The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[LoveofTruth]

With due respect, you did not address my questions. All I see here is you posting scripture passages and giving your personal interpretations of them. What if I or somebody else disagreed with your interpretation, to what authority would you turn to determine who is correct and who is in error. So, I will repost my questions in the hope you will address them.

"1.To what authority do "you" turn, to determine who is a "fake teacher" and who is not?

2. Let's say someone disagrees with your interpretation of scripture, and you both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in your interpretations of scripture, where would you turn to determine who's interpretation is correct and who's is in error?"


Have a Blessed Day!

I did answer you just didn’t consider it I think.

All true believers in Christ have God working directly in them to make them perfect unto all good works and God guides them according to the depth of thier faith. So the authority in in Christ as we walk with God in us. Now, all may say this and yet disagree on teachings etc , so we would ask what do the Christian’s do who gather together and there are disagreements. Well, we are told to judge all things on spirit and to pray for God to help us if we lack anything. God also has given scripture from the Spirit that will not contradict his witness and teaching in our spiritual walk. If we continue in Jesus word he said we would know the truth.

We do not need to set up a single man or men who are over us in authority to decide if what we hear from God is right or not. But when we speak it or live that truth we are all subject to one another in Christ and all is to be judged righteously and by the word of other brothers and by the holy scriptures.

We read a strong verses which speaks agains a one man lord on authority over us, here;

1 John 2: 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

Would you argue with John here and ask him, “wait, John, what about the authority we can go to instead of the anointing teaching us all things? Don’t we need such men to teach us in that outward authority over us?”

John would say exactly what he just said in 2 John 2:26,27

Also Jesus said very clear words against the man over us in authority,

Matthew 20: 25. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:”


When the church had disagreements they came together and hopefully led by God would share what he gave them. This may even be involved in great dispute. But this kind of concensus is needful that we all speak the same things and have the same mind and judgement .but sadly the wrong authorities as lords over the flock do not allow the body to discuss these things even though God commands it in 2 Cor 14:26-38 and other places.

You can read about this kind of consensus discussion with disagreements in Acts 15

And even if you don’t like me giving scripture for what I say I will continue to do so for scripture is profitable for doctrine reproof correction and instruction in righteousness.

 

[LoveofTruth]

You said all Christians have the keys.
You said teachers need not continue.

You said I/we all have the keys.
The argument ceases.

Re read the verses I gave. The whole church is to make decisions in judgement to bind and lose. And all true Christian have Jesus Christ in them. God works in everyone to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work.

 

[LoveofTruth]

There is nothing in these verses that even have a similar connotation.

Isaiah said THE STEWARD gets the keys to open and shut doors.

It's tremendously in err to believe the Lord would make all authority over HIS CHURCH.
You Simon are ROCK.
You get the keys to open and shut the DOORS to Heaven.
IE - what you teach will be as Heaven accepts.

THIS is not so for lay people.
You cannot cherry pick scriptures or Epistles and choose what they mean because St Peter who was OPENING and shutting a door in Heaven said you 'interpret' [wrest] them to your own damnation.
The one and only who had the keys.
[/QUOTE]
Every verse I showed corrected your teaching. The verse about the whole church binding and losing is clear. Peter going to the circumcision (Jews) and Paul to the Gentiles (uncircumcised) is clear and contrary to your teaching.

And 1 John 2:26,27 corrects you as well and is specifically written against those who were troubling the church and pressing man’s authority over the saints in spiritual matters.

And Jesus is working directly in all true believers.we read that the Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth. Abd God works in us to make us perfect unto every good work.

Paul, (not Peter) said that he preached the gospel to people who believed and were saved, 1 Corinthians 25:1-5 KJV) This did not say that they needed to go to sorter to get th keys to go to Heaven.

Your teaching is confounding and many scriptures correct you. And yes, we can use scripture for correction and reproof and doctrine abd instruction.

Consider what Paul (not Peter) said;

Galatians 2: . 6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person : ) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles : ) 9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. 1. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed”

And notice how Paul speaks to believers who he had used the keys of Heaven to help

Galatians 4: 19. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,”

And notice what Paul (not Peter here) said

1 Corinthians 4: 15. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.”

Did he say follow Peter as sone Pipe character? No. Did he say you need Peter to give you the keys of Heaven? No.

 

[LoveofTruth]

THIS is not so for lay people.

[/QUOTE]
there is no such thing as “lay people”and “clergy” division in the New Testament. This false “clergy laity division” is a man made tradition that makes the word of God of no effect.m

The order of God is, that every part of the body is free to edify one another as Christ works in them and eventually elders will be matured among them and recognized in every church. As Gidctaises them up. Elders (plural) in every church (singular). These plural male elders are not lords over all or in control of all as many are today. They help others and watch over them in care as examples and they are skillful in the word of righteousness which babes in Christvare not. But all believers can grow in this and be better able to edify one another in Christ .

This order is soo different than many religious groups today including the Roman Catholics and Others. But we see this order commanded in scripture, consider these verses;

Acts 14: 23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.”

Not one man pastor gift over all or a Pope over all. But plural elders.

Also, all can participate in every gathering. The assembly is not a “ritual “ or “service” or “form”. But a living body in Christ where God works in every believer to edify all. Where all can use the gifts God gives.

Consider;

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

1 Corinthians 14: 26. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge… 30. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.”

1 Thessalonians 5: 11. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.”

These believers gathered in homes as we see the pattern in the new testament , they also had a meal together and edified eachother with song, spiritual songs, teaching, prophesying, and with all the gifts they had from God. As many scripture can be brought to show.

How different this is this order of God from many assemblies today including the Roman Catholics and Anglican and Lutherins and Baptist, Pentecostals, etc etc.

And this was not just the order that Paul spoke of for the church but Peter also knew of this. Yet many don’t listen to Peter in this. Consider Peters words about this order;

1 Peter 4: 10. As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. 11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”

Do those who claim to have Peter as their head (rather than Christ as the only head of the church) follow what Peter commands here?

 

[WarriorAngel]

What Jesus established was not a democracy.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Though we are called to do good works according to the doctrine, will never give us leadership, teacher positions.

St Phillip asked 'Do you understand what you're reading?" To the Eunich who was smart enough to know... "How can I without a teacher?'
Even so, he did not MAKE HIMSELF a teacher.

AND with all that said, Tradition/oral came by the Lord for those 40 days and nights after He rose.
Only HIS Church maintained the knowledge.

And as St Paul said 'Keep the oral...'
"The Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth."

 

[LoveofTruth]

What Jesus established was not a democracy.

Jesus is the Head of the church and he works in every believer and all can have part in the body. Unlike many man made groups today that put a man as the head over all instead of Christ who is the head. Even, though sone will say “oh yes, Jesus is the head of the church”, in works and application they deny this. They allow none to edify and minister in the gatherings except their man made head or priest or pastor etc. This is contrary to scripture and the rule of living in Christ.

We see the whole body working together in many places in scripture. You may call this a democracy. But it’s Christ as the head working in every part to make increase of the body and to edify itself. We don’t see one man edifying all and the body quenched in the true gathering of the saints.

Ephesians 4: 15. But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16. From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

When another head is put in place of Christ the Head of the church. We are warned ,

Colossians 2: 8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:… 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.”

 

[rturner76]

Notice how Jesus didn’t say, “tell it unto the priest or Pope”. No, he said bring it before the church. The church as a whole makes decisions and can bind and loose.

True, The Pope can't change anything without the Council of Bishops approval

All the apostles knew that Jesus was the Christ as we see in scripture

Perhaps but Peter was the first to proclaim it. The others followed.

You see, I don’t memorize scripture. When I hear certain things I wait in the Lord and I have verses and thoughts come to me and I share them as I minister.

Like many people who found their own sect of Christianity. What we really need is to receive instruction from those who have followed the Apostles in the Apostolic succession.

Also Jesus is the Rock

Yes, until he passed the keys of the kingdom to St Peter. As in,

Matthew 16
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

I don't doubt Jesus' word when he says this. I wonder why people believe ithe rest of the Bible and not this small passage. It comes at a crucial time in Jesus' ministry.

Not the Rock but a piece or pebble or small stone

See the above Bible passage where the living Christ changes Simon's name to "rock" and declares "Upon the Rock, I will build my church." If we want to reduce Peter's role or name to that of a pebble, (which I don't) even then what are pebbles made of? Rock.

 

[LoveofTruth]

True, The Pope can't change anything without the Council of Bishops approval

Perhaps but Peter was the first to proclaim it. The others followed.

Like many people who found their own sect of Christianity. What we really need is to receive instruction from those who have followed the Apostles in the Apostolic succession.

Yes, until he passed the keys of the kingdom to St Peter. As in,

Matthew 16
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

I don't doubt Jesus' word when he says this. I wonder why people believe ithe rest of the Bible and not this small passage. It comes at a crucial time in Jesus' ministry.

See the above Bible passage where the living Christ changes Simon's name to "rock" and declares "Upon the Rock, I will build my church." If we want to reduce Peter's role or name to that of a pebble, (which I don't) even then what are pebbles made of? Rock.

Notice How Jesus din not say;

“tell it unto the priest or Pope, then make sure what they say gets the approval of the council of Bishops”.

No, he said bring it before the whole church, not just Popes and Councils of Bishops.church. The church as a whole makes decisions and can bind and loose as is clear in scripture.the foundation is Christ, not man, or peter. No other foundation can any lat than that which was laid. Jesus Christ is the head of the church and works in every individual.

peters confession that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God is what the church will be built upon, the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.” 20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

I don't doubt Jesus' word when he says this. I wonder why people believe ithe rest of the Bible and not this small passage. It comes at a crucial time in Jesus' ministry.

See the above Bible passage where the living Christ changes Simon's name to "rock" and declares "Upon the Rock, I will build my church." If we want to reduce Peter's role or name to that of a pebble, (which I don't) even then what are pebbles made of? Rock.

the passage goes like this,

Matthew 16:15	He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16:16	And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17	And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18	And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
16:19	And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
16:20	Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

We see that Jesus was speaking to all of them, but Peter was the first to answer. Then jesus referred to all of hem again in verse 20.

also when Jesus said thou art Peter, he didn't say upon the meaning of your name will I build my church. No he said upon this rock, (that rock is Himself and the revelation of him and belief in him. We see this in other places,

Psalms 40:2

He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings."

and

33:21

And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

Deut 32:4

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Duet 32:18

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

Deut 32:15

But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation

Deut 32:31

For their rock is not as our rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

1 Sam 2:2

There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

2 Sam 22:2

And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer

Ps 62:2

He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

Ps 89:26

He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

and salvation is connected to our confession of Christ as the Son of God. 1 John 4:15 KJV, and 1 John 5:1 KJV


1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

we read that if a man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth he shall be saved. That confession is part of the solid rock of Christ salvation.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Jesus used the word petros (a small stone) and the Greek word "Rock" is (a huge rock or mountain). We saw clearly that Jesus is the Rock. The Church was not founded on Peter, but Jesus Christ the foundation and the apostles and prophets as scripture shows, (Ephesians 2:20)

 

[WarriorAngel]

for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Humans are so used to the Gospels they do not even read them in plain truth now.

-------------------------------
Jesus was stating that it is indeed the Father Almighty Who was choosing Peter as to give him the answer.

AS THIS IS a sign of Peter bearing the truth before the others as the one assigned BEYOND the others.
Now maybe this gets passed over... but I assure you HE did NOT in fact give the others the Truth.

People do not comprehend what is written.
In fact they now easily disregard it and take it for granted.

LET me say that AGAIN:

The Lord choose to give ONLY Simon aka Peter the truth.

This was not a mistake to show the OTHERS who the Lord would GIVE ALL TRUTH TOO.

Umma let you consider this... if you want truth.

Please do not tell me the Almighty gives truth to all.
HE demonstrated that idea patently false...
In that single very important verse.

 

[rturner76]

peters confession that Jesus was the Christ the Son of God is what the church will be built upon, the revelation of Jesus Christ

Why then, in the same sentence as Jesus says "You are the rock" he changes Simon's name to Peter (Rock) and says in the same sentence "and on this rock I will build my church"? How can that NOT be a message to Peter? The scripture does not indicate in any way that he started addressing the whole group.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven

This shows that Peter is divinely inspired by the highest authority. To me, it seems to indicate that Peter hears the voice of God and it's justification for him to lead.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I think it's an assumption to say he was talking to Peter but now he is talking to everyone. The text does not indicate that he is now speaking to the whole group. By what the text itself says, he is making way for Peter (Rock) to lead The Church

This began the Apostolic Succession. Jesus taught his disciples, who taught their students, who taught their students the message for 3 centuries before emperor Constine requested a manual from which to study. This became known as the New Testament. If we can only learn the proper message from The Bible How did students study Christianity for over 300 years, even 400 before it was finalized?

also when Jesus said thou art Peter, he didn't say upon the meaning of your name will I build my church. No he said upon this rock, (that rock is Himself and the revelation of him and belief in him. We see this in other places,

You are free to interpret that particular verse in that way as we have religious freedom. If fact, anybody can even found their own Church based on their own interpretation. I simply choose to read the passage as it is written and follow the interpretation of the church that Jesus himself founded and put the Biblical Cannon together 3-4 centuries after Christ's ascension.

And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock

I believe "Rock" is used many times throughout the Old and New Testaments. They are not all referring to Jesus.

we read that if a man believes in his heart and confesses with his mouth he shall be saved. That confession is part of the solid rock of Christ salvation.

I agree. The word "rock" does not always refer to Jesus specifically as you have demonstrated "rock" can mean The Church, it cam mean Jesus, it can be the proclamation of Jesus saving grace. I believe it can also mean the leader of the global Universal (the meaning of the word caatholic) Church

 

[LoveofTruth]

Why then, in the same sentence as Jesus says "You are the rock" he changes Simon's name to Peter (Rock) and says in the same sentence "and on this rock I will build my church"? How can that NOT be a message to Peter? The scripture does not indicate in any way that he started addressing the whole group.

This shows that Peter is divinely inspired by the highest authority. To me, it seems to indicate that Peter hears the voice of God and it's justification for him to lead.

I think it's an assumption to say he was talking to Peter but now he is talking to everyone. The text does not indicate that he is now speaking to the whole group. By what the text itself says, he is making way for Peter (Rock) to lead The Church

This began the Apostolic Succession. Jesus taught his disciples, who taught their students, who taught their students the message for 3 centuries before emperor Constine requested a manual from which to study. This became known as the New Testament. If we can only learn the proper message from The Bible How did students study Christianity for over 300 years, even 400 before it was finalized?

You are free to interpret that particular verse in that way as we have religious freedom. If fact, anybody can even found their own Church based on their own interpretation. I simply choose to read the passage as it is written and follow the interpretation of the church that Jesus himself founded and put the Biblical Cannon together 3-4 centuries after Christ's ascension.

I believe "Rock" is used many times throughout the Old and New Testaments. They are not all referring to Jesus.

I agree. The word "rock" does not always refer to Jesus specifically as you have demonstrated "rock" can mean The Church, it cam mean Jesus, it can be the proclamation of Jesus saving grace. I believe it can also mean the leader of the global Universal (the meaning of the word caatholic) Church

It’s says nothing of Peter as some “high authority” over all and him passing this on to other apostles as some Pope authority. Paul said he was an apostle to the Gentiles not of men nor by men but by God. And God gives apostles as a gift to the church, not man.

Jesus sent all twelve apostles to preach the gospel and teach His truth. Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church and upon him are we built. And yes the apostles and prophets are also part of that building. We read this clearly in scripture ,

And we see Paul also having the keys of this foundation.

1 Corinthians 3: 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;.

The Church is the body of Christ, where Christ is the head of the church. It is ajso called a spiritual house with living stones and .every believer is a living stone in that house.


Peter understood this and wrote,

1 Peter 2: 4. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5. Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.”

Also we read of all the apostles not just Peter part of this

Ephesians 2: 18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

Notice, not just Peter.

Notice that we have access unto the Father by the a Spirit. This comes by repentance and faith . It was not just Peter that had the keys of the kingdom. Not Peter alone who could open the door of salvation unto God. Paul ajso oreached the gospel 1 Corinthians 15 1-5 and so did every other apostle and saint who evangelizes.

The foundation is part of the keys and sone of those keys are shown here,

Hebrews 6: 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

And Jesus warned against the wrong understanding of authority. He said we are not to be like the authority over others in the world. Yet many make men in the church over others in this authority

Matthew 20: 25. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:”

And all the twelve apostles were sent and given power not just Peter. They all belonged to Jesus at that time.

Luke 9: 1. Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.”

 

[WarriorAngel]

It’s says nothing of Peter as sone “high authority” over all and him passing this on to other apostles as sone Pope authority. Paul said he was an apostle to the Gentiles not of men nor by men but by God. And God gives apostles as a gift to the church, not man.

This is untrue but mostly because you try to pitt scriptures against scriptures.

Keys are Authority.
Why did he get them?
Because the FATHER revealed to him alone truth.

You can try to dance around the basic facts.

Yes Paul said that but guess what Peter said in the council. [when everybody was silenced when he stood up]

BY MY mouth the Gentiles....
Firstly, he was the Apostle of the Jews, so is Peter a liar?
No.
Because Peter is the Authority, then it is by his mouth [Teacher of all] that the gentiles shall have Paul.
Because Paul was told to go to him.
Without Peter, then Paul could not.

St Chrysostom [Bishop of the East] in early or mid 300s said Peters chair [ROME] was Teacher of all.

Unless you have a constant straight knowledge of St Paul's exhorting us to keep the ORAL, you have lost at the gate.

 

[rturner76]

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

It’s says nothing of Peter as sone “high authority” over all and him passing this on to other apostles as sone Pope authority. Paul said he was an apostle to the Gentiles not of men nor by men but by God. And God gives apostles as a gift to the church, not man.

It does say he is given the keys to the kingdom. Apostles ARE God's gift being talented in their own ways and having the ability to found new churches. However as evey church needs a leader, so do the Apostles.

Jesus sent all twelve apostles to preach the gospel and teach His truth. Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church and upon him are we built. And yes the apostles and prophets are also part of that building. We read this clearly in scripture ,

Agreed, but only one Apostle was given the keys, like a Priest or Pastor has the littoral keys to their churches, St Peter was given the keys to open the church for everyone.

1 Corinthians 3: 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;.

The Church is the body of Christ, where Christ is the head of the church. It is ajso called a spiritual house with living stones and .every believer is a living stone in that house.

Agreed but that church also needs a leader.

Notice that we have access unto the Father by the a Spirit. This comes by repentance and faith . It was not just Peter that had the keys of the kingdom. Not Peter alone who could open the door of salvation unto God. Paul ajso oreached the gospel 1 Corinthians 15 1-5 and so did every other apostle and saint who evangelizes.

If I somehow implied that St Peter offered salvation in his name that he is the judge of men's souls or that salvation goes through him, I apologize. I am talking about a more practical aspect of church building. I agree it is God the Father who offers salvation through the finished work of his son Jesus Christ. As Jesus ascended to heaven, he had to leave someone to guide the growth of the newly founded church. I didn't mean to imply that Peter had some power or ability that the Apostles didn't have. As the original Bishops of The Church, St Peter was ranked "First among equals." All of the Apostles were equal, each one having different gifts. One of St Peter's gifts was church administration. Like Peter, The Pope is not allowed to make any changes to doctrine without the support or "votes" from the rest of The Church. They were and are both in a leadership position but not a dictator position.

And Jesus warned against the wrong understanding of authority. He said we are not to be like the authority over others in the world. Yet many make men in the church over others in this authority

I understand and agree that Jesus preached against the wrong authority. I know you are not saying that Jesus didn't have the authority to appoint Peter as what would be the new authority by giving him the keys to the kingdom. It doesn't make him a Church dictator but an authority, meaning he had the purest understanding being that it was The Father himself who personally revealed to him who Christ is.

Matthew 20: 25. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27. And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:”

whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; That Sums it up perfectly.

And all the twelve apostles were sent and given power not just Peter. They all belonged to Jesus at that time.

Luke 9: 1. Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. 2. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.”

Agreed but "whoever will be great among you, let him be your minister. Jesus himself proclaimed the St Peter was special.

To summarize.....I understand how you have been taught to interpret the Bible a certain way. I have too. The thing is that when we believe that the Bible is the only way to understand God's message, we don't acknowledge proper dissemination of the Bible which needs to be taught. It is the reason we have literally 100,000 different churches. Meaning there are 100,000 different ways to interpret scripture nowadays and there used to be only one. I go with that original one.

I appreciate your opinion and it surely given me something to think about
May God bless you and yours.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Paul is giving an account of himself from the very moment of his conversion which occurred on his way to Damascus when Jesus appeared to him for the first time. It was three years after this that he came to Jerusalem, where he spent less than three weeks with the Apostles.

The council concerning accepting him.

Think about that.

St Paul was stating his conversion for what occurred, but why did he seek out the Apostles?

After all, he had truth as you suggest. BUT he did not preach a differing Church. Instead he sought the Apostles and Peter in council.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Paul is giving an account of himself from the very moment of his conversion which occurred on his way to Damascus when Jesus appeared to him for the first time. It was three years after this that he came to Jerusalem, where he spent less than three weeks with the Apostles.

The council concerning accepting him.

Think about that.

St Paul was stating his conversion for what occurred, but why did he seek out the Apostles?

After all, he had truth as you suggest. BUT he did not preach a differing Church. Instead he sought the Apostles and Peter in council.

It would make sense to seek out other believers especially those many apostles who walked with Jesus. But if you read carefully, Paul says that the gospel was given to him by revelation and he was called an apostle not of men nor by men. He even had to rebuke Peter because Peter was to be blamed. Paul also said if those who SEEMED to be somewhat added nothing to him .

Read the book closely in these areas and see if for a second Paul looked at Peter as some high authority Pope type character. No he did not, as wecread

Galatians 1: 1. Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead”

Galatians 1: 11. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 1: 15. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17. Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.”

Galatians 2: 6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles”

Galatians 2: 11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 14. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 15. We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”


Notice that Paul was not an apostle by man or of man. There was no so called “apostolic succession” with him. Paul was called the apostle to the Gentiles. God gives gifts to men such as apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors and teachers.

Yes, Peter and all the apostles were to go to the Gentiles eventually. But this chapter is worth noting. We’re we see Paul went to gentiles (even though he did also reach out to the Jews) and Peter to the Jews (even though he did reach out to gentiles). And Paul did not have to have Peter open the truth or key of knowledge to him it was given by the grace of God through revelation. He said they added nothing to him. As with all the apostles and believers since then God works directly in us. I believe God gives these keys to all believers and ministry. We read of such when Jesus said the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth. And 1 John 2:27 shows that every believer has no need that any man should teach them, the anointing teaches them all things. God also works in us to Mae us perfect unto EVERY good work and to will and to do.

Yes, the gospel has been preached and written down for us now but to know Jesus and to believe is a inward work and a revelation.

 

[LoveofTruth]

It does say he is given the keys to the kingdom. Apostles ARE God's gift being talented in their own ways and having the ability to found new churches. However as evey church needs a leader, so do the Apostles.

Agreed, but only one Apostle was given the keys, like a Priest or Pastor has the littoral keys to their churches, St Peter was given the keys to open the church for everyone.

Agreed but that church also needs a leader.

If I somehow implied that St Peter offered salvation in his name that he is the judge of men's souls or that salvation goes through him, I apologize. I am talking about a more practical aspect of church building. I agree it is God the Father who offers salvation through the finished work of his son Jesus Christ. As Jesus ascended to heaven, he had to leave someone to guide the growth of the newly founded church. I didn't mean to imply that Peter had some power or ability that the Apostles didn't have. As the original Bishops of The Church, St Peter was ranked "First among equals." All of the Apostles were equal, each one having different gifts. One of St Peter's gifts was church administration. Like Peter, The Pope is not allowed to make any changes to doctrine without the support or "votes" from the rest of The Church. They were and are both in a leadership position but not a dictator position.

I understand and agree that Jesus preached against the wrong authority. I know you are not saying that Jesus didn't have the authority to appoint Peter as what would be the new authority by giving him the keys to the kingdom. It doesn't make him a Church dictator but an authority, meaning he had the purest understanding being that it was The Father himself who personally revealed to him who Christ is.

whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; That Sums it up perfectly.

Agreed but "whoever will be great among you, let him be your minister. Jesus himself proclaimed the St Peter was special.

To summarize.....I understand how you have been taught to interpret the Bible a certain way. I have too. The thing is that when we believe that the Bible is the only way to understand God's message, we don't acknowledge proper dissemination of the Bible which needs to be taught. It is the reason we have literally 100,000 different churches. Meaning there are 100,000 different ways to interpret scripture nowadays and there used to be only one. I go with that original one.

I appreciate your opinion and it surely given me something to think about
May God bless you and yours.

Hello, God bless,

I have been taught (as all true believers are taught) by the Soirit to understand the things of God . No man knows the things of God but by the Spirit, as we read in 1 Corinthians 2.

Also, when Jesus was talking to all the apostles, he asked them who men say he was and who they said he was. Peter, just happened to speak up for the group. They all knew he was the Christ. But Jesus blessed Peter for his response as he would have to all of them. He gives the Keyes or knowledge and understanding to all of them and all believers as well through the Soirit. Jesus blessed others for things they said and did but it applies to all who would do similar as I understand from scripture .

As we read ,

John 16: 13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”

So, for sone to say that “only Peter has the Keys of the knowledge and truth of the kingdom” is not right. Paul had the gospel revealed to him by Hod he was not taught it by man as he said in Galatians. He was called to be an apostle by God not of man or by man.

We also read that the truth of God and all things are given to all believers as they abide in Christ and as they grow in thier faith, walking in the spirit.

Consider,

1 John 2: 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”

He was writing concerning those who were seducing them, perhaps saying that they needed a man in authority over them to teach them, maybe similar to the idea today of a man to open and close with keys of knowledge to them etc. But the anointing teaches believers all things. John just said they had no need any man should teach them. Yes, God gives teacher gifts and apostles etc. But we don’t listen to them so much in man’s person, we listen for the anointing to bear witness to the anointing in them.

And there are no one man leaders or pastors or a one priest over the church anywhere in scripture. We do not see a one man over the church but in the negative with men like Diotrephes in third John.

The whole understanding of authority is another issue. Authority is in the word of God we live in, speak and when written.

Authority is not like the Gentile wiorldbas Jesus said. It is not a positional authority but rather a moral spiritual authority. Jesus was questioned about his authority by positional authorities. But His authority was in himself and the word he spoke.
The whole body is to function and edify one another. We do see plural male elders coming among them . But never a one man pastor or priest over the whole church or gatherings. This is a man made tradition that makes the word of God of no effect . Read my other post on the church and Gids order and the pastor king for more info on this. There is too much ton put on this post.

 

[WarriorAngel]

But Pauls witness o how he got the Gospel does not mean he could go it without the Church.
Or Paul is a hypocrit who states that the Church is bulwark of truth.

Mind you, Paul was a rabbi. He very much knows how authority works.
Given he knows, do you think he is like people of today who don't FULLY comprehend??

 

[rturner76]

I have been taught (as all true believers are taught) by the Soirit to understand the things of God . No man knows the things of God but by the Spirit,

I think this is the flaw in Protestantism. If all we need is the spirit to discern and properly interpret what the Bible says. That would mean that the spirit has taught man literally 100,000 different ways to discern the New Testament. I believe that we do need the spirit for proper understanding but not JUST the spirit with no guidance from a teacher or preacher. Does the spirit really lead us into 100,000 different directions? I believe there is one direction and one church. Otherwise every man has his own church based on his own interpretation of scripture and his own theology.

So, for sone to say that “only Peter has the Keys of the knowledge and truth of the kingdom” is not right. Paul had the gospel revealed to him by Hod he was not taught it by man as he said in Galatians. He was called to be an apostle by God not of man or by man.

We also read that the truth of God and all things are given to all believers as they abide in Christ and as they grow in thier faith, walking in the spirit.

I don't think I said that St Peter was (or is) the only one with knowledge of the truth. He was simply the first one to receive the revelation of who Christ was and his purpose on Earth. This was revealed to him by God the Father. This made him the first among equals. Not "better" than anybody but a leader. A Bishop appoints leaders of the churches in his jurisdiction. Those leaders appoint other leaders like choir directors, Sunday school teachers Bible study leaders, etc. St Peter wasn;t more blessed than anyone, he was appointed by Jesus Christ to be the leader among the apostles. All of the 12 were bishops and when they founded a new church they would appoint a leader. Jesus appointed St Peter as leader of the apostles. That is why the protestant church has broken into 100,000 pieces. Everyone wants to be a leader and teach their own theology. Under one leader, the church moves in one direction with the help of the church council. I a church has 100 leaders, it will move in 100 directions.