The Scapegoat...

[Carl Emerson]

Friends,

It seems in old covenant practice that the only time sins were ritually placed on a sacrifice was in the case of the scapegoat.

It seems that a fundamental point of argument at the time of the protestant reformation was whether our sins are 'placed' on Jesus or not.

Can I have some discussion around this please.

How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

 

[mkgal1]

Can I have some discussion around this please.

How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

I don't think you'll see this the same as I do, but since the 3 persons of the Trinity can't be divided, this is what's made sense to me (and I appreciate the language that Fr. Richard Rohr uses here):

Quoting Fr. Richard Rohr: Jesus replaced the myth of redemptive violence with the truth of redemptive suffering. He showed us how to hold the pain and let it transform us, rather than pass it on to the others around us. Spiritually speaking, no one else is your problem. You are first and foremost your own problem. There are no bad goats to expel. ~ Jesus Reveals the Lie of Scapegoating — Center for Action and Contemplation​

 

[HTacianas]

Friends,

It seems in old covenant practice that the only time sins were ritually placed on a sacrifice was in the case of the scapegoat.

It seems that a fundamental point of argument at the time of the protestant reformation was whether our sins are 'placed' on Jesus or not.

Can I have some discussion around this please.

How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

Honestly, the scapegoat is not part of Christianity. But it is the likely origin of Barabbas of the gospel. Jesus Barabbas, or Bar Abbas, meaning "son of the father" was "released into the wilderness", while Jesus the lamb was sacrificed. Take that for what it's worth.

Christianity focuses on the blood of the sacrifice taken into the holy of holies and sprinkled inside. The "silence in heaven" of the Revelation symbolizes the point of the liturgy when the high priest took the blood from the altar into the temple.

 

[BrotherJJ]

Leviticus 16:8,10,21 & 22
8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
NOTE: 2 Goats, lots were cast/basically a coin toss. That decided which goat was sacrificed unto the LORD & which one the Priest imputed (vs 21-22 below) the entire Nations sins onto.)

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
NOTE: One is offered to the LORD)

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness
(NOTE: This scapegoat was lead out of the city, taken into wilderness. This way the people could see/had a visual of their sins being carried away. A shadow of the coming Messiah. Where did Jesus go after he was baptised = The Wilderness, Matt 4:1 Mk 1:12.)

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
(NOTE: Only the High Priest & only on the Day of Atonement, could impute ALL the Nations sins onto this sacrifice

22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Find related content here:

From The Levitical Priestly Order To: The Order Of Melchizedek | Christian Forums

 

[Carl Emerson]

Honestly, the scapegoat is not part of Christianity. But it is the likely origin of Barabbas of the gospel. Jesus Barabbas, or Bar Abbas, meaning "son of the father" was "released into the wilderness", while Jesus the lamb was sacrificed. Take that for what it's worth.

Christianity focuses on the blood of the sacrifice taken into the holy of holies and sprinkled inside. The "silence in heaven" of the Revelation symbolizes the point of the liturgy when the high priest took the blood from the altar into the temple.

Yes the blood I get because God demanded life for sins. However the issue is the laying of sins on the sacrifice is not addressed. This is the issue that divided Protestant and Catholic I believe.

 

[disciple Clint]

Friends,

It seems in old covenant practice that the only time sins were ritually placed on a sacrifice was in the case of the scapegoat.

It seems that a fundamental point of argument at the time of the protestant reformation was whether our sins are 'placed' on Jesus or not.

Can I have some discussion around this please.

How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

2 Corinthians 5:21 New International Version (NIV)
21 God made him who had no sin to be sina]">[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53:6 New International Version (NIV)

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Jesus did not take our sins He could not do that because He was man and God. God could not sin or become sin. He paid the price for our sins.

 

[Scott Husted]

Friends,

It seems in old covenant practice that the only time sins were ritually placed on a sacrifice was in the case of the scapegoat.

It seems that a fundamental point of argument at the time of the protestant reformation was whether our sins are 'placed' on Jesus or not.

Can I have some discussion around this please.

How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

In some ways I dont believe it does.

I believe where the goat is let loose in is just as important as the goat itself.

 

[mkgal1]

However the issue is the laying of sins on the sacrifice is not addressed. This is the issue that divided Protestant and Catholic I believe.

Jesus willfully took on our sin, right?

John 10:18 ~ No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”


John 16:8 ~ He will show the world how wrong it was about sin, about who was really in the right, and about true judgment”
​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I suggest it could be the product of a confusion of perspectives.

For the blindness of the Jews, they scapegoated Jesus, just as they sacrificed him to their foreign gods in the high place of Calvary.

But that wasn't God's perspective. He knew their bloodlust, their idolatry, their fallen ways, so allowed them to roll forward and out of darkness He produced light, Jesus the Paschal Lamb, the aleph-tav Word, the new Moses, the new Joshua and the last Adam.

The devil got rolled for all time, but he's ambitious and keeps trying to have us slide into the one-eyed Jewish perspective, at which he's very subtle.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Does anyone argue that the scapegoat was Judas?

 

[mkgal1]

God demanded life for sins.

Did He? Or is it that He understands that is what humanity calls for? The "someone must pay" mentality - even when it's sin within ourselves (we often search for another place to project our guilt/shame). So He took it all on....absorbed it....forgave it.

All we have are the different theories about the process....but the idea that our loving and life-giving God demanded life for our sin never made sense to me. That seems to be in opposition to God's character.

Jeremiah 19:5 ~ They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!​

 

[mkgal1]

Does anyone argue that the scapegoat was Judas?

There's a way that Judas is used as a scapegoat, when he's blamed for the death of Jesus by betraying Him.

But Judas didn't "take away the sin of the world", as John the baptizer first introduced Jesus as doing:

John 1:29 ~ The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!​

 

[mkgal1]

“He himself bore our sins” in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24

 

[icxn]

...(NOTE: This scapegoat was lead out of the city, taken into wilderness. This way the people could see/had a visual of their sins being carried away. A shadow of the coming Messiah. Where did Jesus go after he was baptised = The Wilderness, Matt 4:1 Mk 1:12.)

Usually it is the actions/interactions denoted by the verb or verbs that define the pattern to be associated with another passage. Once a common narative is found, then the subjects and objects can be allegorized to make the association. Your association with Christ spending time in the wilderness is not entirely wrong, but it's not the ideal narrative of being presented alive before the Lord and making atonement.

I fully agree with you that both goats represent Christ. Two are used to denote two different aspects of His atoning work for us, by the shedding of His blood and through His intersessions to the Father (1 John 2:1-2). The latter is what is suggested by the verse, “But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat” (Leviticus 16:10). The phrase “presented alive” points to His resurrection, whereas the phrase "before the Lord" and "by sending away" point at His ascension to heaven and His sitting at the right hand of the Father. The wilderness is used here to represent heaven. This interpretation also applies for the cleansing of a leper using two birds, one of which is killed and the other released (Leviticus 14).

 

[1213]

...
How does the scapegoat relate to Christ?

Were our sins placed on Him at crucifixion?

I think the whole sacrifice of Jesus on cross is metaphorically, because, no one killed him as a sacrifice and it was possible to forgive sins without killing, before Jesus died.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

 

[Carl Emerson]

Did He? Or is it that He understands that is what humanity calls for? The "someone must pay" mentality - even when it's sin within ourselves (we often search for another place to project our guilt/shame). So He took it all on....absorbed it....forgave it.

All we have are the different theories about the process....but the idea that our loving and life-giving God demanded life for our sin never made sense to me. That seems to be in opposition to God's character.

Jeremiah 19:5 ~ They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!​

Heb 9:
22According to the Law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

 

[Scott Husted]

I think the whole sacrifice of Jesus on cross is metaphorically, because, no one killed him as a sacrifice and it was possible to forgive sins without killing, before Jesus died.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

Hung on a tree ... a serpent on a pole ...

Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool."

Barabbas was the one let lose who went into the wilderness...

 

[mkgal1]

Heb 9:
22According to the Law, in fact, nearly everything must be purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Right, and you can find all the instructions for the temporary sacrificial system in the Old Testament as well. But what I'm trying to express is that I don't believe that's because that is the system that ultimately pleased God. It was a pagan system to appease gods through sacrifice. I believe that, because that was familiar to God's people during that period of time, He used that familiarity to reveal His love in becoming the perfect sacrifice. Once and for all. He not only *covered* sin temporarily (as the animal sacrifices did) but removed sin - forgave it - forever.

 

[disciple Clint]

“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 1 Peter 2:24

Adam Clarke Commentary 1 Peter 2:24
Bare our sins in his own body - Bore the punishment due to our sins. In no other sense could Christ bear them. To say that they were so imputed to him as if they had been his own, and that the Father beheld him as blackened with imputed sin, is monstrous, if not blasphemous.
Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Bare our sins - There is an allusion here undoubtedly to Isaiah 53:4, Isaiah 53:12. See the meaning of the phrase “to bear sins” fully considered in the notes at those places. As this cannot mean that Christ so took upon himself the sins of people as to become himself a sinner, it must mean that he put himself in the place of sinners, and bore that which those sins deserved; that is, that he endured in his own person that which, if it had been inflicted on the sinner himself, would have been a proper expression of the divine displeasure against sin, or would have been a proper punishment for sin. See the notes at 2 Corinthians 5:21. He was treated as if he had been a sinner, in order that we might be treated as if we had not sinned; that is, as if we were righteous. There is no other way in which we can conceive that one bears the sins of another. They cannot be literally transferred to another; and all that can be meant is, that he should take the consequences on himself, and suffer as if he had committed the transgressions himself.

 

[mkgal1]

To say that they were so imputed to him as if they had been his own, and that the Father beheld him as blackened with imputed sin, is monstrous, if not blasphemous

This is an important point from Adam Clarke.The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One.