The saving value of good works

[ivebeenshown]

This is silly. Yes, God created me, I exist (as a result of His work).
There is also air.
Water is H2O in liquid form.

Now what ANY of that has to do with Jesus being or not being the Savior, I just don't know.

Unless I am mistaken, your claim is that nothing humans do can contribute to their salvation, otherwise Christ cannot rightly be called "the Savior." Correct me right now if that is not something you claim.

You acknowledge that you exist -- the subject, 'you', does the verb 'exist' -- and this contributes to your salvation. It's something that you are doing. You are existing. You exist. That is a necessary component of your salvation.

 

[heymikey80]

In classical philosophy/theology God is described as 'Actus Purus', the act of being. In grammar, 'action verbs' are distinguished from 'be verbs', but all verbs are something which is done by a subject. Existing is something that is done by you and I, possible only by God's grace.

In classical philosophy, not everything is a cause, either. As many, many, many subjects can't actually "work", it would be rather remarkable to accuse the water of drowning, for instance. It bears no ill will, much less intent.

"Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due." Rom 4:4

Cite the wages for the work of "existence".

Paul then removes all wages for work. Nothing you do is done for salvation wages from God.

"not of works". Eph 2:9 Nothing you work will result in salvation.

Now, if you want to argue Paul's terminology with Paul, be my guest. But I'll be forced to point out, Paul was historically considered Pope over the Church at Rome before Peter.

 

[Rick Otto]

You acknowledge that you exist -- the subject, 'you', does the verb 'exist' -- and this contributes to your salvation. It's something that you are doing. You are existing. You exist. That is a necessary component of your salvation.

Are you not only taking credit for the essential part of your salvation, now you want to take credit for your existing?
Yeah, it is something you do, but it is of God's doing, just like belief.
It is not of yourself.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Unless I am mistaken, your claim is that nothing humans do can contribute to their salvation, otherwise Christ cannot rightly be called "the Savior." Correct me right now if that is not something you claim.

I haven't claimed anything.
I have been exceedingly clear.


IMO, Christ is the Savior.
That means I'm not.
Is there anything confusing in my belief?


IMO, IF salvation (or just the "essential, necessary" part of it) is a result of MY work then I'm the Savior.
If salvation is the result of Jesus' work, then Jesus is the Savior.
Is there anything confusing there to you?


IMO, any position that claims that self is the Savior or that Jesus is only PARTLY the Savior strips Jesus of His blessed role.
I wonder how He can then honestly be called "the Savior."
A position that strips Jesus of being the Savior seems to ME to gut Christianity of it's key, foundational point.


I realize, you disagree with me. To the core. Our Orthodox friend even more so.


I DO find this discussion troubling - but above all, sad. Profoundly sad.




.

 

[Forge3]

As mentioned before good works may be a 'sign' of salvation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As mentioned before good works may be a 'sign' of salvation.

I doubt than any here deny that good works are the fruit of justification (salvation). They, however, do not precede justification and do not play a role in justification.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Ah ... that last sentence ... Scripture for it is lacking. Injecting non-Scripture into Scripture isn't a great way to confirm the truthfulness of a statement.

As Augustine said, God is entirely capable of working in the human will to make the unwilling, willing.

So then the question revolves back around to you, why He doesn't?

And what does it mean,

"He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them." John 12:40

Which part is non-scriptural? That we are created in his image or that we possess free will?

So why doesn't God violate our free will? I don't think we have to look any further than Adam and Eve with the tree for a better example that he does not. Why didn't God violate Adam and Eve's free will in the garden so that they didn't eat of the Tree? He could have, but he didn't. Think about all the trouble it would have saved! Yet, man chose to fall, God allowed man to do this; i.e. he respected their right to choose.

God desired that Adam and Eve not eat from the tree. He gave them a command not to. Yet he allowed them to do so. Neither did he guard the tree with guards/angels so they couldn't eat it. They had a choice. If you say that it was not adam's will to eat from the tree, but God's, then God would be conspring with Satan the tempter to tempt man to go against God's very command, and this we know would be blasphemy. God is not a trickster.

Regarding your quote from John (According to St. John Chrysostom

Isaiah's prophecy does not mean God causes spiritual blindness in people who would otherwise have been faithful. This is a figure of speech common to Scripture revealing God as giving people up to their own devices ( as in Rom. 1:24,26) What is meant by he has blinded is that God has permitted their self-chosen blindness ((compare Ex 8:15,32 & Ex. 10:20,27). They didn ot become blind because God spoke through Isaiah, burt rather Isaiah spoke because he foresaw their blindness.

Scripture shows that God clearly desires the salvation of ALL men. So you contend that God can and does manipulate people's free will so that they will choose Him. Why then does God not save all men?

Again, if He wants to; he is both willing and able, why does he not save all men? The mystery line is not a satisfactory answer; as this is a fundamental contradiction that has been injected into Christian theological circles at a later time, and needs to be able to explain itself. Otherwise, one could invent all kinds of illogical inconsistencies which seem to have scriptural support and claim they are "mysteries".

BTW, it is one thing for Augustine to say that God is capable of doing it, and another for him to say that God actually does it. If God actually does intervene into a person's free will to make the unwilling willing, then this necessitates the belief in universal salvation, (because God desires the salvation of ALL men), which belongs in Unorthodox Theology.

 

[heymikey80]

Which part is non-scriptural? That we are created in his image or that we possess free will?

Which part is rhetorical?

Regarding your quote from John (According to St. John Chrysostom

So God says "He has blinded", but Chrysostom reads "He has allowed". Mkay. My esteem for Chrysostom drops.

What was it about God not being a trickster -- I don't think He is, which is why He should be read for what He says.

 

[MamaZ]

Do you believe that man has to believe and trust in Jesus Christ so that he can be saved? If so, then that act of believing is an excellent example of man doing something effectual for salvation by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

I beleive that it is from God that Faith comes. It is all from God. When one is born again this new birth comes from God and not man. For we are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of itself but is a gift from God. For it is God who enlightens the person and quickens the person and gives the person New birth.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

I beleive that it is from God that Faith comes. It is all from God. When one is born again this new birth comes from God and not man. For we are saved by Grace through Faith and that not of itself but is a gift from God. For it is God who enlightens the person and quickens the person and gives the person New birth.

3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So why then is it that all are not saved and come to the knowledge of the truth if God desires it?

 

[MamaZ]

So why then is it that all are not saved and come to the knowledge of the truth if God desires it?

If God willed all men to be saved and born again they would be. Cuz there is nothing Greater than He. No human will is more powerful than Gods will.

 

[fhansen]

If God willed all men to be saved and born again they would be. Cuz there is nothing Greater than He. No human will is more powerful than Gods will.

Unless He allows it. Didn't Adam & Eve defy God's will? Or is the notion of sin a lie?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

If God willed all men to be saved and born again they would be. Cuz there is nothing Greater than He. No human will is more powerful than Gods will.

Yet we know from scripture that He does desire it...very clearly in fact. So what accounts for this discrepancy between God wanting all to be saved and all not being saved in reality?

 

[MamaZ]

Unless He allows it. Didn't Adam & Eve defy God's will? Or is the notion of sin a lie?

Did they? Or did they listen to a different voice? They did not just all of a sudden decide ya know what. I don't care what God says I am going right now to eat that fruit. Eve was beguiled by Gods worst enemy. Adam heard the voice of Eve. Then sin entered and man died and became sinful from then on.

 

[MamaZ]

Yet we know from scripture that He does desire it...very clearly in fact. So what accounts for this discrepancy between God wanting all to be saved and all not being saved in reality?

You will have to quote the scripture you speak of and in its full context of who it was being said to at the time.

 

[MamaZ]

Someones works of any kind will not gain salvation. Salvation is of Grace through Faith and not of works.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

You will have to quote the scripture you speak of and in its full context of who it was being said to at the time.

Here are some:

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. (1 Tim 2, NIV)

1 Timothy 2 NIV 1984

8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3)

2 Peter 3 NIV 1984

30“Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18)

Ezekiel 18 NIV 1984

 

[fhansen]

Did they? Or did they listen to a different voice? They did not just all of a sudden decide ya know what. I don't care what God says I am going right now to eat that fruit. Eve was beguiled by Gods worst enemy. Adam heard the voice of Eve. Then sin entered and man died and became sinful from then on.

Either way, God's will isn't necessarily done on earth which is why we pray for His will to be done in the Lords Prayer. Sin would be impossible if not for the freedom of man to oppose God's will.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Someones works of any kind will not gain salvation. Salvation is of Grace through Faith and not of works.

Yet we also know that faith without works is dead.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is uselessd? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”e and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 2 NIV 1984

 

[MamaZ]

When one has been gifted with Faith works will follow. But the works in no way justify us. For there is only one who justifies and that His Christ and the shed blood at Calvary and being born of His Spirit. For no man can come to Christ less the Father draws Him. Many heard and seen Christ. Even those who were the covenant people of God. Why may I ask could they not believe?