If Jesus is the Savior, then we aren't.
If we are the Savior, then Jesus isn't.
It's not rocket science...
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The saving value of good works
- Thread starter Starlight11
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If Jesus is the Savior, then we aren't.
If we are the Savior, then Jesus isn't.
It's not rocket science...
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
I understand that. So how is receiving eternal life based on judgment of works incompatible with that idea when Christ himself is the source of the meritorious works?
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B
bbbbbbb
Guest
The difficulty in your statement is the concept of "meritorious works". Outside of your theology there is no such concept, especially in the Bible, which, in theory, is the basis for Catholic theology and not the other way around.
This is not to say that Christian works are useless and insignificant or that they proceed from human inspiration. Rather, they do not enable a person to become a believer in Jesus Christ and thus merit their salvation.
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Have you heard of the concept of "working together"? If two men together construct a building, whose work is it?
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In theology, when applied to soteriology, this is called synergism.
If Jesus was unable/unwilling to save us and needs us to do the critical part, then IMO we have an impotent "Savior" and the real Savior is the one who did what He could/would not.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
It's Christ's work that we produce good works because the works are due to his grace.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
...or, Jesus saves us by giving us the effective and potent grace which sanctifies us, giving us faith and bringing forth good fruits of us. It's not rocket science.
Just like it's not rocket science that the branches are saved or destroyed according to how much fruit they produce, though the saved branches only produced fruit because the True Vine gave them what was necessary to produce it.
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If it's HIS work, then it's His work - and perhaps HE is the Savior.
If it's my work, then it's my work - and I then am the Savior.
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ivebeenshown
Expert invisible poster and thread killer
And if the work of the grace of Christ is the effective cause of our actions then...
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A lifeguard that did nothing more than throw me something isn't a Savior. I at least in part saved myself.
What you are describing is classic synergism. It's the concept that Jesus is not THE Savior but is the PART Savior. He did something (perhaps even an essential part) but He left out the critical part - perhaps being unable to do what was needed (and we have to help Him - we being able to do what the Son of God is not). It proclaims that there are billions of Saviors - Jesus + every Christian. Jesus did what He could, perhaps - it just wasn't enough. He is in eternal gratitude for us doing what He couldn't/wouldn't. It's synergism. I don't agree with it.
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ivebeenshown
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You appear to simultaneously oppose it and affirm it. After all, you claim that we as humans have to DO something by the power of the grace of God to be saved -- we have to BELIEVE, and TRUST.
I could spin it around on you: are you saved because YOU believe and trust in Jesus, or because Jesus believes and trusts in himself? And if it is we who have to believe and trust to be saved, why wasn't Christ's work good enough? Why do we still have to do something to be saved? Ah, but our belief and trust is by the grace of God, so it truly is the work of Christ!
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God gives faith.
Soli Deo Gloria!
There are two options:
1. Jesus is the Savior, in which case I'm not.
2. I'm the Savior, in which case Jesus is not.
1. It is. Which is why I embrace Him as the Savior.
2. I don't. Which is why I'm not the Savior.
If MY works are what leads to justification, then I'm the Savior.
If JESUS' works are what leads to justification, then Jesus is the Savior.
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ivebeenshown
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You have to believe and trust in Jesus to be saved, right? Or do we not have to do that?
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fhansen
Oldbie
I know. But monergists cause me a bit of nausea- a cloying kind of feeling-coming across as overly self-congratulatory for their self-perceived extra abundance of humility and gratitude towards God-really based on nothing more than an intellectual concept about how salvation works and a somewhat faulty understanding of fallen human nature. I don’t buy it. God sets the parameters. And if He wants to save us by having our wills involved in our spiritual resurrections/rebirths, that makes perfect sense to me-since mans will was involved in the fall. God was never looking for robots; He may has well have prevented Adam & Eve from sinning to begin with-or forgave them immediately-instead of kicking them out of the garden and allowing all the pain, drama, and suffering that ensued. What we do counts, as in all of life.
No synergist, at least of my ilk, believes that salvation comes on his own, i.e. he knows his will is totally uninvolved in the lifesaver being thrown. We come to God because He draws us (John 6:44), we love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). But we don’t have to come, we don’t have to love, we don’t have to answer the call-just like Adam & Eve didn’t have to obey. Nothings changed-and yet everything’s changed! God‘s made reparation for our sins-sins against Himself-He’s reconciled himself with man-the offended forgiving the offender-a clean slate, a total reprieve-we know we can now start over. But will we even take the offer? Will we even care? And if we do admit our sinfulness and accept forgiveness, will we, can we, ‘go, and sin no more’? And will we persevere, invest our talents, feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc?
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ivebeenshown
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So what you're affirming is that we have to actually DO something to be saved --- where that something is believing and trusting in Jesus --- yet while we are the ones actually DOING the trusting and believing, Jesus is still reckoned as the savior because our actions of believing and trusting flow from the grace of God?
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No.
If you read what I've posted, my point has been the exact opposite.
I believe that Jesus is the Savior.
I'm not.
Next month, I will be celebrating the birth of the Savior.
Not the part savior.
When January 23 rolls around (my birthday), I will not be celebrating the birth of the Savior (or even part Savior).
IMO, the Catholic songwriter Franz Joseph Mohr was correct in his very Protestant proclamation in his classic Christmas carol, Silent Night, as he wrote in stanza two, "... Christ the Savior is born...." (Christ der Retter, ist da) Not "Christ the PART Savior is born" (you may think the deletion was nothing more than artistic license mandated by the meter, and thus give him an excuse for this strong Protestant statement).
If it's MY works that justifies - then I'm the Savior (Glory be to Me)
If it's Christ's works that justifies - the the Savior is Christ (Soli Deo Gloria)
Which do YOU think it is?
On Christmas, will you celebrate the birth of the Savior?
Or the PART Savior (commemorating your own birthday likewise)?
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