blotted out.
3. There are people outside the Covenant who were not written in the Book of Life at all.

If one can be blotted out of the Book of Life because of sin, then "obviously" that person never was saved in the first place. For God is immutable, and he doesn't save someone from the foundation of the world, only to lose them. He doesn't pay for someone's sins, and then unpay for them. That simply cannot be.

Therefore, in Revelation 13:8, the beast is actually SATAN, not a single man, whom everyone not found in the Book of life, from Cain to the last unsaved person, will worship! Not the end time phenomenon since the beast (Satan) existed over time, even before the Cross. Remember, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition"

Selah.

Truth7t7 said:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 clearly teaches this (Man Of Sin) will be revealed to the world and church on earth, proclaiming to be God/Messiah returned

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The spirit of Antichrist is Satan, and this spirit is the great deceiver who works within men so that they serve him thinking they serve God. All those who have this spirit are called Antichrists by God. They come in the power of Satan deceiving people by usurping the authority of Christ while saying, Lord, Lord. In other words, these claim they bring the gospel of Christ, a peace and safety in lawlessness. They come teaching 'thus saith the Lord, when the Lord has not said' because they are substitute or Anti christs. God warns of them in many different passages and in many different ways.

Mark 13:22

• "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

When Christ prophesied of false Christs and false prophets coming in times of great tribulation, He is speaking of the MANY antichrists. Not one. Those substitute or pseudo Christs that would arise. Again, by definition, a false Christ is someone that is "in place of" the true Christ. This is in agreement with the whole of scripture concerning these under strong delusion to serve Satan and yet want the name of Christ. These are men usurping the authority of Christ (His Word) to become their own Christs. Once the spirit of Satan enters into the unfaithfulness of God's congregation, they become Antichrists. And every one of them as lawless man, Satan's spirit agents, they are deceived and they go forth deceiving.

Ephesians 2:2

• "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the Prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

The spirit that works within the children of lawlessness or disobedient is the spirit of Satan. The child of disobedience is the same as the man of lawlessness (often translated "man of sin"). Disobedience is lawlessness, and lawlessness in God's house is of the spirit of Antichrist. The great apostasy is when man starts to rule the Lord's Temple 'as if' he were Christ himself. Ergo, the false Christs whom Jesus warned his people to beware of.

Mark 13:22-24

• "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
• But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
• But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,"

Christ talked about MANY false christs and prophets, not your one evil superman fantasy. Contrary to popular opinion, one man isn't literally required to verbally declare, "I am Christ," in order to qualify as a false Christ! All he has to do is usurp the authority of the Word and take Christ's place in the Holy Temple (Church). All he has to do is rule God's house (the congregation) by his own will and teach by what is from his own imagination. Then by definition he is substituting himself for the Word, he is a false Christ. Imagine that with many churches all over the world! When man rules and seizes authority from God that he might say thus saith the Lord when the Lord has not said, he makes himself Christ. When man falsely claims that "God will allows this, and God winks at that, and God is not against the other," He is the false prophet, he is an antichrist, he is a false Christ. He is the man of sin! For he professes to be of Christ, and yet by his actions he works against Him, in essence he denies Him in favor of the image he himself has created. The authority of Christ is His infallible unadulterated word, and anyone 'substituting' their own words for the Word of God, is carnal and worshipping the image of the Beast. He has become the lawless man, an antichrist exalting himself to high places. This indeed is the true teaching illustrated in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2:

2nd Thessalonians 2:3-4

• "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
• who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
• shewing himself that he is God."

The sinful man is seen here in a portrait of a false Christ 'because' he positions himself sitting (signifying ruling) in the Holy Temple of God "as if" he were God. He is by implication substituting his opinions, theories, interpreation, or words, for God's word. Selah! He is thus the disobedient, the lawless man, the man of sin. For the true Christian, Jesus Christ is the Living Word who rules in the Temple. If man in the spirit of antichrist substitutes his own rules (laws) for God's, he has by the spirit of Antichrist made himself ruler in the Temple. He doesn't have to literally say I am Christ the ruling king, he makes himself the ruler and false Christ by usurping the authority of Christ. By his disobedience to God's laws, He is the man of lawlessness. Selah!

God illustrates throughout His word that an Antichrist is more than someone who verbally denies Christ in the flesh, he is one who denies Christ by His works. Think about it, why would someone who denies Christ literally or verbally, be ruling in the churches? God's servants would be aware of that and he would deceive no one in the church. That would be an Atheist, and it would make no sense for him to rule the church. On the other hand, it is he who claims to be serving Christ, and yet rationalizes away God's word and cleverly twists God's word, and stealthily removes God's word, that will deceive the church which is happening today! That's the man of sin's strong delusion! That is the great deception! That is the clever misrepresentation that will seduce an unfaithful congregation! Not an atheist, or someone from former Roman Empire in Europe, but an antichrist, a man ruling in place of Christ in many churches all over the world! It is one who denies the authority of God's law by chicanery substituting his own interpretations, rules and words for God's.

Look dear souls, it is incumbent upon God's children to examine the 'substitute' aspect of this word as Antichrist. For example, when Christ warns, "for many shall come in My name saying I am Christ and shall deceive many" (Matthew 24:5). He wasn't talking about a few mentally deranged individuals who might think or literally claim that they are Christ. At best these could deceive only a few gullible people. Christ was talking about the MASSIVE MANY ANTICHRISTS who come looking like a Lamb, but speaking like a Dragon! Many false Christs praise the Lord with their lips, while they have their own authorities and are substituting themselves as the rulers of Churches, in opposition to God's divine word. I am talking about people like Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyers, Jack Van Impe, Joseph Prince, and many others like the frogs that come out of the mouth (word) of the devils! They indeed are not a few deranged individuals, but are the many wolves in sheep's clothing who indeed deceive many "exactly" as prophesied. Please understand this!

Show me a man who literally says, "I am Christ," and I'll show you a man who is almost universally mocked, who can at best deceive few. But show me a man of lawlessness in the church, with deceiving lips causing many to fall away from the inerrant authority of the Word, and I'll show you Antichrist, the man of sin! I'll show you the man of sin ruling in the Temple of God 'as if' he was God. I'll will show you the false prophet and the false Christ. A church body that is not ruled by Christ (the word), is ruled by man. Many will be deceived and believe that this is the Christ. That is the fall of the external and corporate church where the abomination of desolation does stands! Read for yourself in Revelation 11:1-2. Selah!

Your imagination about one man from Europe someday will sit on Temple Mount in Jerusalem before a talking statue will not pass the test of Scripture because this is not what God talks about. People are being deceived by man-made false doctrines like this! A doctrine that spews out of the mouths of the very false prophets and christs IN THE CHURCH Jesus warned us before. He has told us before if he has ears, let him hear!

@Spiritual Jew

Douggg said:

(read through my post #108, for the "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is" the second graphic)

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I can't tell from looking at your ridiculous graphic what your answer to my question would be. It doesn't even reference Revelation 17:8a as far as I can tell. So, can you just use words to answer it, please?

Do you believe that the beast that "was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" is a different beast than "the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."? Yes or no, please.

Douggg said:

In Isaiah 14, verse 20 - he is not buried.

Isaiah 14: 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

The problem is that you don't understand what is going to happen. Entered into by Satan, the son of perdition will go into the temple, sit, claiming to have achieved God-hood, 2Thessalonians2:2-4.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Then in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God is angered by his act, and has strangers come against him to kill him, assassinate him. His soul, accompanied by Satan, then goes into hell, to the sides of the bottomless pit (the bottomless pit, where the garden of eden serpent beast spirit, now is).

Next go to Isaiah 14, to see what becomes of the revealed man of sin's soul in hell.

Isaiah 14:15 is talking about Satan, him brought into hell along with the son of perdition.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Then, Isaiah 14:16 the residents of hell are talking about the revealed man of sin, who Satan will have entered.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

Isaiah 14:17, the residents of hell continue to mock the revealed man of sin about his demise.

Isaiah 14:18 is God speaking about how the kings of the earth, bodies are buried in fancy ornate tombs.

Isaiah 14:19 is God speaking that He is not going to let the revealed man of sin have that same honor. That He is going to cast his soul out of hell before his body is even buried.

Isaiah 14:20 is God saying why He is not got to let him be laid to rest in an ornate fancy tomb. "because thou has destroyed thy land, and slain thy people."


Here is my graphic of what is then going to happen, as his soul is cast out of hell....

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Pure, hilarious nonsense. That's all I can say in response to this. God is not going to resurrect some evil person in the future into a mortal body. Won't happen. That contradicts scripture, as I have shown and as you have ignored. You clearly do not care if you interpret things in such a way that contradict other scripture. Nowhere does scripture teach that any evil person will be resurrected with a mortal body after which they go on living their lives on earth in the future. Instead, scripture clearly indicates that all unbelievers who are resurrected from the dead will be condemned to the lake of fire (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, Rev 20:15).

Douggg said:

How can you not understand that the beast currently in the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit, will sometime in the future ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess the end times person's soul, as the end times person comes back to life?

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That is absurd. You claim that the Beast is being stuck in the bottomless pit with its disembodied spirit, will possess a human's soul and resurrected it to life so the world wondered after him?

My goodness. This is not what Bible actually teaches but, of course, that is typically premillennial doctrine based nor supported on Scripture.