The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[WarriorAngel]

No, not at all Paul was called the apostle of the Gentiles and Peter went primarily to the Jews read Galatians 2

Jesus made a firm statement and a promise that the gates of hell would not prevail.

Humans 1500 years later called that fiction by stating the principal leader could in fact, by their say so, fail.

I stand behind Jesus. There is no argument except with Jesus. I cannot argue with the Lord despite human failings.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The Catholic Church decided to build churches, there was a hesitation of ten to twenty years before for the building of most churches, thought was put into the structure, and it was decided Catholic churches should be ornate on the inside as a proper house for God.

No, absolutely wrong here. The church is not built by men or a religious group. The church is built by Christ and the church is not a man made building the church is the body of Christ made of of every believer. The word church is in Greek the “called out assembly”.

And the most high dwellers not in temples made with hands.

You should consider these verses.

Ephesians 1: 22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

People are the church not the house or man made building.

1 Corinthians 16: 19. The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

Colossians 4: 15. Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house.”

Acts 7: 48. Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49. Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? 50. Hath not my hand made all these things? 51. Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.”

And every part of that body can function and minister and use all gifts as Christ works in them. Never do we see a one man pastor or priest over the church. Christ is the head of the church. We instead see body ministry in Christ to one another with plural elders who watch over not lord over others. Elders (plural) in every church (singular) .

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.”

1 Corinthians 12: 7. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.”

1 Corinthians 14: 26,29,30-33,37,38 KJV “How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying…29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. ..33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints…37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. “

And a verse you should consider.

2 Timothy 2: 15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus made a firm statement and a promise that the gates of hell would not prevail.

Humans 1500 years later called that fiction by stating the principal leader could in fact, by their say so, fail.

I stand behind Jesus. There is no argument except with Jesus. I cannot argue with the Lord despite human failings.

Prevailing against the church does not mean that many believers cannot go astray or different groups can create thier own religious forms in error. God’s people are always there.

The way believers get victory and where the devil does not prevail are more along this line of thought.

1 John 5: 18. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

 

[LoveofTruth]

Jesus made a firm statement and a promise that the gates of hell would not prevail.

Humans 1500 years later called that fiction by stating the principal leader could in fact, by their say so, fail.

I stand behind Jesus. There is no argument except with Jesus. I cannot argue with the Lord despite human failings.

When I speak of the “church”. I am not referring to a man made religious organization with a man made building created by the organization with a name attached to it and unbiblically calling a. building of man “the church”. No, I refer to the church as Jesus and Paul and Peter and others in scripture do, as the body of Christ.

Jesus said he would build his church and he does so from within every believer. Christ dwells in the heart by faith.

As many scriptures can be shown for this as well.

 

[WarriorAngel]

When I speak of the “church”. I am not referring to a man made religious organization with a man made building created by the organization with a name attached to it and unbiblically calling a. building of man “the church”. No, I refer to the church as Jesus and Paul and Peter and others in scripture do, as the body of Christ.

Jesus said he would build his church and he does so from within every believer. Christ dwells in the heart by faith.

As many scriptures can be shown for this as well.

That concept is manmade.
The Almighty Created religion [Judaism]

He continued religion by being KING He handed the KEYS [which in Jewish culture means authority - Kingship] and gave them to SIMON WHOM HE NAMED ROCK.
[Petros is masculine for rock]

It takes a 'religion' of truth to carry on truth.

At no time did we receive truth by chance....
Just as we did not receive life by chance.

The Almighty does nothing by incidental or chance. His entire life, death and resurrection was prophesied.

Lastly, the same 'religion' you wish to debunk - kept the writings, wrote to one another within the teaching of truth and the one with the keys [on the chair] decided the scriptures TO BE BELIEVED.

 

[Valletta]

No, absolutely wrong here. The church is not built by men or a religious group.

You are mistaken. WarriorAngel was spot on. Catholics have emphasized the words of Jesus: "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Jesus often chose to work through men, understand that God did not need the Apostles to accomplish His will, but He chose to use them. If Jesus did not want to use Simon Jesus could simply have said: " I am Jesus and upon this Rock I will build my Church." Instead at that moment he renamed Simon as Rock, as He had foretold, and gave Rock the keys to the kingdom. Understand the Catholic Church is both in Heaven and on Earth. I often first think of the Church in Heaven when the Catholic Church is mentioned.

 

[jas3]

The word church is in Greek the “called out assembly”.

This is an etymological fallacy. The ekklesia Jesus talked about could act as a cohesive organization, such as when our Lord instructed that if a brother sins against us, we are supposed to confront him privately, then with one or two witnesses, then "take it to the church," and when Paul excommunicates people later on.

Prevailing against the church does not mean that many believers cannot go astray or different groups can create thier own religious forms in error.

You are right, but it does mean that all believers can't go astray. The true faith can't be lost and rediscovered like the restorationists suggest. Matt. 16:18 is cited as a guarantee of the "indefectibility of the Church" in all kinds of Protestant statements of faith.

Jesus said he would build his church and he does so from within every believer. Christ dwells in the heart by faith.

As many scriptures can be shown for this as well.

Please do.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You are mistaken. WarriorAngel was spot on. Catholics have emphasized the words of Jesus: "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Jesus often chose to work through men, understand that God did not need the Apostles to accomplish His will, but He chose to use them. If Jesus did not want to use Simon Jesus could simply have said: " I am Jesus and upon this Rock I will build my Church." Instead at that moment he renamed Simon as Rock, as He had foretold, and gave Rock the keys to the kingdom. Understand the Catholic Church is both in Heaven and on Earth. I often first think of the Church in Heaven when the Catholic Church is mentioned.

Peter’s revelation of Jesus is the answer to Jesus question. Who do you say that I am, Jesus is the foundation stone the chief corner stone and the Rock. God is our ROCK

I show verses that show all believers are living stones built up a spiritual house, the church. And we are all parts of the body of Christ the church. Also Peter means a small stone or a part of the larger rock . I also show that Paul warned of men drawing away disciples after themselves. And also, Paul had to withstand Peter at a time he was to be blamed. Paul said said whoever they are it makes no difference to him for God respects no man’s person. Also I show how Jesus directly works in every part to edify the body , edify means to build as a house builder. All believers are part of this as God works in them directly through Christ. Without Jesus we can do nothing. Peter also said he was an Elder as others and not to have men over others as lords. Peter’s revelation of who Jesus was was from the Father revealing it to him as all believers must haves before they come to Christ. Peter and the other 11 once belonged to the Father even before they met Jesus in person abd the Fsther gave them to Jesus.

Consider,
1 Peter 2: 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 10: 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;”

Psalm 94: 22. But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.”

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. “

Acts 20: 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Galatians 2: 6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:..11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed... 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

1 Peter 5: 1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

All prophets and apostles and all believers are part of the house of God built up. Even all prophets and apostles.

Ephesians 2: 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

Jesus Christ is the rock, the foundation to build upon no other foundation.

1 Corinthians 3: 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;”

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is an etymological fallacy. The ekklesia Jesus talked about could act as a cohesive organization

More as an organism, not organization of man’s making with Al sorts of worldly rudiments and traditions of man.

Also the body works under Christ the head from where all life and direction flow. Christ as the head of the church works effectually in every part of the body for edifying and all things,(Ephesians 4:15,26, Hebrews 13:20,21)

, such as when our Lord instructed that if a brother sins against us, we are supposed to confront him privately, then with one or two witnesses, then "take it to the church," and when Paul excommunicates people later on.

Bringing matters to the “church” mean to bring it to the called out assembly the body of christ where all can minister to one another as led (1 Cor.14:26-37). And yes I am aware of Matthew 18 where a grievance is brought before the church )the called out assembly). But in 1 Cor 14 we see the other judging and when all speak the secrets of men are judged as well in the spirit. So among the body there is the entire body ministering and dealing with issues, not just a one man pastor or priest over all. But, any believer and in the case with Paul as an apostle could hand someone over to Satan and pray with the body that this be done also.

You are right, but it does mean that all believers can't go astray.

I never said all believers would go astray but many groups can have false doctrine among them. Even among the true saints at times there is false doctrine. In the later time sone shall depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Many also go away from the rule of Christ in living in the new creation and are drawn after men and religious forms etc

But the gates of hell will not prevail against the church or the believers who have Christ in them. The devil can try to destroy the outward but if believers live in Christ nothing shall separate us from the love of God. The devil will not prevail if we abide in faith.

The true faith can't be lost and rediscovered like the restorationists suggest.

Believers can lose faith and be lost in danger if they abide not in Christ. This would speak of individuals or if a group follows falsehood and also is drawn away. Many shall depart from the faith as scripture warns.

Matt. 16:18 is cited as a guarantee of the "indefectibility of the Church" in all kinds of Protestant statements of faith.

Please do not compare me to any other group I may or may not hold what they talk of

 

[LoveofTruth]

This is an etymological fallacy. The ekklesia Jesus talked about could act as a cohesive organization, such as when our Lord instructed that if a brother sins against us, we are supposed to confront him privately, then with one or two witnesses, then "take it to the church," and when Paul excommunicates people later on.

You are right, but it does mean that all believers can't go astray. The true faith can't be lost and rediscovered like the restorationists suggest. Matt. 16:18 is cited as a guarantee of the "indefectibility of the Church" in all kinds of Protestant statements of faith.

Please do.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are mistaken. WarriorAngel was spot on. Catholics have emphasized the words of Jesus: "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH." Jesus often chose to work through men, understand that God did not need the Apostles to accomplish His will, but He chose to use them. If Jesus did not want to use Simon Jesus could simply have said: " I am Jesus and upon this Rock I will build my Church." Instead at that moment he renamed Simon as Rock, as He had foretold, and gave Rock the keys to the kingdom. Understand the Catholic Church is both in Heaven and on Earth. I often first think of the Church in Heaven when the Catholic Church is mentioned.

The problem is of course that you interpret them in a manner that contradicts Canons 6 and 7 of the Council of Nicaea, which expressly state that the Churches of Antioch and Alexandria and the newly rebuilt city of Jerusalem have the same privileges as the Church of Rome.

Only once in antiquity did a Roman bishop ever try to exercise unilateral authority over an Eastern church, when Archbishop St. Victor of Rome (the style of Papem was not in use by the Roman bishops until the 6th century, having first been used with regards to the bishop of Alexandria in the third century), attempted to unilaterally impose the Paschalion in churches in Asia Minor, but then St. Irenaeus of Lyons wrote him a letter pointing out that he could not actually do that.

Now, admittedly, what St. Victor was trying to do was a good thing, much like his translation of the Bible and the liturgy to Latin, the vernacular language of the Western Empire, which opened up the Western church to the lower classes, and was contemporaneous with the first efforts to translate the Gospel into Syriac by Tatian, with his disastrous Gospel harmony the “Diatessaron”, so in this regard St. Victor obviously did a better job. And the Paschalion St. Victor wanted to impose was correct. However, actually imposing it would require an ecumenical council, and the next one (if we count the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 as the proto-council, which I think is reasonable) would be the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

The Orthodox have successfully preserved the ancient tradition without the problems of liturgical revisionism that have caused such a crises in the Roman church since 1969. I think the Novus Ordo Missae, and the liturgical abuses surrounding it, for instance, the failure of Roman churches to adhere to the instructions on church music given by Pope St. Pius X, represents, along with the concept of Papal Infallibility, the largest obstacles to full reunion between the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

Because the reality is that the Bishop of Rome is an important bishop, who, if he were in communion with the Orthodox, would have the status of primus inter pares. And I think problems such as Fiducia Supplicans could well be averted, since the beauty of the Orthodox communion is the equality of bishops, which allows for any bishop who deviates from the correct course of action to be canonically isolated, which also happens to correspond nicely with the precedent established in the US by the Supreme Court in awarding the churches of the Diocese of Fort Worth in Texas to the traditional Anglican bishop and not the Episcopal Church, so even if the majority of the church were to make a move in a direction one might regard as schismatic according to the definition of schism of St. Cyprian of Carthage (who requires doctrinal orthodoxy as a precondition of apostolic succession, in contrast to St. Augustine of Hippo), individual dioceses can still be protected.

 

[jas3]

Bringing matters to the “church” mean to bring it to the called out assembly the body of christ where all can minister to one another as led (2 Cor.14:26-37)

I assume you meant to cite 1 Cor. here, not 2 Cor. That passage says nothing about bringing the case of a grievance against a brother to the church, it's an instruction to be orderly in church gatherings (an instruction usually ignored by those who interpret this passage to mean that all believers have the gift of tongues or the gift of prophecy). And if the Church is only the body of all believers, with no organization, how could Paul excommunicate people?

I never said all believers would go astray but many groups can have false doctrine among them.

But the Church universally taught things you probably disagree with (that it has an organizational structure, for one thing). When the bishops at Nicaea wrote "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church," they didn't mean "one body of believers who agree on the essentials."

 

[WarriorAngel]

Peter’s revelation of Jesus is the answer to Jesus question. Who do you say that I am, Jesus is the foundation stone the chief corner stone and the Rock. God is our ROCK

I show verses that show all believers are living stones built up a spiritual house, the church. And we are all parts of the body of Christ the church. Also Peter means a small stone or a part of the larger rock . I also show that Paul warned of men drawing away disciples after themselves. And also, Paul had to withstand Peter at a time he was to be blamed. Paul said said whoever they are it makes no difference to him for God respects no man’s person. Also I show how Jesus directly works in every part to edify the body , edify means to build as a house builder. All believers are part of this as God works in them directly through Christ. Without Jesus we can do nothing. Peter also said he was an Elder as others and not to have men over others as lords. Peter’s revelation of who Jesus was was from the Father revealing it to him as all believers must haves before they come to Christ. Peter and the other 11 once belonged to the Father even before they met Jesus in person abd the Fsther gave them to Jesus.

Consider,
1 Peter 2: 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 10: 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;”

Psalm 94: 22. But the LORD is my defence; and my God is the rock of my refuge.”

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. “

Acts 20: 30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

Galatians 2: 6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:..11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed... 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

1 Peter 5: 1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”

Hebrews 13: 20. Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21. Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

All prophets and apostles and all believers are part of the house of God built up. Even all prophets and apostles.

Ephesians 2: 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

John 17: 6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

Jesus Christ is the rock, the foundation to build upon no other foundation.

1 Corinthians 3: 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;”

The original teachers taught those after them and every 'church father' stated the same things.

Secondly Jesus was asking to SHOW THEM ALL WHOM was choosing Simon - it was the Father.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I assume you meant to cite 1 Cor. here, not 2 Cor. That passage says nothing about bringing the case of a grievance against a brother to the church, it's an instruction to be orderly in church gatherings

And yes I am aware of Matthew 18 where a grievance is brought before the church )the called out assembly). But in 1 Cor 14 we see the other judging and when all speak the secrets of men are judged as well in the spirit. So among the body there is the entire body ministering and dealing with issues, not just a one man pastor or priest over all. But, any believer and in the case with Paul as an apostle could hand someone over to Satan and pray with the body that this be done also.

instruction usually ignored by those who interpret this passage to mean that all believers have the gift of tongues or the gift of prophecy).

the section in 1 Cor 14 follows the manifestation of the Spirit given to every man in the body and all the gifts are free to use in any gathering 1 Cor 12, not just tongues and prophecy.

Also in 1 Cor 14, it is not just allowing tongues and prophecy to be used freely at any gathering, but also a psalm a doctrine a revelation etc. Basically any gift another has from God. But with many assemblies today we see a problem here. Some will allow tongues and what they understand as "prophecy" to happen from time to time in their planned mans order gatherings (unbiblically out of God's order). and others don't believe in the gifts today so they hinder all such free ministry and some have priest who do rituals and sacraments and don't allow a free body ministry to happen any time they gather. This again has to do with following the rule of God working in every believer and Peter himself speaks of this rule and order in gatherings when he said,

“As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” (1 Peter 4:10 KJV)

to not allow this or do this is to not be a good steward of the manifold grace of God. It is to hinder God working in the body and the gifts you were given. But how many one man shows or Lording over all men stop this. Or the false doctrine that quenches the spirit in others and the gifts have been adopted by so many,sadly.


But read 1 Cor 14:37,38 for the warning.

And if the Church is only the body of all believers, with no organization, how could Paul excommunicate people?

The church is the living body an organism, not a man made organization. Christ is the head of the church and he works effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love Read Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV.

The only organization we could attribute to the body is thongs like when do they agree to meet and where and what time etc Things like that. But when they gather in the power of the Lord and have fellowship in the mystery of Christ and the gifts are working among them from God, God directs them and leads in all things. Jesus Christ is in the midst of them participating with them.

Paul had the ability, as all do to hand others over to satan and the whole body had this as well. I have personally done this and prayed with the body for this to happen and as far as we could see this did happen. The story is a bit longer one if your interested.

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Cor. 5:4,5 KJV)

also Jesus said that the whole church is to make decisions (concensus) not just one man.

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” (Matthew 18:17 KJV)

But the Church universally taught things you probably disagree with (that it has an organizational structure, for one thing).

I speak according to that which is written and scripture is clear on these things.

“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” (1 Cor. 4:6 KJV)

The only organization would be to find a time to gather together and where to do so etc. But once they are gathered in the name of the Lord and with the power of the lord among them, God directs their hearts into the patient waiting on Christ and to let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and then they will have teaching one to another and psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and edify each other as God leads. Yes, elder will do much of the teaching, but all gifts can happen. I have seen this God given order for many years in home gatherings unto Christ.

When the bishops at Nicaea wrote "one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church," they didn't mean "one body of believers who agree on the essentials."

Many within the so called "Roman Catholic church" have disagreed with each other for centuries. It is not just one man or a few bishops, who say what the church is and what they agree to. Also most of the Protestants were Roman catholic priest.

again you refer to way later than the written scriptures, again I refer you to verses like these

“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”

 

[WarriorAngel]

And yes I am aware of Matthew 18 where a grievance is brought before the church )the called out assembly). But in 1 Cor 14 we see the other judging and when all speak the secrets of men are judged as well in the spirit. So among the body there is the entire body ministering and dealing with issues, not just a one man pastor or priest over all. But, any believer and in the case with Paul as an apostle could hand someone over to Satan and pray with the body that this be done also.

the section in 1 Cor 14 follows the manifestation of the Spirit given to every man in the body and all the gifts are free to use in any gathering 1 Cor 12, not just tongues and prophecy.

Also in 1 Cor 14, it is not just allowing tongues and prophecy to be used freely at any gathering, but also a psalm a doctrine a revelation etc. Basically any gift another has from God. But with many assemblies today we see a problem here. Some will allow tongues and what they understand as "prophecy" to happen from time to time in their planned mans order gatherings (unbiblically out of God's order). and others don't believe in the gifts today so they hinder all such free ministry and some have priest who do rituals and sacraments and don't allow a free body ministry to happen any time they gather. This again has to do with following the rule of God working in every believer and Peter himself speaks of this rule and order in gatherings when he said,

“As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.” (1 Peter 4:10 KJV)

to not allow this or do this is to not be a good steward of the manifold grace of God. It is to hinder zGod working in the body and the gifts you were given. But how many one man shows or Lording over all men stop this. Or the false doctrine that quenches the spirit in others and the gifts have been adopted by so many,sadly.


But read 1 Cor 14:37,38 for the warning.

The church is the living body an organism, not a man made organization. Christ is the head of the church and he works effectually in the measure of every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love Read Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV.

The only organization we could attribute to the body is thongs like when do they agree to meet and where and what time etc Things like that. But when they gather in the power of the Lord and have fellowship in the mystery of Christ and the gifts are working among them from God, God directs them and leads in all things. Jesus Christ is in the midst of them participating with them.

Paul had the ability, as all do to hand others over to satan and the whole body had this as well. I have personally done this and prayed with the body for this to happen and as far as we could see this did happen. The story is a bit longer one if your interested.

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Cor. 5:4,5 KJV)

also Jesus said that the whole church is to make decisions (concensus) not just one man.

“And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.” (Matthew 18:17 KJV)



I speak according to that which is written and scripture is clear on these things.

“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.” (1 Cor. 4:6 KJV)

The only organization would be to find a time to gather together and where to do so etc. But once they are gathered in the name of the Lord and with the power of the lord among them, God directs their hearts into the patient waiting on Christ and to let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and then they will have teaching one to another and psalms and hymns and spiritual songs and edify each other as God leads. Yes, elder will do much of the teaching, but all gifts can happen. I have seen this God given order for many years in home gatherings unto Christ.

Many within the so called "Roman Catholic church" have disagreed with each other for centuries. It is not just one man or a few bishops, who say what the church is and what they agree to. Also most of the Protestants were Roman catholic priest.

again you refer to way later than the written scriptures, again I refer you to verses like these

“And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.”

Are you aware it was to the Bishops of the Churches that we go before?

 

[WarriorAngel]

A practical guide to understanding the Epistles [as St Peter warned not to wrest them nor the old Testament alone]

All letters sent out were sent directly to the ordained Bishops of the Churches.
Even the priests were under the jurisdiction of the taught to understand and a response to their beseeching.
Not Joe, Frank and John lay member and not even the priests alone.

 

[The Liturgist]

A practical guide to understanding the Epistles [as St Peter warned not to wrest them nor the old Testament alone]

Indeed, “no prophecy is of any private interpretation.”

Also St. Paul specifically commended tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and in 1 Corinthians 11:2

Ergo I can accept only the forms of Sola Scriptura taught by Lutherans, Anglicans and traditional Methodists and other liturgical Protestants which account for sacred tradition, as opposed to the extreme view associated with Fundamentalism and Restorationist and some evangelical churches.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Indeed, “no prophecy is of any private interpretation.”

Also St. Paul specifically commended tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and in 1 Corinthians 11:2

Ergo I can accept only the forms of Sola Scriptura taught by Lutherans, Anglicans and traditional Methodists and other liturgical Protestants which account for sacred tradition, as opposed to the extreme view associated with Fundamentalism and Restorationist and some evangelical churches.

Over time they also moved further away from their core teachings.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Over time they also moved further away from their core teachings.

Zwigli, Calvin, Luther all believed in the literal transformation of bread to Body.

Long lost.

Our Lady was revered.

Long lost

 

[The Liturgist]

Zwigli, Calvin, Luther all believed in the literal transformation of bread to Body.

Long lost.

Our Lady was revered.

Long lost

No, only Martin Luther venerated Our Lady and taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and confessional Lutherans like our friend @MarkRohfrietsch still believe and teach that doctrine, which is why they are often called Evangelical Catholics.

Also those high church Anglicans known as Anglo Catholics embrace these doctrines.