The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

[YeshuaFan]

No, the Bible does not state that the Book of James is the inspired word of God. If it said that you should be able to give me the exact chapter and verse where I can find this teaching. But you cannot.

It is the tradition of the Church that holds that the Book of James is the inspired word of God. The same tradition on which your beliefs are based but which you cannot admit because it conflicts with your theology.

And of course I believe the Bible to be divinely revealed. I have made that clear several times so there is not need for you to keep beating the same dead horse. What I do not hold is that Sacred Scripture purports that each of the books in the canon to be Sacred Scripture. If that were the case Martin Luther, the person most closely associated with Sola Scriptura itself, could not have been so quick to have thrown James out of the Bible. If that were the case you could give me the chapter and verse that teaches that James is the inspired word of God. You cannot.

First, the comment that I wrote was not directed to you. Second, no. This is not true. I have no misunderstanding whatsoever. Nor have you explained what the alleged misunderstanding is. This simply amounts to an ad hominem attack without substance.

James was inspired by the Holy Spirit, as it was perhaps first of the NT books recorded down for us, and he and Paul do not contradict at all when rightly understood!

 

[Swag365]

James was inspired by the Holy Spirit

Agreed. But the Bible does not state this. This belief, held by all Christians, is a Tradition of the Church. That was the point.

as it was perhaps first of the NT books recorded down for us, and he and Paul do not contradict at all when rightly understood!

And how is James "Rightly Understood"?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Agreed. But the Bible does not state this. This belief, held by all Christians, is a Tradition of the Church. That was the point.

And how is James "Rightly Understood"?

James was showing us that he was saying what John Calvin would much later on in the relationship between faith and good works, "When therefore, we say that the faithful are esteemed just even in their deeds this is not stated as a cause of their salvation, and we must diligently notice that the cause of salvation is excluded from this doctrine; for, when we discuss the cause, we must look nowhere else but to the mercy of God, and there we must stop. But although works tend in no way to the cause of justification, yet, when the elect sons of God were justified freely by faith, at the same time their works are esteemed righteous by the same gratuitous liberality. Thus it still remains true, that faith without works justifies, although this needs prudence and a sound interpretation; for this proposition, that faith without works justifies is true and yet false, according to the different senses which it bears. The proposition, that faith without works justifies by itself, is false, because faith without works is void. But if the clause "without works" is joined with the word "justifies," the proposition will be true. Therefore faith cannot justify when it is without works, because it is dead, and a mere fiction. He who is born of God is just, as John says (1 John v. 18). Thus faith can be no more separated from works than the sun from his heat: yet faith justifies without works, because works form no reason for our justification; but faith alone reconciles us to God, and causes him to love us, not in ourselves, but in his only-begotten Son."
Justification, Faith and Works: Calvin on Ezekiel 18:17

 

[Swag365]

James was showing us that he was saying what John Calvin would much later on in the relationship between faith and good works, "When therefore, we say that the faithful are esteemed just even in their deeds this is not stated as a cause of their salvation, and we must diligently notice that the cause of salvation is excluded from this doctrine; for, when we discuss the cause, we must look nowhere else but to the mercy of God, and there we must stop. But although works tend in no way to the cause of justification, yet, when the elect sons of God were justified freely by faith, at the same time their works are esteemed righteous by the same gratuitous liberality. Thus it still remains true, that faith without works justifies, although this needs prudence and a sound interpretation; for this proposition, that faith without works justifies is true and yet false, according to the different senses which it bears. The proposition, that faith without works justifies by itself, is false, because faith without works is void. But if the clause "without works" is joined with the word "justifies," the proposition will be true. Therefore faith cannot justify when it is without works, because it is dead, and a mere fiction. He who is born of God is just, as John says (1 John v. 18). Thus faith can be no more separated from works than the sun from his heat: yet faith justifies without works, because works form no reason for our justification; but faith alone reconciles us to God, and causes him to love us, not in ourselves, but in his only-begotten Son."
Justification, Faith and Works: Calvin on Ezekiel 18:17

This is wrong. James clearly states that by works a man is justified.

 

[Albion]

This is wrong. James clearly states that by works a man is justified.

Certainly not. That--what you said--would mean that any non-believer could be saved solely on the basis of his kindness, dedication, etc.

What James was saying was this:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
—James 2:26

In other words, faith--in order to be true and effective--must produce works such as happened with Abraham whom everyone recognizes as having shown his faith by his extraordinary act of obedience.

 

[Swag365]

Certainly not. That--what you said--would mean that any non-believer could be saved solely on the basis of his kindness, dedication, etc.

No it does not.

What James was saying was this:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
—James 2:26

Agreed. That is exactly what James states.

In other words, faith--in order to be true and effective--must produce works such as happened with Abraham whom everyone recognizes as having shown his faith by his extraordinary act of obedience.

No, the text does not state that the "faith" in James was not a "true faith". It does not state that a "true faith" must produce works (although I do not have a problem with this idea conceptually).

The text states that by works a man is justified, and that is exactly what it means.

 

[YeshuaFan]

This is wrong. James clearly states that by works a man is justified.

Justified before fellow men, as in they can see that oine has already been justified before God due to seeing good works now being produced by that relationship!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Certainly not. That--what you said--would mean that any non-believer could be saved solely on the basis of his kindness, dedication, etc.

What James was saying was this:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
—James 2:26

In other words, faith--in order to be true and effective--must produce works such as happened with Abraham whom everyone recognizes as having shown his faith by his extraordinary act of obedience.

As Calvin himself wrote, that faith alone in the person and work of of the Lord Jesus saves us, but that type of faith will indeed have good works with it to accompany salvation!

 

[YeshuaFan]

No it does not.


Agreed. That is exactly what James states.
No, the text does not state that the "faith" in James was not a "true faith". It does not state that a "true faith" must produce works (although I do not have a problem with this idea conceptually).

The text states that by works a man is justified, and that is exactly what it means.

Paul stated that no flesh shall be justified by works of the law, and James and him agreed on that!

 

[Swag365]

Justified before fellow men, as in they can see that oine has already been justified before God due to seeing good works now being produced by that relationship!

No. Neither of the examples had anything to do with being justified before men. Nor does the text state "justified before men." And the context of the section is salvation. That is why James asks "Can faith save him?" He did not ask "Can faith vindicate him before men?" That is not what the chapter is about.

 

[Hawkins]

No. Neither of the examples had anything to do with being justified before men. Nor does the text state "justified before men." And the context of the section is salvation. That is why James asks "Can faith save him?" He did not ask "Can faith vindicate him before men?" That is not what the chapter is about.

So in your opinion, Paul contradicts James or not?

They both are talking about the same thing, James just further explained what kind of faith is needed, as even the demons believe God exists.

James 2:17-19 (NIV2011)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

 

[Albion]

No. Neither of the examples had anything to do with being justified before men.

Actually, that is an important part of the Epistle. However, it requires us to not get caught on a debate over the word "justified."

James is certainly saying that a person who claims faith but doesn't really have faith is "playing to the crowd" with his protestations. It is not that he's keeping his alleged commitment secret. If that were the case, this Epistle wouldn't have been written.

 

[Swag365]

So in your opinion, Paul contradicts James or not?

They both are talking about the same thing, James just further explained what kind of faith is needed, as even the demons believe God exists.

James 2:17-19 (NIV2011)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

No contradiction.

 

[Swag365]

Actually, that is an important part of the Epistle. However, it requires us to not get caught on a debate over the word "justified."

James is certainly saying that a person who claims faith but doesn't really have faith is "playing to the crowd" with his protestations. It is not that he's keeping his alleged commitment secret. If that were the case, this Epistle wouldn't have been written.

No, the text does not state that the man in question does not really have faith. The text asks "Can faith save him?" If he doesn't even have faith the question makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Albion]

No, the text does not state that the man in question does not really have faith.

It certainly does.

 

[Swag365]

It certainly does.

Nonsense.

 

[Hawkins]

No, the text does not state that the man in question does not really have faith. The text asks "Can faith save him?" If he doesn't even have faith the question makes no sense whatsoever.

Paul said that we are saved by faith but without the works of law. So are you saying that Paul contradicts James or not? This is the first for any stance to be clarified, as an asserted NO is pointless.

 

[Swag365]

Paul said that we are saved by faith but without the works of law. So are you saying that Paul contradicts James or not? This is the first for any stance to be clarified, as an asserted NO is pointless.

Paul does not contradict James, but James does conflict with Sola Fide, because Paul never teaches Sola Fide.

Heck, even Martin Luther, who popularized Sola Fide, admitted that James contradicts Sola Fide.

If there is a specific verse that you desire to discuss, please post the verse. Then we can discuss it. May need to get back to you later though.

 

[Hawkins]

Paul does not contradict James, but James does conflict with Sola Fide, because Paul never teaches Sola Fide.

Heck, even Martin Luther, who popularized Sola Fide, admitted that James contradicts Sola Fide.

If there is a specific verse that you desire to discuss, please post the verse. Then we can discuss it. May need to get back to you later though.

Romans 3:28 (NIV2011)
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

That's what Paul teaches. This is the basis of the faith alone theology. So do you agree directly with this verse or not.

If you have an alternative explanation on what Paul said, which in a way not contradicting James, please share your POV.

 

[Swag365]

Romans 3:28 (NIV2011)
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

That's what Paul teaches. This is the basis of the faith alone theology. So do you agree directly with this verse or not.

If you have an alternative explanation on what Paul said, which in a way not contradicting James, please share your POV.

Of course I agree with Romans 3:28. There is no conflict. 1) "works of the law" does not mean "all works". 2) Justification is not a one time event.