The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[Rick Otto]

Holy Fathers? THey got a few things right:

"The Rock (petra) is the blessed and only rock of the faith confessed by the mouth of Peter. It is on this Rock of the confession of faith that the Church is built." --Saint Hilary of Poitiers (c. 315-368), 2nd Book on the Trinity
"If you believe that God has raised the whole building of His Church on Peter alone, what will you say of John, the Son of Thunder? What will you say of each of the apostles? Will you venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter in particular, but shall prevail against all the others . . . ? Are not the words addressed to them all?" --Origen, Commentary on Matthew
"Christ is the Rock Who granted to His apostles that they should be called rocks. God has founded His Church on this Rock, and it is from this Rock that Peter has been named." --Saint Jerome (419 A.D.) 6th Book on Matthew
"Faith if the foundation of the Church. For it was not the person, but the faith of St. Peter of which it was said, 'the gates of hell shall not prevail;' certainly it is the confession of faith which has vanquished the powers of hell." --Saint Ambrose (397 A.D.)
"The Rock on which Christ will build His Church means the faith of confession." --Saint John Chrysostom (407 A.D.) 53rd Homily on Saint Matthew
"Christ said to Peter . . . I will build thee upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee. Those who wished to be built among men said, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas. However, those who did not wish to be built upon Peter but upon the Rock say, I am of Jesus Christ." --Saint Augustine (430 A.D.) Retractions, 13th Sermon
"I believe that by Rock you must understand the unshaken faith of the apostles." --Saint Hilary (368 A.D.) 2nd Book on the Trinity
"This one (Peter) is called a rock in order that on his Faith (Rock) he may receive the foundations of the Church." --Saint Gregory of Nazianzen (390 A.D.) 26th Discourse
"The word 'Rock' has only a denominative value--it signifies nothing but the steadfast and firm faith of the apostles." -- Saint Cyril of Alexandria (444 A.D)
"The Bishop of Alexandria shall have complete control and jurisdication over Egypt, Libya, and the Pentapolis. As also the Roman bishop over those as are subject to Rome. So too, the Bishop of Antioch and the rest of the bishops shall have complete control and jurisdication over those faithful who are under them." --First Ecumenical Council, Canon 6
"Rock is the unity of faith, not the person of Peter." --Saint Cyprian (258 A.D.) De Catholicae Eccesiae Unitate, cap. 4-5
"In the administration of the Church, each bishop has the free discretion of his own will, having to account only to the Lord for his actions. None of us may set himself up as bishop of bishops, nor compel his brothers to obey him; every bishop of the Church has full liberty and complete power: as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another." --Saint Cyprian (258 A.D.)
"If we also say, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, then we also become Peter . . . for whoever assimilates to Christ, become the Rock. Does Christ give the keys of the Kingdom to Peter alone? whereas other blessed people cannot receive them?" -- Origin, Homily on Matthew XIIx

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Holy Fathers? THey got a few things right:

by another, neither can he judge another." --Saint Cyprian (258 A.D.)
"If we also say, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, then we also become Peter . . . for whoever assimilates to Christ, become the Rock. Does Christ give the keys of the Kingdom to Peter alone? whereas other blessed people cannot receive them?" -- Origin, Homily on Matthew XIIx

From what I understand, the Pope of the RCC is the Holy Father of the Holy Fathers...I could be mistaken tho

http://www.christianforums.com/t6381194-2/#post40460720
Holy Father.

Holy Father is a name title for God, according to scripture. John 17:11. I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

And?????

Pope means Papa too............he's our spiritual father who leads his flock.......

 

[Rick Otto]

How many fathers can one guy & one church have?
See what happens when you start handing it out as a religious title?

 

[Thekla]

How many fathers can one guy & one church have?
See what happens when you start handing it out as a religious title?

Paul used the title "father" re: himself.

It would seem to me that if a Church is not adding "fathers" over the centuries, there's a problem.

Both in the sense of ECFs and spiritual fathers (Paul would qualify as both - most over the centuries did, in fact).

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't recall Paul using it as a title, being referred to as "Father Paul" or requesting being called "Father Paul". What did I miss?
Actually, I consider having more than one titled Father being more a problem, and additionaly so in the absence of as many "Mothers".
It would seem to me qualification requires ignoring scriptural admonition on the part of the qualifiers.

 

[Thekla]

I don't recall Paul using it as a title, being referred to as "Father Paul" or requesting being called "Father Paul". What did I miss?
Actually, I consider having more than one titled Father being more a problem, and additionaly so in the absence of as many "Mothers".
It would seem to me qualification requires ignoring scriptural admonition on the part of the qualifiers.

Here's one example:

For though you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have you not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Cor. 4:15

Actually, there are more female Saints than males

 

[Rick Otto]

I easily believe there are more women "Saints" (as a title),
still I don't see Paul using the word as a title or suggesting he be refferred to as "Father Paul".

 

[Thekla]

I easily believe there are more women "Saints" (as a title),
still I don't see Paul using the word as a title or suggesting he be refferred to as "Father Paul".

It may seem from the "outside" to be a title; I don't understand it to be a "title" per se. (Nor Saint to be a "title", any more than "saint" is a title.)

Paul calls himself "father"; spiritual fathers have the same role as Paul. (There are centuries of extant epistles of 'spiritual fathers', and are still being written.)

 

[Rick Otto]

Calling yourself father a few times is different than having it betowed or bestowing oneself with it as a title. Being one & being entitled as "Father~" are different.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Calling yourself father a few times is different than having it betowed or bestowing oneself with it as a title. Being one & being entitled as "Father~" are different.

My observation in reading the Acts and the Pauline epistles is that Paul preferred to be known as an Apostle (see my thread on the topic) and never as Father Paul.

 

[Thekla]

Calling yourself father a few times is different than having it betowed or bestowing oneself with it as a title. Being one & being entitled as "Father~" are different.

It describes a relationship, a skopos, a charisma.

I'm not sure why it needs to be such a big deal ...

 

[Thekla]

My observation in reading the Acts and the Pauline epistles is that Paul preferred to be known as an Apostle (see my thread on the topic) and never as Father Paul.

I think "apostle" is a "higher dignity" than "father".

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think "apostle" is a "higher dignity" than "father".

I quite agree.

 

[fhansen]

It describes a relationship, a skopos, a charisma.

I'm not sure why it needs to be such a big deal ...

It's only a big deal for hyper-literalists who're convinced then have a direct "in" with God and His will via scripture.

 

[Rick Otto]

I'm not sure why it needs to be such a big deal ...

That is exactly what a title represents - it's a "big deal" to have one indicating the other end of the deal (us) is small.
So Jesus said not to do it... big deal.
If I was hyper-literal, I wouldn't even call my dad "father".


The only people who don't think they have a direct "in" with God via scripture are hyper traditionalists.

 

[fhansen]

That is exactly what a title represents - it's a "big deal" to have one indicating the other end of the deal (us) is small.
So Jesus said not to do it... big deal.
If I was hyper-literal, I wouldn't even call my dad "father".


The only people who don't think they have a direct "in" with God via scripture are hyper traditionalists.

No, it'd be more logical to assume it's someone who picks up the bible, reads one lone, rather obscure passage, and then presumes to pontificate authoritatively on its meaning, knowing Gods mind with certainty on the topic at hand.

 

[sunlover1]

No, it'd be more logical to assume it's someone who picks up the bible, reads one lone, rather obscure passage, and then presumes to pontificate authoritatively on its meaning, knowing Gods mind with certainty on the topic at hand.

(The bolded part by me)
Jesus' words are not considered "obscure"
and it's not a "lone passage" by any means.
It's an entire thought:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.
But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders,
but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5“Everything they do is done for men to see:
They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.b
11The greatest among you will be your servant.
12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[Rick Otto]

Don't Pontificates bear titles, wear otherworldly garb & generaly belong to one of the several orthodoxies?

 

[fhansen]

Don't Pontificates bear titles, wear otherworldly garb & generaly belong to one of the several orthodoxies?

anyone can pontificate

 

[fhansen]

(The bolded part by me)
Jesus' words are not considered "obscure"
and it's not a "lone passage" by any means.
It's an entire thought:

1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.
3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.
But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders,
but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5“Everything they do is done for men to see:
They make their phylacteriesa wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’
8“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.b
11The greatest among you will be your servant.
12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Anyone can be Pharisaical but none of that quote applies to anyone I deal with in the religious world. The arguments have already been given-and it can be argued plausibly from each side ad infinitum, the point being that scripture was simply never intended to be our personal theological handbook, like it or not.