The Romans 13 questions

[Davarr]

We are endowed with a Constitutional right and responsibility-one that specifically arms us to fight for it if it is threatened. This is one of the few nations that have ever made free citizens of its' people, by fiat. It is a privilege to be born an American-one that many fought and died to secure. For this, I have always been thankful.
That being said, our government is not immune to evil-it is staffed by humans, making it vulnerable to corruption. We should be voting in righteous men-when they are presented to us. In most cases, however, we get the 'lesser of two evils' trap that constantly supplies Washington with crooked snakes. Good and evil are clearly laid out, as you said, and the Scripture makes it clear that we can choose no evil. Thus, I am often deprived of my vote my not having a good man for which to vote.
Additionally, our government dishonors Yahweh grievously. Homosexuality is lauded as holy in marriage; children are murdered for convenience, and we openly support an Apartheid state in Israel, to name just a few. This makes it difficult to respect it, since they hate Jehovah this much. They clearly do not consider His council wise-thus degrading His name amongst the nations.
The whole Bible is the Word of God-absolutely. It is wise to read it as one document-since it has one Author. Some of the books-Psalms, Proverbs, Ecc, etc-these were written by men who knew El personally, and are fit for teaching. He does command us to do rightly-which can, and often does, mean taking a stand against a government gone mad with power. At the same time, He commands us to obey civil authority. This becomes an impasse in cases like Bonhoffer's. Ultimately, I think you have to be willing to die for your beliefs, and accept the final dispensation of state force, in order to do right. That time is soon coming, when the Antichrist emerges. Then, we will have to fight the power-and die for it (or worse); for this disobedience, we will given martyr's crowns. It is a strange dichotomy, but Jesus speaks of David and the priests as being lawbreakers who are rectified. I think when the moment comes, you choose what you are able, and trust God to see you home.

 

[marineimaging]

We are endowed with a Constitutional right and responsibility-one that specifically arms us to fight for it if it is threatened. This is one of the few nations that have ever made free citizens of its' people, by fiat. It is a privilege to be born an American-one that many fought ...,

I think when the moment comes, you choose what you are able, and trust God to see you home.

When addressing a biblical position and someone starts off with "I think...,", or "In my opinion, what God said was...," my first response is, "Please identify chapter and verse." Especially when I know that what they are saying is taken out of context, or is just as flat as a fritter, no holds barred, absolutely wrong. Davarr, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. So, to the question should we obey the government REGARDLESS of how bad they might be, our government is not just the people. Our laws were set and the wheels were set in motion at the founding our our country for the governed to be the governor.

So, if we sit back and do nothing and subsequently allow evil to infiltrate the highest offices and we allow graft and corruption to run amok, then we are just as guilty ourselves. Will you find that in this biblical chapter? No, because no government like ours existed at that time so why address it? If God had addressed America then he would have to have led Paul in his Epistle to the Romans to first, address a way of governing of which he had never seen and secondly, speak to the future something like, "Some day a nation will rise out of new ground to be a world leader but it will be formed to let the people govern, so in that case my (God's) rules will be blowing like the wind and changing on the wim of the government." So then he might also need to say "Someday in the future there will be chariots with no horses...," and, "Someday in the future there will be furniture that speaks the language of the people and tells them how to act and what to do and where to go and they will follow this strange man-made intelligence and treat it as their private god." No, God breathed Paul's words to address the governed in a way that would stand the test of time and in that we, the governed, are supposed to be the governor then it is incumbent on us to also clean house of evil ourselves.

Thank you for pointing out the most egregious things we permit as leaders in this world. Peace at the price of murder in the womb, peace at the price of forced servitude, peace at the price of homogenizing religion, peace at the price of turning our backs on our loving Father in Heaven, peace for denying Christ Jesus as Messiah, and that the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. No, there is no peace. Only Heads and Hearts in the sand.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Romans 13 teaches that we should not resist the authorities. It seems that the only qualification for being an authority is and always been a monopoly of force and violence. And what do we do if the authority does the opposite of what it was meant to do, namely “to reward the good and to punish the evil”?
And also, what if one authority resists another authority, which side should I pick?
This is not a flood or trolling, these are the questions that shake my faith.

Obviously, there are clear limits to obeying the secular and even religious authorities. How do we square civil disobedience (as against Hitler) with 1 Peter 2:13 and Romans 13:1? By revealing the balancing scriptures which reveal their limits. This same Peter, who wrote that we should obey authorities, also, when put to the test, disobeyed them when the authorities went clearly against God’s will: ““The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. ‘We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,’ he said. ‘Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.’ Peter and the other apostles replied: ‘We must obey God rather than human beings!’” (Acts 5:27-29)

I might add such scriptures as Matthew 10:28, Romans 12:2, and Proverbs 29:26. Oh yes, and…“Put not your trust in rulers, nor in any child of earth, for there is no help in them. Happy are they who have the God of Jacob for their help! Whose hope is in the LORD their God.” (Psalm 146:2, 4)

As the late great Christian teacher John R.W. Stott put it: “Discipleship sometimes calls for disobedience. Indeed, civil disobedience is a biblical doctrine, for there are four or five notable examples of it in Scripture. It arises naturally from the affirmation that Jesus is Lord. The principle is clear, even though its application may involve believers in agonies of conscience. It is this. We are to submit to the state, because its authority is derived from God and its officials are God's ministers, right up to the point where obedience to the state would involve us in disobedience to God. At that point our Christian duty is to disobey the state in order to obey God. For if the state misuses its God-given authority, and presumes either to command what God forbids or to forbid what God commands, we have to say 'no' to the state in order to say 'yes' to Christ. As Peter put it, 'we must obey God rather than men.' Or in Calvin's words, 'obedience to man must not become disobedience to God'.”

It is all about obeying God's will instead of that of government when the two are clearly in conflict. Likewise, when authorities are in conflict, which one is following mostly closely the scriptures? We need to be praying for discernment for God's will. And sometimes we will have to choose the lesser of evils (like when we vote in elections).

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

When addressing a biblical position and someone starts off with "I think...,", or "In my opinion, what God said was...," my first response is, "Please identify chapter and verse." Especially when I know that what they are saying is taken out of context, or is just as flat as a fritter, no holds barred, absolutely wrong. Davarr, you pretty much hit the nail on the head. So, to the question should we obey the government REGARDLESS of how bad they might be, our government is not just the people. Our laws were set and the wheels were set in motion at the founding our our country for the governed to be the governor.

So, if we sit back and do nothing and subsequently allow evil to infiltrate the highest offices and we allow graft and corruption to run amok, then we are just as guilty ourselves. Will you find that in this biblical chapter? No, because no government like ours existed at that time so why address it? If God had addressed America then he would have to have led Paul in his Epistle to the Romans to first, address a way of governing of which he had never seen and secondly, speak to the future something like, "Some day a nation will rise out of new ground to be a world leader but it will be formed to let the people govern, so in that case my (God's) rules will be blowing like the wind and changing on the wim of the government." So then he might also need to say "Someday in the future there will be chariots with no horses...," and, "Someday in the future there will be furniture that speaks the language of the people and tells them how to act and what to do and where to go and they will follow this strange man-made intelligence and treat it as their private god." No, God breathed Paul's words to address the governed in a way that would stand the test of time and in that we, the governed, are supposed to be the governor then it is incumbent on us to also clean house of evil ourselves.

Thank you for pointing out the most egregious things we permit as leaders in this world. Peace at the price of murder in the womb, peace at the price of forced servitude, peace at the price of homogenizing religion, peace at the price of turning our backs on our loving Father in Heaven, peace for denying Christ Jesus as Messiah, and that the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. No, there is no peace. Only Heads and Hearts in the sand.

Ideally and idealistically, yes, the American government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. But practically speaking, we do have leaders, judges, and those who enforce the laws pretty much like any other type of government. The only real addition for American citizens is that we should (as Christians) be more involved in influencing the leaders in the direction of God's will as it is revealed in the Bible. At least we should vote, but there are also other ways to influence elected leaders. Citizens don't just have liberty in the USA, we have responsibility.