The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[razeontherock]

God IS able to do those things, but there is a problem: the problem of all the people who claim the Spirit taught them this, or taught them that, when they contradict each other.

The FAR bigger problem is people not understanding one another. Just like Scripture, more often than not when we perceive a contradiction, none exists.

 

[ivebeenshown]

How come you didn't capitalize "church" like you do yers?

I have no evidence that whichever organization she gathers with is authorized by God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have no evidence that whichever organization she gathers with is authorized by God.

Ok

Sure is an interesting problem, but not because the Church disagrees on OT Scripture... in fact, the Church agrees with itself. It's just that these other churches that were founded by men without any authorization from God may not agree with the canon.

Really now, regardless of what you're going to say about the Catholic Church, there is no doubt that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Miller, White, and so on started new organizations. The only valid organization is that which was founded by Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Except then we disregard the rest of Scripture.

Therefore, an explanation is needed.
Scripture cannot be broken.
ANY time I've seen Scripture (SEEM TO) contradict
Scripture, there has been an explanation.

I really don't care to dwell on this particular passage when
it can cause us to miss the forest but, take note of every
bit of the passage IN LIGHT of the passages I posted.

And then we have a clearer picture.

Indeed, I see nothing to discredit the truth that God Himself
teaches us and no man is needed. He Himself (the very spirit
of God inside of me) IS able to do all of those things, no?

But as I said earlier, God often, most times even (IMO) works
through men. And this is my new favorite conversation.
God working through His church. (My fav used to be SS )

Not sure if we have rapport but I'm sure we all agree that
Christ is the principal thing

OK, but I don't see the contradiction anyway. We must first hear of God and His gospel, and then we have something to believe in, so He can begin to change us, becoming our God again as He originally was for man. This is a process whereby we grow in the knowledge of God, as per 1 Pet 3-10, for example.

 

[LinuxUser]

Not at all.
Even yer first Pope said this in Acts 5

NKJV) Acts 5: 8 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
29 But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand [to be] Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Since God gave us the Church, obeying and heeding the Church is listening to God not doing such is listening to man. Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth"

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Since God gave us the Church, obeying and heeding the Church is listening to God not doing such is listening to man. Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth"

I never said he didn't

 

[Standing Up]

I have no evidence that whichever organization she gathers with is authorized by God.

Awesome. How do you feel about EO, given that they, like P, have different councils, doctrines, canons, traditions? Is EO authorized by GOD IYO? And just to clarify, is P authorized by GOD IYO?

 

[sunlover1]

Alright, I was just shamelessly pointing out that the Scriptures say to trust in and obey our leaders because they have authority.

And you gotta use your head ...
First know WHO God put in "authority" in YOUR life.
And the ONLY way to know is by the Spirit.
No man will ever tell me that he has been put 'over' me.
God will not leave my future in another man's hands.
Again, trusting in men is not the message of God.. ever.

Who are the leaders in the church you assemble with? Are you certain that they are authorized by God to lead a congregation?

God's the leader in the church I assemble with.

Paul told Timothy and Titus to rebuke and correct. He didn't tell Timothy to just study for his self and that all he could do for the others was pray.

We're all to rebuke and correct.
And he did tell Timothy to study for himself.

How come you didn't capitalize "church" like you do yers?

Had to ask dintcha?

And thus the problem..... The explanation? Which one? Cause there can indeed be many explanations

The one that doesnt break Scripture is the one I go with.

I have no evidence that whichever organization she gathers with is authorized by God.

My church has no scandal or clergy shuffle...
does that disqualify it?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Since God gave us the Church, obeying and heeding the Church is listening to God not doing such is listening to man. Paul writes under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth"

Yep. This sounds about right - until I read the word Catholic inserted before each usage of Church in your post. Or, would you prefer another word such as orthodox or evangelical or united?

 

[LinuxUser]

Catholic works. There are only two lungs of the Church - East and West

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Catholic works. There are only two lungs of the Church - East and West

Have you discussed that with the EOC by any chance?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7490477/
Question on "2 Lungs" of the Church

I believe this phrase originated with Pope John Paul II. Some Orthodox ecumenists may have adopted the phrase. Recently there has been a backing away from this phrase by both. It is a heresy and developing it to its ultimate conclusion may even be a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

 

[LinuxUser]

Not really

 

[fhansen]

Have you discussed that with the EOC by any chance?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7490477/
Question on "2 Lungs" of the Church

This is the western position on the matter; the EO are less certain, depending on the commentator.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is the western position on the matter; the EO are less certain, depending on the commentator.

How many commentators are there on this?

 

[fhansen]

How many commentators are there on this?

Wouldn't have a clue. But it's well known that while some EOs are receptive to the reunification of the Churches-even working towards that goal-others are quite anti-RC.

 

[ivebeenshown]

And you gotta use your head ...
First know WHO God put in "authority" in YOUR life.
And the ONLY way to know is by the Spirit.
No man will ever tell me that he has been put 'over' me.
God will not leave my future in another man's hands.
Again, trusting in men is not the message of God.. ever.

Are you denying what Paul told us to do? He said to have confidence in and submit to the authority of our leaders. To have confidence in someone is to trust in them.

Do you have confidence in and submit to the authority of your leaders who keep watch over you? If not, why not? Scripture tells us to do it, in plain words.

God's the leader in the church I assemble with.

Paul was clearly speaking of human leaders, otherwise he would have not used the plural form of 'leader.' I was also clearly asking about human leaders.

We're all to rebuke and correct.

Paul told Titus to rebuke with all authority. For some reason, I severely doubt that you have any real authority. I know I don't. I can only learn and discuss as a layperson.

And he did tell Timothy to study for himself.

I acknowledged that Paul told Timothy to study for himself, so you must have misinterpreted what I said if you felt the need to say that.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wouldn't have a clue. But it's well known that while some EOs are receptive to the reunification of the Churches-even working towards that goal-others are quite anti-RC.

Yeah....there outta be a law

Why are Protestants so Anti-Catholic? - Page 101 - Christian Forums
Why are so many Protestants anti-Catholic

 

[heymikey80]

And thus the problem..... The explanation? Which one? Cause there can indeed be many explanations

That's okay. I've noticed the explanation coming out of Rome don't always make much sense, either.

God doesn't promise us perfect understanding. But that which is necessary to be known for our spiritual use is quite clearly stated in Scripture.

 

[sunlover1]

Are you denying what Paul told us to do? He said to have confidence in and submit to the authority of our leaders. To have confidence in someone is to trust in them.

We can disagree all day and argue back and forth, would that be fruitful?
Evidently not, which is why I'm not RC.
And you know I did not deny what Scripture says to do.
I elaborated on it. Logic MUST be exercised along with
wisdom, understanding and revelation. OTHERWISE
we might leave our children to the wolves (church
leaders who hurt children and then "their" leaders
protect them rather than the children.. THOSE are
not the men GOD told me to 'submit' to. Gotta hear
the voice of THE shepherd, that's a must)

Do you have confidence in and submit to the authority of your leaders who keep watch over you? If not, why not? Scripture tells us to do it, in plain words.

I will submit to whom God says to submit to.
As I already explained.

Paul told Titus to rebuke with all authority. For some reason, I severely doubt that you have any real authority. I know I don't. I can only learn and discuss as a layperson.

Well I do have authority in the
kingdom of God. I am a priest/prophet/king. You do have authority but you
need to be aware of it/"see" it, in order to know how to operate it.

 

[Philothei]

]We can disagree all day and argue back and forth, would that be fruitful?
Evidently not, which is why I'm not RC.
And you know I did not deny what Scripture says to do.
I elaborated on it. Logic MUST be exercised along with
wisdom, understanding and revelation. OTHERWISE
we might leave our children to the wolves (church
leaders who hurt children and then "their" leaders
protect them rather than the children.. THOSE are
not the men GOD told me to 'submit' to. Gotta hear
the voice of THE shepherd, that's a must)

That does not make too much sense as in your church you have elders... I do not see what the difference is between one "authority" and the RC sense of "authority" someone has to be the sheppard no?
FYI there has been as much child abuse in all churches not ONLY the RC. Actually abuse of power is in ALL church communities for as much as Church is on earth there will be false leaders/teachers.

That does not prove in anyway shape or form the RC been vindicated. Actually that shows partiality in judgment.

I will submit to whom God says to submit to.
As I already explained.

Well I do have authority in the
kingdom of God. I am a priest/prophet/king. You do have authority but you
need to be aware of it/"see" it, in order to know how to operate it.

Authority to God is expressed in many forms... in the Church the first Christians gave authority to the Apostles you give authority to your elder. I give authority to my Bishop and my priest. The point is that there is always a person in authority. If you are a priest then why do you also have an elder? How can you be a 'minister" in that sense and also submit to one?

Paul says that we are NOT all the same some are prophets some are teachers some are called to do healings. He sees us as bearing different gifts. NO where it says that we are not to trust our elders and seek our own guidance. He says we should be watchful but that does not mean that we should doubt our elders and be "on our own". Being part of the "body of Christ" means taking risks with believing in God with believing that the Holy Spirit is guiding the congregation of the faithful. If we lose that trust and faith in what is given to us by the Holy Spirit we must them deny its presence in our life and in our congregation.