The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[razeontherock]

It's the old I am the parent and what I say goes. But there's no standard. It doesn't work for grownups.

Hey, it didn't work for me by the age of 4! "Parents" ought to be responsible enough to hold themselves up to a standard, recognizing they set themselves up as an example. I do have to give the RCC credit for drastic improvement, but their obstinate refusal to acknowledge that in favor of claiming they "haven't changed" pretty much flushes all that, at least for me.

Sorry but IMHO they've earned a vote of no confidence, and lost all respect. (As an organization. Individuals within it can be quite the refreshing contrast, and clearly called to that part of the Body. And I'm glad to say we have a bunch of those here!)

On the topic, Mom earned a great deal of respect from me when I (quite brashly) challenged her in her own classroom. She tried to buffalo her way past my question because I was by far the youngest one there, at age 4 in a room of grade 4 - 6. Upon pressing her she finally took a few minutes to discuss with her teacher's aide and they concluded "they don't know." And God finally gave me that answer 42 years later, this past Summer

I do so wish the RCC could learn to admit when they don't know.

 

[fhansen]

What'd Peter say? The Spirit moved the men. Then it was written. Paul said it was entrusted to them (to preserve). John says it was written so we might believe.

There's nothing there about popes, teaching magesteriums, traditions, councils, etc. My faith is in God and yes, what He said.

But the question is what's the standard? Let's say, I present a doctrine, for example, Mary was assumed bodily into heaven and make your salvation dependent on believing that. By what standard will we test that?

John has already told us that what is necessary for salvation is already written in the bible.

So, what's the standard? When your daughter says, why do you base your salvation on something apart from the bible, what do you say?

But your reasoning is still circular. How do you show that the bible is the standard? It's still up to you, subjectively, to make that determination. It's absolutely no different from me saying that the Spirit has moved me to believe in the "inspiration" of the CC.

It's about authority. We can say we believe the bible to be a standard but, in real life, people still disagree significantly on what it's telling them the standard is. If there's a living authority, as there was when Jesus walked, then there's a place to go where the buck is said to stop. We, which often includes "Catholics", may not like it but since when has human nature liked being told anything-people obviously dismissed His authority even while He walked the earth.

The CC, when teaching the faith, uses both Tradition, which usually means quoting ECFs, councils, and later writers/documents and early Church historical practices, as well as Scripture. These things serve to support the gospel that was written in her heart before the NT was even written.

 

[sunlover1]

It's about authority.

5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[fhansen]

5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So what is this supposed to be-an exercise in self-analysis?

 

[sunlover1]

So what is this supposed to be-an exercise in self-analysis?

Take what you will from it.

For me it was an amazing revelation from God.
Life changing, if you will.
But certainly only God can give revelation.

 

[ivebeenshown]

She's trying to imply that we trust in man and that our hearts have departed from the Lord. That's the only logical conclusion I can make from that post.

 

[fhansen]

Take what you will from it.

For me it was an amazing revelation from God.
Life changing, if you will.
But certainly only God can give revelation.

What we come to know as the gospel truth is revelation from God-to us personally. But it all comes through man first of all-because we’re all lost in darkness-cut off from the God who created and loves our soul and who covets restored direct relationship with man –the God who wishes to reveal Himself to us. So, wherever we hear the Word, through the church, through our pastors, through other individuals, through the writers of scripture, all this revelation comes from God through man to us, because that's how He's determined it should be done, sparking the beginning of this direct relationship. This is how God intends to fulfill the New Covenant prophesy in Jer 31:

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.

 

[Standing Up]

But your reasoning is still circular. How do you show that the bible is the standard?

It's what we agree to. IOW, RC standard of truth is "it says so". EO standard of truth is "some combination of Tradition, Scripture, and Council". P standard is "scripture". LDS standard is "scripture plus some other books".

The point is, if the Christians want to agree with each other, we have to agree on a rule, a standard. Is the standard Tradition, Scripture, Pope, Council, or what? Without that plumbline, we will continue to disagree. For example, the assumption of Mary for some is a salvific doctrine, yet it's not found in the bible. What do we do with that?

It's still up to you, subjectively, to make that determination. It's absolutely no different from me saying that the Spirit has moved me to believe in the "inspiration" of the CC.

It's about authority. We can say we believe the bible to be a standard but, in real life, people still disagree significantly on what it's telling them the standard is. If there's a living authority, as there was when Jesus walked, then there's a place to go where the buck is said to stop. We, which often includes "Catholics", may not like it but since when has human nature liked being told anything-people obviously dismissed His authority even while He walked the earth.

The CC, when teaching the faith, uses both Tradition, which usually means quoting ECFs, councils, and later writers/documents and early Church historical practices, as well as Scripture. These things serve to support the gospel that was written in her heart before the NT was even written.

Yes there is all of that, and perhaps you can see how that authority may have gone far beyond the "it is written" standard that many use.

 

[Standing Up]

Hey, it didn't work for me by the age of 4! "Parents" ought to be responsible enough to hold themselves up to a standard, recognizing they set themselves up as an example. I do have to give the RCC credit for drastic improvement, but their obstinate refusal to acknowledge that in favor of claiming they "haven't changed" pretty much flushes all that, at least for me.

Sorry but IMHO they've earned a vote of no confidence, and lost all respect. (As an organization. Individuals within it can be quite the refreshing contrast, and clearly called to that part of the Body. And I'm glad to say we have a bunch of those here!)

On the topic, Mom earned a great deal of respect from me when I (quite brashly) challenged her in her own classroom. She tried to buffalo her way past my question because I was by far the youngest one there, at age 4 in a room of grade 4 - 6. Upon pressing her she finally took a few minutes to discuss with her teacher's aide and they concluded "they don't know." And God finally gave me that answer 42 years later, this past Summer

I do so wish the RCC could learn to admit when they don't know.

God is great. He is amazing and gracious towards us when things come together and He grants us the ability to see it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

She's trying to imply that we trust in man and that our hearts have departed from the Lord. That's the only logical conclusion I can make from that post.

Not at all.
Even yer first Pope said this in Acts 5

NKJV) Acts 5: 8 saying, "Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man's blood on us!"
29 But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.
31 "Him God has exalted to His right hand [to be] Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

 

[fhansen]

Yes there is all of that, and perhaps you can see how that authority may have gone far beyond the "it is written" standard that many use.

Yes, I understand the concept and the reasoning behind it because I used to believe that as well. The bottom line is that we all have our take on what the gospel means-sometimes we're very close to each other, other times not so close. But whether I'm interpreting scripture, or the CC or a pastor or a particular denominational tradition interprets it and I agree with the interpretation, it's nonetheless about someone saying that such and such is the truth because 'they say so'. And we all agree on one thing: the HS gives us the understanding.

 

[sunlover1]

She's trying to imply that we trust in man and that our hearts have departed from the Lord. That's the only logical conclusion I can make from that post.

All authority belongs to God alone.
I was (not implying) posting Scripture that says that ANY man
(so nothing to do with you, dear heart) who puts his trust in
man, misses out on things ... is blind/obvlivious to certain
blessings and info.. As I said to fhansen, it's by revelation,
so you need to go to God for that understanding. Otherwise
you come up with such faulty conclusions as above.

What we come to know as the gospel truth is revelation from God-to us personally.

Amen. No man can come to the Father but by Christ.
No man comes to Christ, but by the Father.

But it all comes through man first of all-because ...

Often (not always) God uses men to reach His people.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to
you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other.

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the
Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'
Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Jeremiah 31:34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his
brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the
least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD.

So, wherever we hear the Word, through the church, through our pastors, through other individuals, through the writers of scripture, all this revelation comes from God through man to us, because that's how He's determined it should be done, sparking the beginning of this direct relationship. This is how God intends to fulfill the New Covenant prophesy in Jer 31:

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the LORD.

Not sure how you arrived to the opposite conclusion,
perhaps we're talking past each other.

Either way,
The anointing that i received from him abides in me, and I have no need
that anyone should teach me. But as his anointing teaches me about
everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught me, I abide in
him.

According to 1 John

My message is this.
Trust God, not man.
B blessed

 

[fhansen]

Not sure how you arrived to the opposite conclusion,
perhaps we're talking past each other.

We probably are-here at least.

This:
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Rom 10:14-15

Should lead to this:
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

 

[sunlover1]

We probably are-here at least.

This:
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" Rom 10:14-15

Should lead to this:
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

Except then we disregard the rest of Scripture.

Therefore, an explanation is needed.
Scripture cannot be broken.
ANY time I've seen Scripture (SEEM TO) contradict
Scripture, there has been an explanation.

I really don't care to dwell on this particular passage when
it can cause us to miss the forest but, take note of every
bit of the passage IN LIGHT of the passages I posted.

And then we have a clearer picture.

Indeed, I see nothing to discredit the truth that God Himself
teaches us and no man is needed. He Himself (the very spirit
of God inside of me) IS able to do all of those things, no?

But as I said earlier, God often, most times even (IMO) works
through men. And this is my new favorite conversation.
God working through His church. (My fav used to be SS )

Not sure if we have rapport but I'm sure we all agree that
Christ is the principal thing

 

[ivebeenshown]

All authority belongs to God alone.

Incorrect. God gave authority to the Apostles:

2 Corinthians 10
8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

We are to have confidence in and submit to the authority of our leaders:

Hebrews 13
17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Indeed, I see nothing to discredit the truth that God Himself
teaches us and no man is needed. He Himself (the very spirit
of God inside of me) IS able to do all of those things, no?

God IS able to do those things, but there is a problem: the problem of all the people who claim the Spirit taught them this, or taught them that, when they contradict each other.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Incorrect. God gave authority to the Apostles:

2 Corinthians 10
8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

We are to have confidence in and submit to the authority of our leaders:

Hebrews 13
17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Can't argue wit dat!
Just as our Lord Jesus was given complete authority in heaven and on earth

Young) Matthew 28:18 And having come near, Jesus spake to them saying "given to Me was all authority in heaven and on earth"
19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full end of the age.'

 

[sunlover1]

Incorrect. God gave authority to the Apostles:

2 Corinthians 10
8So even if I boast somewhat freely about the authority the Lord gave us for building you up rather than tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

We are to have confidence in and submit to the authority of our leaders:

Hebrews 13
17Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

Yes, and I have "authority" over my children.
Again, ALL of the authority is God's

God IS able to do those things, but there is a problem: the problem of all the people who claim the Spirit taught them this, or taught them that, when they contradict each other.

Yes, JW's, RC's, PR's, and on and on it goes.
They all have different understandings of Scripture.
God told me to study and show ME approved.
All I can do for the others is pray for them and bless
them as GOD leads me to.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Yes, and I have "authority" over my children.
Again, ALL of the authority is God's

Alright, I was just shamelessly pointing out that the Scriptures say to trust in and obey our leaders because they have authority.

Who are the leaders in the church you assemble with? Are you certain that they are authorized by God to lead a congregation?

Yes, JW's, RC's, PR's, and on and on it goes.
They all have different understandings of Scripture.
God told me to study and show ME approved.
All I can do for the others is pray for them and bless
them as GOD leads me to.

Paul told Timothy and Titus to rebuke and correct. He didn't tell Timothy to just study for his self and that all he could do for the others was pray.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Alright, I was just shamelessly pointing out that the Scriptures say to trust in and obey our leaders because they have authority.

Who are the leaders in the church you assemble with? Are you certain that they are authorized by God to lead a congregation?

Paul told Timothy and Titus to rebuke and correct. He didn't tell Timothy to just study for his self and that all he could do for the others was pray.

How come you didn't capitalize "church" like you do yers?

 

[Philothei]

ANY time I've seen Scripture (SEEM TO) contradict
Scripture, there has been an explanation.

And thus the problem..... The explanation? Which one? Cause there can indeed be many explanations