The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[sunlover1]

Let me try one more time then.
No matter what church or group I associate with,
I will ONLY submit to those that God leads me to
submit to. And even then, submission only in that
which I know God is leading.
IOW, I will not blindly follow any man willy nilly,
I don't do Kool-aid

I do not see what the difference is between one "authority" and the RC sense of "authority" someone has to be the sheppard no?
FYI there has been as much child abuse in all churches not ONLY the RC. Actually abuse of power is in ALL church communities for as much as Church is on earth there will be false leaders/teachers.

Which is why I "follow" only who GOD leads me to "follow"

That does not prove in anyway shape or form the RC been vindicated. Actually that shows partiality in judgment.

It's the RC's that continue to insist I need to blindly follow men.
This is the reason I chose to mention RC.

Authority to God is expressed in many forms... in the Church the first Christians gave authority to the Apostles you give authority to your elder. I give authority to my Bishop and my priest. The point is that there is always a person in authority. If you are a priest then why do you also have an elder? How can you be a 'minister" in that sense and also submit to one?

One can have NO authority unless one is UNDER authority.
My authority is from God.
(See story of the centurian)

Paul says that we are NOT all the same some are prophets some are teachers some are called to do healings. He sees us as bearing different gifts.

This is an entirely different topic and from what you write, and the way
you use this as an example, maybe we should make a thread about it,
I've found that the subject is much deeper than I had first understood.
(Find that is the rule with most of Scripture)

NO where it says that we are not to trust our elders and seek our own guidance.

I'm not suggesting we seek our own guidance.

Psalm 60:11 Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.

Psalm 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Isaiah 36:6 Look now, you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff,
which pierces a man's hand and wounds him if he leans on it!
Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him.

Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

New International Version (©1984)
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

He says we should be watchful but that does not mean that we should doubt our elders and be "on our own". Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.

I do trust what is given to me by the Spirit of God.
He leads me with His very voice every moment of my life.
Would God leave my salvation in another man's hands?
My safety? My childs trust? Never.
I follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, and when HE tells
me something through a man, it's ME who must discern if
that be so or not.

This is how I operate in the body, you do it as you please.
We each have a different understanding evidently.

 

[Thekla]

I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.

(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)

We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.

Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)

Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.

Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.

 

[fhansen]

I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.

(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)

We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.

Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)

Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.

Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.

I agree with this. Not all authority is valid but we also need to acknowledge a rebellious aspect of human nature which is connected to the fall: an anti-authoritarian predisposition that can manifest itself in various ways.

And it's one thing to say we believe in and follow God but when we may be defining His nature and will according to our own understanding and interpretation of scripture, I wonder if we might still be following our own will/preferences to one degree or another.

 

[Philothei]

Let me try one more time then.
No matter what church or group I associate with,
I will ONLY submit to those that God leads me to
submit to. And even then, submission only in that
which I know God is leading.
IOW, I will not blindly follow any man willy nilly,
I don't do Kool-aid

I do not see any difference when God agrees with man whether it is RC or any other church I totally disagree.

Which is why I "follow" only who GOD leads me to "follow"

It's the RC's that continue to insist I need to blindly follow men.
This is the reason I chose to mention RC.

So two problems:
If you follow God ONLY how sure you are you doing so? What is taking place in the RC can take place in any church... individually. Again you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.

One can have NO authority unless one is UNDER authority.
My authority is from God.
(See story of the centurian)

Again this is wrong following men means following an elder. We are all under the authority of God

This is an entirely different topic and from what you write, and the way
you use this as an example, maybe we should make a thread about it,
I've found that the subject is much deeper than I had first understood.
(Find that is the rule with most of Scripture)

what exactly you see unrelated?

I'm not suggesting we seek our own guidance.

Psalm 60:11 Give us aid against the enemy, for the help of man is worthless.

Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.

Psalm 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes.

Isaiah 2:22 Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?

Isaiah 36:6 Look now, you are depending on Egypt, that splintered reed of a staff,
which pierces a man's hand and wounds him if he leans on it!
Such is Pharaoh king of Egypt to all who depend on him.

Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.

New International Version (©1984)
Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.

I do trust what is given to me by the Spirit of God.
He leads me with His very voice every moment of my life.
Would God leave my salvation in another man's hands?
My safety? My childs trust? Never.
I follow the voice of the Good Shepherd, and when HE tells
me something through a man, it's ME who must discern if
that be so or not.

This is how I operate in the body, you do it as you please.
We each have a different understanding evidently.

God leaves your salvation to you...Can you be wrong? Then if we cannot trust any man the importance to the elders is lost and the whole ministry is problematic then because there are many Apostles and elders not all are worthy still this does not negate the calling to be one or the Church that ordains them. I think you confuse one for the other. Men are inspired by the Holy Spirit it is just contradictory to admit this for yourself but exclude all others from it. It just again does not make sense.

I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.

(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)

We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.

Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)

Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.

Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.

Obedience to God is part of knowing God (just to add on) how else can we know God if we do not lay down our lives and egos to hi Will?

"The begining of Wisdom is the fear of God" Respecting God is obaying Him and trusting Him.

 

[Standing Up]

-snip-
If you are a priest then why do you also have an elder? How can you be a 'minister" in that sense and also submit to one?

If your understanding of the issue followed the foreshadowing at Egypt (each family was the priest, as in priesthood of believer), rather than the notion of a separate tribe of NT priest, it'd be easier to grasp. In fact, your next paragraph answers your question.

Paul says that we are NOT all the same some are prophets some are teachers some are called to do healings. He sees us as bearing different gifts. NO where it says that we are not to trust our elders and seek our own guidance. He says we should be watchful but that does not mean that we should doubt our elders and be "on our own". Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.

IOW, in the church there are different callings from hearing God, if we do not set up the intermediary priest.

Understand?

 

[Standing Up]

I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.-snip-

Isn't that the truth? No kidding. Been going on for a long time unfortunately. Pure evil and men sat by.

 

[razeontherock]

That does not make too much sense as in your church you have elders... I do not see what the difference is between one "authority" and the RC sense of "authority" someone has to be the sheppard no?

The RC "sense of authority" has, as Sunlover said, seen children led by wolves who prey upon the flock, and come to the defense of the wolves rather than the children. That is someone who needs NOT to be the shepherd!!

FYI there has been as much child abuse in all churches not ONLY the RC. Actually abuse of power is in ALL church communities for as much as Church is on earth there will be false leaders/teachers.

That does not prove in anyway shape or form the RC been vindicated. Actually that shows partiality in judgment.

Disagreed. I have NEVER come in contact with abuse of power in a single Church community. NEVER. I cannot agree it exists in all communities, nor will I believe child abuse takes place in all Churches.

Let me ask you, how many adult survivors of childhood abuse by RC Priests do you know who are currently in therapy, and their lives are for all practical purposes, ruined by this? I find it odd and quite telling that I have never moved in RC circles and yet I know such people, while I know many times more Pr's but know of no such individual in any comparable situation on the Pr side.

So I don't think there is any partiality in judgment here; it is reality. (My reality, anyway)

Authority to God is expressed in many forms... in the Church the first Christians gave authority to the Apostles you give authority to your elder. I give authority to my Bishop and my priest. The point is that there is always a person in authority.

Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.

I do see what you're saying and you make good points. Still, the shoe doesn't fit when aiming this at Sunlover, and if I'm not mistaken it doesn't really describe how EO operates either. How many times has an EO Church rejected a Bishop, Priest or Father? I mean, it is a built-in part of the process, right? The congregation / laity has power, and a LOT of it in the organization, correct? Using that is held to be a vital part of the process of the Holy Spirit leading the Church? (Or do I have all that wrong?)

This also naturally leads into something Thekla and I discussed, which is the concept of "collegiality" in Church organization / leadership. This is something I do not at all know the mind of the Church on, but it interests me! I have somewhat recently been exposed to the idea that original / Biblical leadership is "a plurality of equals," and I'm not sure how that concept might compare to "collegiality." I think a very relevant concept is that it's not supposed to function on a level of "Priest says X, Bishop says Y, so we go with Y." It's supposed to be unanimous agreement, isn't it?

Anyway I think all of this is very much on topic for this thread! Where does authority lie? How is Christ's authority expressed via mortal men? How does that compare to Scripture itself? All vital stuff here! Hopefully we can all share and experience God's Love increasingly ...

"Thy Kingdom come"

 

[razeontherock]

I may be wrong, but it seems there is a misunderstanding - that somehow the idea of obedience has been mistaken for a sort of slavishness; it is not that at all.

(At least in the EO, history demonstrates this.)

We are all responsible to follow God, and this includes both obedience to our elders and also the ability to not obey what is contrary to God.

Discernment is not ours though, but a gift from God, and the ability to discern aright is a reflection of spiritual maturity. (It can start out as the will to follow a cluster of precepts, but that is not the same thing.)

Discernment, as gift, is also reliant on our 'cleansing'; of a growing awareness of our stains, wounds, scars and even "hang ups". This comes to mind, from a hymn: "... from the years of my youth many passions combat me ..." Here, passions are not just strong feelings, but the effect of difficulties in our lives which over time become impediments to right being in Christ.

Thus, it is a constant struggle to know whether we are responding to a fact or a passion - and thus the need for struggle and cleansing. Obedience is part of this struggle, as what we react for or against can in part be self revealing - allowing us an opportunity for self inspection in God.

I have to ask - how can anyone who even professes to Love God, read this with anything but awe and reverence? May ALL our leadership actively live out such ideals! I don't like using the word "symbolic," but when people offer the Body and Blood of Christ for other people to partake of, is not what you write here at least part of what is being communicated?

(I'm guessing you had a wonderful and meaningful service this morning )

 

[razeontherock]

I do not see any difference when God agrees with man whether it is RC or any other church I totally disagree.

Again you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.

Please notice I chopped out 2 different statements you made, and put them together in the hopes that you will see more clearly what Sunlover is actually saying, and that it is something you both agree with and practice!

I think she is saying she would submit to anyone who the Lord shows her deserves to be in that position, and further that Scripture has everything to do with it, although she is not limited to merely the words on a page, nor her own understanding of those words. (And if I'm mis-stating her position, I'm sure she won't hesitate to correct me!)

 

[sunlover1]

I think she is saying she would submit to anyone who the Lord shows her deserves to be in that position, and further that Scripture has everything to do with it, although she is not limited to merely the words on a page, nor her own understanding of those words. (And if I'm mis-stating her position, I'm sure she won't hesitate to correct me!)

Oh my. I just read through the most recent posts and I truly feel that
there's much confusion, and I'm as much at fault as anyone because I
tend to 'assume' we're all on the same level and in the same stage in our
walk. Not only that, but that we can read each other's minds.

I have a friend who does absolutely everything his doctor says, no matter
what. He was on a med for something, began having bad leg problems. I
mentioned that clots in the legs was one of the med's side effects. He quit
the meds... and the problem stopped immediately. Two weeks later he was
grumbling about the leg pain and I asked if he'd gone back on those meds.
He said that his doctor had suggested he just try them again.

Story after story of meds with this friend. If his doc said to take arsenic,
he'd take it. I see the same thing in the churches. NO WAY does God
intend for us to blindly follow "man". (I posted Scripture upon Scripture)

God did not come to put us in bondage to men.
(Actually, Jesus did NOT want us to call man "father" etc)
He gave us His Spirit, and gifts to FREE us from that bondage.

Not quite sure what other folks feel "authority" means,
but for me, it means the authority to operate in the kingdom.
God gives certain gifts and abilities, "anointing' if you will.
It's all in Scripture.
I go to God, God leads me as HE sees fit.
SOMETIMES, (often even) that involves other humans.
Sometimes, it doesn't.

As I reread my post before hitting send, it occurs to me that
the reason for most of this confusion is due to a HUGE need
for a paradigm shift in the very meaning of "the church".

If folks think that "the church" is going to a building and doing
certain actions on Sunday, then my actions seem absurd to them.

If folks think of the church as an organism that acts according to
UNSEEN, forces, in concert... toward mercy grace and liberty,...
then it's simple.

(HOPE THAT clears it up ... not sure if it went from my head to the
screen as intended.)

Anyhow
Praise be to God!

 

[sunlover1]

So two problems:
If you follow God ONLY how sure you are you doing so?

I am fully persuaded. No problem there.

What is taking place in the RC can take place in any church... individually.

It could, especially if the church was filled with
men who had no outlet for their sexual passions. God created men
with hormones for a reason. But that's another thread for sure.

Again you trust your paster as he agrees with God because YOU think he is. The same as any EO and RC we agree for we are persuaded by God that they are guided by God.

Perhaps. But not sure if it's "the same" in that I trust my pastor hears God
very well, but I don't hesitate to test the things my pastor 'teaches' me.
Just as I trust my doctor ONLY to a degree.
In the final analysis (IMO, this may be different for you) I and no one else
will answer to God for what I have chosen to believe or not believe, to do
or not to do etc.

God leaves your salvation to you...

God never leaves me or forsakes me. In fact, My salvation is in His hands.

Can you be wrong?

Probably way more than I know about even.

Then if we cannot trust any man the importance to the elders is lost

What exactly is the role of your elders that they are so "important"?
I thought we were all equal and not to elevate ANY man above another.
My understanding is that 'elders' (For the most part, but not always) have
gained more wisdom and experience with age and that they have an anointing
to do the work of the ministry,... but certainly not that they are infallible
and so I would hang on their every word...)

I think you confuse one for the other. Men are inspired by the Holy Spirit it is just contradictory to admit this for yourself but exclude all others from it. It just again does not make sense.

No... it wouldn't and I don't do that. I don't admit this for me and exclude
others at all. ALL Christians have access to the voice of God. Many don't
bother to wait on His voice though, they go to their pastor and ask of him
instead. And not all Christians will be spoken to by God. (as is written)

Hope that helps.

 

[sunlover1]

One more thing occurred to me while going about my business.
For me to post what I believe, inadvertently pokes at what you believe
as your posting of your beliefs inadvertently disses my beliefs.

This is a bad thing
IMO.

 

[Thekla]

I don't like using the word "symbolic," but when people offer the Body and Blood of Christ for other people to partake of, is not what you write here at least part of what is being communicated?

I think possibly, but I'm also not sure if I quite understand your question
Maybe to give a bit more detail ?

(I'm guessing you had a wonderful and meaningful service this morning )

This was my Sun. to stay home (my husband and myself take turns, so someone stays with our adult son).

But this morning, we were able to say morning prayers together after he woke up; what a great blessing !

 

[Thekla]

Oh my. I just read through the most recent posts and I truly feel that
there's much confusion, and I'm as much at fault as anyone because I
tend to 'assume' we're all on the same level and in the same stage in our
walk. Not only that, but that we can read each other's minds.

I have a friend who does absolutely everything his doctor says, no matter
what. He was on a med for something, began having bad leg problems. I
mentioned that clots in the legs was one of the med's side effects. He quit
the meds... and the problem stopped immediately. Two weeks later he was
grumbling about the leg pain and I asked if he'd gone back on those meds.
He said that his doctor had suggested he just try them again.

Story after story of meds with this friend. If his doc said to take arsenic,
he'd take it. I see the same thing in the churches. NO WAY does God
intend for us to blindly follow "man". (I posted Scripture upon Scripture)

God did not come to put us in bondage to men.
(Actually, Jesus did NOT want us to call man "father" etc)
He gave us His Spirit, and gifts to FREE us from that bondage.

Maybe a dichotomy is expected where one does not exist ?

The practice of obedience to an elder is not bondage (or it shouldn't be - unless we misunderstand obedience), just as any relationship is not bondage, but can be.

Not quite sure what other folks feel "authority" means,
but for me, it means the authority to operate in the kingdom.
God gives certain gifts and abilities, "anointing' if you will.
It's all in Scripture.
I go to God, God leads me as HE sees fit.
SOMETIMES, (often even) that involves other humans.
Sometimes, it doesn't.

Authority is for the Christian only given by God, yes.

And there is private prayer and corporate prayer - both are important, and both are demonstrated in Scripture.

The role of elder - like, for example Paul's eldership, is granted to some. It is a developmental role, to help others (as is evident in his epistles), and indeed (reflected in Hebrews, iirc) carries with it a greater responsibility and risk than many callings. After all, one becomes accountable for the very souls of those one leads, but we are also accountable for the spiritual struggle and soul of those who lead us. Our salvation is indeed together, corporate, as it is the body of Christ that is saved (not individuals).

As I reread my post before hitting send, it occurs to me that
the reason for most of this confusion is due to a HUGE need
for a paradigm shift in the very meaning of "the church".

If folks think that "the church" is going to a building and doing
certain actions on Sunday, then my actions seem absurd to them.

Actually, I've never met a Christian with whom I've discussed the matter that mistakes Christianity for going to a building and doing certain actions.

On the other hand, this "going to a building and doing certain actions" has been going on for 2,000 years, and corporate prayer with particular features has been included in the "be imitating" all this time.

As priest, it is our purpose in life to offer back to God in thanksgiving everything, including matter. So, we dedicate to God "holy space", a place where matter is given in dedication to Him, a place that is thus "practically useless", is not functional like a farm, or factory, or mall for the mundane in existence. A place that is returned to worshiping. "The mountains skipped like rams" - even nature has a purpose, and the Psalmist notes the joy/worship in nature. "Jordan turned back" - a river always flows away from its source, and even the Jordan per the Psalmist's description recognizes its Master and Creator. So in dedicating "holy space", "useless space", we glorify God, and allow in matter the expression of its purpose - to glorify God. Turning from this to the mundane, our eyes are hopefully renewed and opened to its purpose, that even the mountains "skip" in joy at the Creator.

If folks think of the church as an organism that acts according to
UNSEEN, forces, in concert... toward mercy grace and liberty,...
then it's simple.

(HOPE THAT clears it up ... not sure if it went from my head to the
screen as intended.)

Not unseen - Christ is with us. Seen by the spiritual heart, the true eyes. The entire creation is an organism created by God with purpose, with love and joy.

And the Church is a microcosmos of the eschaton now, when all of creation will glorify God as renewed and reunited to its purpose. And then also the Church is an organism, a worshiping community, the body of Christ, the center of healing for brokeness, where the Godman Jesus Christ administers to us in our worship of the Trinity. The healing of persons, and all of creation.

Anyhow
Praise be to God!

glory be to Jesus Christ

 

[Thekla]

It could, especially if the church was filled with
men who had no outlet for their sexual passions. God created men
with hormones for a reason. But that's another thread for sure.

I just wanted to add that there are non-RC leaders ministers etc. who are even married yet commit adultery; it is not hormones that lead us astray. As Paul points out "But if they cannot contain/egkrateuomai (self-control), let them marry ..." and " ...and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency/akrasian/lack of self control."

 

[Thekla]

Disagreed. I have NEVER come in contact with abuse of power in a single Church community. NEVER. I cannot agree it exists in all communities, nor will I believe child abuse takes place in all Churches.

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say they typically receive upward of 260 reports each year of young people under 18 being sexually abused by clergy, church staff, volunteers or congregation members.
The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been an extremely difficult phenomenon to pin down — the frequency of sex abuse in Protestant congregations.
Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year

 

[razeontherock]

The three companies that insure the majority of Protestant churches in America say

This will hurt! And I'm surprised you don't already recognize I do not associate with "the majority," and no, I will not defend any large or long-running establishment:

Matthew 13:31

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Notice our Lord doesn't say if a good tree, overrun with "birds of the air," can still produce good fruit, gets chopped down, or what. He has never Blessed me in any such environment, that much I know. Typically He uses me to bring about sweeping change in fledgling little communities, and moves me on ...

 

[Philothei]

This will hurt! And I'm surprised you don't already recognize I do not associate with "the majority," and no, I will not defend any large or long-running establishment:

Matthew 13:31

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof."

Notice our Lord doesn't say if a good tree, overrun with "birds of the air," can still produce good fruit, gets chopped down, or what. He has never Blessed me in any such environment, that much I know. Typically He uses me to bring about sweeping change in fledgling little communities, and moves me on ...

How do you clasify then these chruches? How can we justify that MOST churches do fall into this? Is there nowhere that fantastic, idealistic community that does not wrong? I think we tend to idealize here. We need to have a perfect community with a perfect church leader for us to be perfect christians? Or the Christians who belong to a lesser perfect Church are not perfect? I am confused to where this is going truly I do not get it.

Care to explain it? Some are having the insight to belong to perfect communities while others do not. That seems to be a bit gnostic IMHO.

 

[razeontherock]

How do you clasify then these chruches? How can we justify that MOST churches do fall into this?

I think the only "classification" is our Lord's words that I posted, from Mt 13. He doesn't seem to be justifying it.

Some are having the insight to belong to perfect communities while others do not. That seems to be a bit gnostic IMHO.

This doesn't even resemble anything I said. Does a great big tree house bird nests? Or does a sapling? Maybe there is wisdom in having smaller congregations?

 

[Philothei]

I think the only "classification" is our Lord's words that I posted, from Mt 13. He doesn't seem to be justifying it.



This doesn't even resemble anything I said. Does a great big tree house bird nests? Or does a sapling? Maybe there is wisdom in having smaller congregations?

Congregation size has to do with what? I still do not understand this. Sorry.