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The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

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WarriorAngel

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No, I was led put of that religious system to Christ himself.

And you say Jesus established the one true church with Peter,

Yet Peter didn’t say that or Paul

In fact we read some interesting verses that you may want to consider,

Paul (not Peter here) said,

2 Corinthians 11: 28. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.


Galatians 2:. 6. But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7. But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles. 9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10. Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. 11. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed”
FWIW, according to Jewish culture, keys mean authority.

Isaiah explained it in 22. He then prophesied the child born unto us would have the 'government on His shoulder'.
In that time, the King [or steward in the kings absence] tied the kingdom keys with a rope around the waist and over the shoulder.
Jesus is King and He handed the earthly kingdom to Peter [His steward and henceforth], by the keys which means authority.

So it is more than reading an English translated Bible to understand. It's the culture, the Hebrew, the Koine Greek and so forth.
An English translation is rather insufficient.
Solo scriptura, if you wish to quote Peter or Paul, goes against what they have said.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Jesus said to all the disciples.This authority is for all believers in Christ.
[/QUOTE]
BY this Very statement, then you must ascertain all Catholics are right to be Catholic.

Seriously, if you believe that statement, you have absolutely no argument.
Nor does a single truth exist.

If the Lord said to a person I give you the authority to cast out devils. That would be true to the person he is talking to .but this power is given to all believers as God leads them.

But consider a correction to your interpretation of Peter being told what he was, abs how this applies to all
To suggest you could correct anyone, directly defies your previous mistaken notion above.
Matthew 18: 16. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Notice how Jesus didn’t say, “tell it unto the priest or Pope”. No, he said bring it before the church. The church as a whole makes decisions and can bind and loose.
SO lets go back to the very simplistic and erroneous statement you made in regards to authority.
According to you we're all authority.
So therefore; truth is inconsequential and again, you have absolutely no argument.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Also consider

1 John 2: 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.”
There was one Church for 1500 years sans the schisms.
But one.

Anything after that is not from that.

If there is one Church for 1500 years, what part of scriptures does it say the Church would eventually fail and need to change beliefs?

Schisms may exist, but the Traditions are all as One Church despite the quarreling.

But post and during the 1500 AD reforms, not even those leaving the One Church could agree and then more splinters and so forth.
 
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LoveofTruth

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FWIW, according to Jewish culture, keys mean authority.

Isaiah explained it in 22. He then prophesied the child born unto us would have the 'government on His shoulder'.
In that time, the King [or steward in the kings absence] tied the kingdom keys with a rope around the waist and over the shoulder.
Jesus is King and He handed the earthly kingdom to Peter [His steward and henceforth], by the keys which means authority.

So it is more than reading an English translated Bible to understand. It's the culture, the Hebrew, the Koine Greek and so forth.
An English translation is rather insufficient.
Solo scriptura, if you wish to quote Peter or Paul, goes against what they have said.
Jesus gives all believers authority to bind and loose and to make judgements in him as he told us.

Matthew 18: 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Sone of the keys of the kingdom are given to all here

Hebrews 6: 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”

Peter at that time was going to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles primarily,

As we read that Peter recognized this

Galatians 2: 9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

Peter himself did not set himself up or allow any to do so over all as some lord over other or try to have supreme authority over others . He considered himself as one of the elders.

Peter said,

1 Peter 5: 1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”

And it is the Holy Ghost who makes men overseers not men, as God showed us here,

Acts 20: 28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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FWIW, according to Jewish culture, keys mean authority.

Isaiah explained it in 22. He then prophesied the child born unto us would have the 'government on His shoulder'.
In that time, the King [or steward in the kings absence] tied the kingdom keys with a rope around the waist and over the shoulder.
Jesus is King and He handed the earthly kingdom to Peter [His steward and henceforth], by the keys which means authority.

So it is more than reading an English translated Bible to understand. It's the culture, the Hebrew, the Koine Greek and so forth.
An English translation is rather insufficient.
Solo scriptura, if you wish to quote Peter or Paul, goes against what they have said.
I can agree that to understand the scriptures is more than just being led by the Spirit. A person has to be able to read and he can use all natural sources to understand the language etc. But to know the things of God is by the spirit as we read clearly,

1 Corinthians 2: 1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. …4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. …10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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BY this Very statement, then you must ascertain all Catholics are right to be Catholic.

“Seriously, if you believe that statement, you have absolutely no argument.
Nor does a single truth exist.


To suggest you could correct anyone, directly defies your previous mistaken notion above.

What???

All believers in Christ who do all “in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” have authority and that power is from God.

When the whole church can make authorities judgements as we

Matthew 18: 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Notice very carefully that Jesus is talking about the whole church making decisions in judgement.
 
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LoveofTruth

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There was one Church for 1500 years sans the schisms.
But one.

Anything after that is not from that.

If there is one Church for 1500 years, what part of scriptures does it say the Church would eventually fail and need to change beliefs?

Schisms may exist, but the Traditions are all as One Church despite the quarreling.

But post and during the 1500 AD reforms, not even those leaving the One Church could agree and then more splinters and so forth.
You are not correct here.

Peter said he had the gospel to the circumcision (Jews) and Paul had the gospel to the Gentiles.

And yes there is one body of Christ abd the middle wall has been broken down, but even though sone in the gatherings are in Christ if they walk in the light, many within that gathering can fall away and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils . Believers are told to withdraw from such. So if a group begins to go away from the truth and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (which has happened many times in history) the believers are told to withdraw and not have fellowship with them. What fellowship has light with darkness.

Now if the large group has let’s say one million believers in it and the doctrines of the devil come among them and only 300 thousand of them leave the gatherings to gather in another place that is biblical.

Here are some scriptures to consider that will show what I say here to those who have ears to hear

1 Timothy 4: 1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2. Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3. Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

1 Timothy 6: 5. Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

2 Thessalonians 3: 6. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 11. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.”

2 Corinthians 6: 14. Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? …17. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,”

So the true believers who are the church may be among many professing believers who do not walk in the truth. If they leave and gather in another place, the church has not been destroyed by the gates of hell, but rather the true believers have simply relocated and withdraw from the error and false doctrines etc.
 
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rturner76

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Notice how Jesus didn’t say, “tell it unto the priest or Pope”. No, he said bring it before the church. The church as a whole makes decisions and can bind and loose.
As the Cardinals choose the Pope. The first Pope being St Peter who was considered the first ampng equals, so have all of the Popes been considered for the past 2000 years
 
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rturner76

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Since the army days of the church in the new covenant we see false apostles and corruption.
Yes, in individuals but not as the Catholoc (universal) Church. I see more false apostles and corruption in these modern day televangelists and Protestans who don't like what they are being taught and start their own churches based on their own ubderstanding and not the understanding of the Apostolic Succession.

Are you saying that St Peter was a false apostle? According to Jesus own words, he was not. There have been false apostles and even false Popes but The Church always straightens out the confusion whereas the Protestants sew more confusion the more they split off into different factions, even within their own denominations.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes, in individuals but not as the Catholoc (universal) Church. I see more false apostles and corruption in these modern day televangelists and Protestans who don't like what they are being taught and start their own churches based on their own ubderstanding and not the understanding of the Apostolic Succession.

Are you saying that St Peter was a false apostle? According to Jesus own words, he was not. There have been false apostles and even false Popes but The Church always straightens out the confusion whereas the Protestants sew more confusion the more they split off into different factions, even within their own denominations.
No, I’m not saying Peter was a false apostle, where would you get that idea from what I said.. Jesus called twekve original apostles. Paul was an apostle not of men nor by man but by Jesus Christ

And we see in The church in Galatia that false teachers were entering in and in 2nd Corinthians 11 so the believers who are part of the church could leave those gatherings abd meet in a different t place and then the church still goes on even though they left the large group of false doctrine teachers.
 
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LoveofTruth

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As the Cardinals choose the Pope. The first Pope being St Peter who was considered the first ampng equals, so have all of the Popes been considered for the past 2000 years
No such thing as a “cardinal” in the New Testament church that was an invented office which came much later. . God calls men to give them gifts as he always has
 
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LoveofTruth

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I have never said the light of Christ is a visible light. That would be foolish. It is a spiritual light. But all the references to that light in scripture are of it being an external light, not a light inside us.
Jesus said ,

Matthew 6: 23. “…If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!”

And he said;

John 15: 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

And sone still think that Jesus Chrust in not on anyone , I have talked to those who say this. Yet Jesus Christ is in every believer. He is the true Light that lighteth them. They have the light off life in him.

Notice that Jesus told the disciples he was in them before Pentecost. The Holy Ghost was not yet given.
 
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LoveofTruth

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We are discussing Sola Scriptura (and the reason some churches and people denounce it). If it is said that something else should be followed instead, we need to know what that might be--and why. None of that has been produced so far.

the something else that we must follow is not man madectraditions or human ideas and order. But as I showed it is to be led by the spirit and to live and walk in the new creation in Christ. Then, we can understand to the degree of maturity and faith the Holy scriptures which are given by the Spirit.

As far as traditions, the ones we read about in 2 Thess. The church had many things they did and spoke about and followed God’s s order. But we can see these referred to often in scripture also. Even if they were not a written command to every church.

For example, Paul speaks of him and others ordaining elders in every church. We also follow this tradition in the gatherings even though he did not say in writing to ordain elders . We gather in homes as the early church did following that order and tradition that they also did. We also do many things that we see by example and word that the church did. This is by example not always an expressed command. Even though they have been handed down to all through the scripture. In fact there are many things we do when we gather and in our walk that are not direct commands.

But I do reject many man made traditions and men who just added thier own traditions as we see through history. Jesus would rebuke even the handed down traditions of the Jews and say that they made the word of God if noneffect by their traditions.

God’s order for the church gathering for example is seen in the examples we have in scripture.we also read sone direct commands for this order in certain places. Yet many today follow the traditions of men that make this order and commands of God of noneffect.

Read 1 Cor. 14:26-38 and see if any follow these commands

There is a lot that could be shared about this issue of traditions as we can see in the practice of the church from scripture . But for now, this is a start.
 
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Fidelibus

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Yes there are many fake teachers but we still need to allow Christ to work effectually in the body to edify one snother in Christ as he works in us.
1.To what authority do "you" turn, to determine who is a "fake teacher" and who is not?

2. Let's say someone disagrees with your interpretation of scripture, and you both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in your interpretations of scripture, where would you turn to determine who's interpretation is correct and who's is in error?

I would hope that we agree, the Holy Spirit is incapable of being in error, correct? If so, one of you would have to be in error, correct? Or maybe you both are. Again, how would you determine this, to what authority would/could you turn?


Have a Blessed Day!
 
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LoveofTruth

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1.To what authority do "you" turn, to determine who is a "fake teacher" and who is not?

2. Let's say someone disagrees with your interpretation of scripture, and you both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in your interpretations of scripture, where would you turn to determine who's interpretation is correct and who's is in error?

I would hope that we agree, the Holy Spirit is incapable of being in error, correct? If so, one of you would have to be in error, correct? Or maybe you both are. Again, how would you determine this, to what authority would/could you turn?


Have a Blessed Day!
Hello, God bless,

Consider

John 8: 31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

1 John 2: 27.
1 John 2: 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.”

We need God working in us, and the body of believers and holy scripture as I said in my first few post.

Also we must examine ourselves if we are in the faith and have Jesus Christ in us and prove all things, try the spirits, and Be fully persuaded in our conscience.
 
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rturner76

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Notice how Jesus didn’t say, “tell it unto the priest or Pope”. No, he said bring it before the church. The church as a whole makes decisions and can bind and loose.
What I had in mind is a couple chapters before what you have quoted when Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter (which is translated to me "Rock")

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.

It seems that before Jesus accepted his calling to be crucified, he was the leader of this new movement. Once he knew he would no longer be present on Earth in a physical body, he had to pass that leadership to someone else. Jesus chose the desciple who acknowleged that Jesus was the Messiah. The others were not aware of this and said he was the return of Elijah and other prophets. So Jesus recognized Simon's true understanding of his mission and changed his name to Peter (Rock) and gave him the "keys to the kingdom." St Peter of course was not immortal so when it was his time, a successor was chosen. Successors have been chosen by The Church ever since Jesus chose St. Peter.
 
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LoveofTruth

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What I had in mind is a couple chapters before what you have quoted when Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter (which is translated to me "Rock")

17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e] loosed in heaven.

It seems that before Jesus accepted his calling to be crucified, he was the leader of this new movement. Once he knew he would no longer be present on Earth in a physical body, he had to pass that leadership to someone else. Jesus chose the desciple who acknowleged that Jesus was the Messiah. The others were not aware of this and said he was the return of Elijah and other prophets. So Jesus recognized Simon's true understanding of his mission and changed his name to Peter (Rock) and gave him the "keys to the kingdom." St Peter of course was not immortal so when it was his time, a successor was chosen. Successors have been chosen by The Church ever since Jesus chose St. Peter.
All the apostles knew that Jesus was the Christ as we see in scripture

John 6: 67. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68. Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

You see, I don’t memorize scripture. When I hear certain things I wait in the Lord and I have verses and thoughts come to me and I share them as I minister.

Also Jesus is the Rock

1 Corinthians 10: 3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”


And

Deuteronomy 32: 3. Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. 4. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”


And the nane Peter means

apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than 3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock. Compare 2786.

Not the Rock but a piece or pebble or small stone
 
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Fidelibus

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Hello, God bless,

Consider

John 8: 31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

1 John 2: 27.
1 John 2: 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.”

We need God working in us, and the body of believers and holy scripture as I said in my first few post.

Also we must examine ourselves if we are in the faith and have Jesus Christ in us and prove all things, try the spirits, and Be fully persuaded in our conscience.
With due respect, you did not address my questions. All I see here is you posting scripture passages and giving your personal interpretations of them. What if I or somebody else disagreed with your interpretation, to what authority would you turn to determine who is correct and who is in error. So, I will repost my questions in the hope you will address them.

"1.To what authority do "you" turn, to determine who is a "fake teacher" and who is not?

2. Let's say someone disagrees with your interpretation of scripture, and you both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in your interpretations of scripture, where would you turn to determine who's interpretation is correct and who's is in error?"


Have a Blessed Day!
 
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WarriorAngel

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You are not correct here.
You said all Christians have the keys.
You said teachers need not continue.

You said I/we all have the keys.
The argument ceases. :|
 
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WarriorAngel

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Jesus gives all believers authority to bind and loose and to make judgements in him as he told us.

Matthew 18: 17. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Sone of the keys of the kingdom are given to all here

Hebrews 6: 1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
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There is nothing in these verses that even have a similar connotation.

Isaiah said THE STEWARD gets the keys to open and shut doors.

It's tremendously in err to believe the Lord would make all authority over HIS CHURCH.
You Simon are ROCK.
You get the keys to open and shut the DOORS to Heaven.
IE - what you teach will be as Heaven accepts.

THIS is not so for lay people.
You cannot cherry pick scriptures or Epistles and choose what they mean because St Peter who was OPENING and shutting a door in Heaven said you 'interpret' [wrest] them to your own damnation.
The one and only who had the keys.
Peter at that time was going to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles primarily,

As we read that Peter recognized this

Galatians 2: 9. And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”

Peter himself did not set himself up or allow any to do so over all as some lord over other or try to have supreme authority over others . He considered himself as one of the elders.

Peter said,

1 Peter 5: 1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”

And it is the Holy Ghost who makes men overseers not men, as God showed us here,

Acts 20: 28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
 
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