The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[Philothei]

What would you make out for the verses that say "to the ones who have more more will be given" then? and the ones who have little even that will be taken away . Are we supposed to think he talks about "churches" I think this is reading into the Gospel and speculating and also I do not see how this relates. There are RC congregations that are small just the same..

 

[razeontherock]

Congregation size has to do with what? I still do not understand this. Sorry.

Well in a large congregation it would be easier for people to do wrong things and get away with it. In a small congregation where everyone knows everyone else, it is really impossible!

 

[razeontherock]

What would you make out for the verses that say "to the ones who have more more will be given" then? and the ones who have little even that will be taken away . Are we supposed to think he talks about "churches" I think this is reading into the Gospel and speculating and also I do not see how this relates. There are RC congregations that are small just the same..

I agree, I would not apply verses like that in this way at all. I also expect that any RC Parishes were everyone knows everyone else, no Priest has gotten away with sexual abuse. (Although it is incomprehensible to me how people would even attempt such a thing, let alone perpetrate it and get away with it)

 

[Thekla]

This will hurt! And I'm surprised you don't already recognize I do not associate with "the majority," and no, I will not defend any large or long-running establishment:

Matthew 13:31

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Notice our Lord doesn't say if a good tree, overrun with "birds of the air," can still produce good fruit, gets chopped down, or what. He has never Blessed me in any such environment, that much I know. Typically He uses me to bring about sweeping change in fledgling little communities, and moves me on ...

That's a blessing for you.

I just wanted to point out the problem is not confined. For example, a non-denominational minister (a pretty small Church) who used to live about two blocks from my house was convicted this Summer of the long term abuse of two girls in his congregation. One is still a minor, iirc. (His daughters were found to have threatened his accusers.)

As for defending or not defending any large or long running establishment, I'm not sure what is meant.

Can we judge by size, or length of existence ?
In my view, right and wrong are the issue.
Small communities can be extraordinarily dysfunctional, and short term communities can be distorted as well.
In fact, small communities can be especially efficient at closing ranks to protect wrongdoing and distortion.

Whether we can call any Church an establishment is another issue.

 

[Thekla]

One more thing occurred to me while going about my business.
For me to post what I believe, inadvertently pokes at what you believe
as your posting of your beliefs inadvertently disses my beliefs.

This is a bad thing
IMO.

I don't understand how this is the case.

Misrepresentation will have the effect of poke and diss; actual analysis and discussion does not inherently include "poking and dissing".

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-
As for defending or not defending any large or long running establishment, I'm not sure what is meant.

Can we judge by size, or length of existence ?
-snip-.

Folks, around here, do all the time as a proof of their validity. Believe EO does it too.

 

[Thekla]

Well in a large congregation it would be easier for people to do wrong things and get away with it. In a small congregation where everyone knows everyone else, it is really impossible!

As in my previous post, this is certainly not the case.

It can be comforting to think so, but a distortion of any kind will wend its way throughout the community. Small communities are quite capable of containing great problems; isolation and an insular nature can actually enable and protect wrongdoing, in fact codifying it. IE, there is no outside "check". This can be especially true in low population areas.

 

[Thekla]

Folks, around here, do all the time as a proof of their validity. Believe EO does it too.

Continuity over time is not the same as longevity.

Or perhaps Christianity, as long existing, is suspect for its longevity alone.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Folks, around here, do all the time as a proof of their validity. Believe EO does it too.

If Jesus established an organized Church, then the matter of whether or not an organization was started by Christ himself is of most importance and the age of an organization is acceptable evidence for or against the validity of said organization.

For instance, the Lutheran church is an organization that was founded in the 16th century AD. If you believe that Christ founded an organization, then the Lutheran church would not fit the criteria because not only was it founded by someone other than Christ but it does not trace its origin to the first century. If you believe that Christ did not found an organization, then it doesn't make any difference.

 

[Standing Up]

If Jesus established an organized Church, then the matter of whether or not an organization was started by Christ himself is of most importance and the age of an organization is acceptable evidence for or against the validity of said organization.

For instance, the Lutheran church is an organization that was founded in the 16th century AD. If you believe that Christ founded an organization, then the Lutheran church would not fit the criteria because not only was it founded by someone other than Christ but it does not trace its origin to the first century. If you believe that Christ did not found an organization, then it doesn't make any difference.

If you want to slice and dice and separate, the first organization was Peter preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem. But surely, you don't believe that your organization is, therefore, invalid since it came later. Right?

 

[Standing Up]

Continuity over time is not the same as longevity.

Or perhaps Christianity, as long existing, is suspect for its longevity alone.

We can see from the post above where that leads. Separation.

 

[ivebeenshown]

If you want to slice and dice and separate, the first organization was Peter preaching to the Jews in Jerusalem. But surely, you don't believe that your organization is, therefore, invalid since it came later. Right?

Incorrect. One organization may have establishments in numerous locations -- for instance, consider fast food restaurants.

 

[Standing Up]

Incorrect. One organization may have establishments in numerous locations -- for instance, consider fast food restaurants.

Could I have some luther pickles with that eastern bread and roman wine? Please.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If Jesus established an organized Church, then the matter of whether or not an organization was started by Christ himself is of most importance and the age of an organization is acceptable evidence for or against the validity of said organization.

For instance, the Lutheran church is an organization that was founded in the 16th century AD. If you believe that Christ founded an organization, then the Lutheran church would not fit the criteria because not only was it founded by someone other than Christ but it does not trace its origin to the first century. If you believe that Christ did not found an organization, then it doesn't make any difference.

I love that word "if". If Jesus wanted a reformed Levitical priesthood it seems to me that He might have said something about it. As it is, we have no record whatsoever that He said anything at all about it. However, that has not stopped organizations such as your own from inventing one and then brazeningly insisting that they are the one and only true denomination.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Could I have some luther pickles with that eastern bread and roman wine? Please.

As long as you supply the Pepto Bismol afterwards

PeptoWeb Videos

 

[ivebeenshown]

I love that word "if". If Jesus wanted a reformed Levitical priesthood it seems to me that He might have said something about it. As it is, we have no record whatsoever that He said anything at all about it. However, that has not stopped organizations such as your own from inventing one and then brazeningly insisting that they are the one and only true denomination.

In the bible, a person is authorized to fill an episcopal office by the Holy Spirit working through the leaders of the Church, as evidenced by the first chapter of Acts. Since this is the only explicit example of ordaining a bishop that we have, we can only assume that this is how God intended for leaders to be chosen for his Church, and we can only assume that bishops who have been ordained in this manner are valid and authorized bishops.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In the bible, a person is authorized to fill an episcopal office by the Holy Spirit working through the leaders of the Church, as evidenced by the first chapter of Acts. Since this is the only explicit example of ordaining a bishop that we have, we can only assume that this is how God intended for leaders to be chosen for his Church, and we can only assume that bishops who have been ordained in this manner are valid and authorized bishops.

How and why did Cardinals come to be about in the RCC? Just curious

http://www.christianforums.com/t7528025-6/#post56623302
Pope John Paul II 1 merical away to be beatified

Originally Posted by NoBama2012

The Pope beatifies Cardinal John Henry Newman in Birmingham
​

 

[fhansen]

If Jesus wanted a reformed Levitical priesthood it seems to me that He might have said something about it. As it is, we have no record whatsoever that He said anything at all about it.

Where'd you get the idea that the bible was intended to be an exhaustive ecclesial instruction manual-or even a theological one for that matter?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In the bible, a person is authorized to fill an episcopal office by the Holy Spirit working through the leaders of the Church, as evidenced by the first chapter of Acts. Since this is the only explicit example of ordaining a bishop that we have, we can only assume that this is how God intended for leaders to be chosen for his Church, and we can only assume that bishops who have been ordained in this manner are valid and authorized bishops.

Which bishop was ordained in Acts 1? The Bible I read tells me about replacing Judas, the Apostle, with Matthias, the Apostle. Apostles are not bishops. Shall we assume that the Church still has Apostles and that they are chosen by drawing lots?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Where'd you get the idea that the bible was intended to be an exhaustive ecclesial instruction manual-or even a theological one for that matter?

From II Timothy 3:16,17, among other verses. If you believe in extra-biblical revelation then you are not much of a Catholic, are you? Perhaps you might find the LDS more to your liking.