The role of the gospel?

Sovereign Grace

Certified Flunky
Jul 5, 2014
334
109
52
Right here, right now
✟43,136.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Sorry if that is a rather poor way of wording this, but it is the best I could think of...

I ask this as I see so many times ppl saying things like 'when Jesus was on the cross, He was thinking of you', and I think that does violence to the gospel. Now, I see the word of God, the bible en toto of God's way of conveying what He has done, is doing now, and will do later, to all His creation. I see the gospel as God's way of conveying what He did in Christ, to procure salvation for those the Father gave to the Son.

Now to get to the 'nuts and bolts' of my question. I see the gospel as a covenant the Father made with the Son, and we were not in that covenant. Hold on before you call me a heretic. It is like a marriage of a wife and husband. They are the ones in that covenant and not their children, too. And marriage is a covenant with the children being an outpouring of that covenant. So I think the covenant of grace is an extension, an outpouring of the covenant betwixt God and His Son, with us, the believers, the recipients of that covenant.

Now, is this considered orthodox? Where am I wrong, if you think I am wrong above. Trust me, I have no problem being shown I am wrong.
 

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟748,024.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Reformed folks call this the "The Covenant of Redemption" or "The Everlasting Covenant."

I think it's biblical.

From A. W. Pink's work titled The Divine Covenants:

Let us consider these features:

1. Christ was set up (Prov. 8:23) in the eternal counsels of the three‑one Jehovah as the head over and heir of all things: the figure of His headship is seen in the Creator’s words to Adam, “have dominion over the fish of the sea,” and so forth (Gen. 1:28). There we behold Him as the lord of all creation and head of all mankind. But, second, Adam was alone: among all the creatures he ruled, there was not found a help‑meet for him. He was solitary in the world over which he was king; so Christ was alone when set up by God in a past eternity. Third, a help‑meet was provided for Adam, who was one in nature with himself, as pure and holy as he was, in every way suitable to him: Eve became his wife and companion (Gen. 2:21‑24). Beautifully did that set forth the eternal marriage between Christ and His church (Eph.45:29‑32). Let it be carefully noted that Eve was married to Adam, and was pure and holy, before she fell; so it was with the church (Eph. 1:3‑6). (For much in this paragraph we are indebted to a sermon by J. K. Popham.).

2. In order for him to execute His covenant engagement it was necessary for Christ to assume human nature and be made in all things like unto His brethren, so that He might enter their place, be made under the law, and serve in their stead. He must have a soul and body in which He was capable of suffering and being paid the just wages of His people’s sins. This explains to us that marvelous passage in Hebrews 10:5-9, the language of which is most obviously couched in covenant terms: the whole displaying so blessedly the voluntary engagement of the Son, His perfect readiness and willingness in acquiescing to the Father’s pleasure. It was at the incarnation Christ fulfilled that precious type of Himself found in Exodus 21:5. Out of love to His Lord, the Father, and to His spouse the church, and His spiritual children, He subjected Himself to a place of perpetual servitude.

3. Having voluntarily undertaken the terms of the everlasting covenant, a special economical relationship was now established between the Father and the Son‑the Father considered as the appointer of the everlasting covenant, the Son as the God‑man mediator, the head and surety of His people. Now it was that the Father became Christ’s “Lord” (Ps. 16:2, as is evident from vv. 9, 11; Mic. 5:4), and now it was that the Son became the Father’s “servant” (Isa. 42:1; cf. Phil. 2:7), undertaking the work appointed. Observe that the clause “took upon him the form of a servant” precedes “and was made in the likeness of men.” This explains His own utterance “as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do” (John 14:31; cf. 10:18;12:49). This accounts for His declaration, “My Father is greater than I” (John, 14:28), wherein our Savior was speaking with reference to the covenant engagement which existed between the Father and Himself.

4. Christ died in fulfillment of the covenant’s requirements. It was absolutely impossible that an innocent person—absolutely considered as such—should suffer under the sentence and curse of the law, for the law denounced no punishment on any such person. Guilt and punishment are related; and where the former is not, the latter cannot be. It was because the Holy One of God was relatively guilty, by the sins of the elect being imputed to Him, that He could righteously be smitten in their stead. Yet even that had not been possible unless the spotless substitute had first assumed the office of suretyship; and that, in turn, was only legally valid because of Christ’s federal headship with His people. The sacrifice of Christ owes all its validity from the covenant: the holy and blessed Trinity, by counsel and oath, having appointed it to be the true and only propitiation for sin.

So too it is utterly impossible for us to form any clear and adequate idea of what the Lord of glory died to achieve if we have no real knowledge of the agreement in fulfillment of which His death took place. What is popularly taught upon the subject today is that the atonement of Christ has merely provided an opportunity for men to be saved, that it has opened the way for God to justly pardon any and all who avail themselves of His gracious provision. But that is only a part of the truth, and by no means the most important and blessed part of it. The grand fact is that Christ’s death was the completion of His agreement with the Father, which guarantees the salvation of all who were named in it—not one for whom He died can possibly miss heaven: (John 6:39). This leads us to consider—

5. That on the ground of Christ’s willingness to perform the work stipulated in the covenant, certain promises were made to Him by the Father: first, promises concerning Himself; and second, promises concerning His people. The promises which concerned the Mediator Himself may be summarized thus. First, He was assured of divine enduement for this discharge of all the specifications of the covenant (Isa. 11:1-3; 61:1; cf. John 8:29). Second, He was guaranteed the divine, protection under the execution of His work (Isa. 42:6; Zech. 3:8, 9; cf. John 10:18). Third, He was promised the divine assistance unto a successful conclusion (Isa. 42:4; 49:8-10; cf. John 17:4). Fourth, those promises were given to Christ for the stay of His heart, to be pleaded by Him (Ps. 89:26; 2:8); and this He did (Isa. 50:8-10; cf. Heb. 2:13). Fifth, Christ was assured of success in His undertaking and a reward for the same (Isa. 53:10, 11; Ps. 89:27-29; 110:1-3; cf. Phil.2:9-11). Christ also received promises concerning His people. First, that He should receive gifts for them (Ps. 68:18; cf. Eph. 4:10, 11). Second, that God would make them willing to receive Him as their Lord (Ps. 110:3; cf. John 6:44). Third, that eternal life should be theirs (Ps. 133:3; cf. Titus 1:2). Fourth, that a seed should serve Him, proclaim His righteousness, and declare what He had done for them (Ps. 22:30, 31). Fifth, that kings and princes should worship Him (Isa.49:7).

Finally, let it be pointed out that this compact made between the Father and the Son on behalf of the whole election of grace is variously designated. It is called an “everlasting covenant” (Isa. 55:3) to denote the perpetuity of it, and because the blessings in it devised in eternity past will endure forever. It is called a “covenant of peace” (Ezek. 34:2,5; 37:26) because it secures reconciliation with God, for Adam’s transgression produced enmity, but by Christ the enmity has been removed (Eph. 2:16), and therefore is He denominated the “Prince of Peace” (Isa. 9:6). It is called the “covenant of life” (Mal. 2:15), in contrast from the covenant of works which issued in death, and because life is the principal thing pledged in it (Titus 1:2). It is called the “holy covenant” (Luke 1:72), not only because it was made by and between the persons of the Holy Trinity, but also because it secures the holiness of the divine character and provides for the holiness of God’s people. It is called a “better covenant” (Heb. 7:22), in contrast from the Sinaitic arrangement, wherein the national prosperity of Israel was left contingent on their own works. (end quote)



London Baptist Confession of Faith, 1689:

Chapter 7: Of God's Covenant
1._____ The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
( Luke 17:10; Job 35:7,8 )
2._____ Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
( Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21; Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16; Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalms 110:3 )

3._____ This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11;6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )


Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Sovereign Grace

Certified Flunky
Jul 5, 2014
334
109
52
Right here, right now
✟43,136.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
So JM, thanks for that wonderful post. However, does it state, per Pink's words you posted, we, the elect, are an outflowing of that covenant, or are we grafted into it via grace? I agree with what was written, just not clear exactly the entire thought expressed therein. Thanks again.
 
Upvote 0

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟748,024.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
Yes, the covenant made within the Godhead will accomplish that for which it was made; to save elect sinners. Christ is our surety. His death results in the salvation of His people. I posted a link to Pink's entire work on the subject. It's lengthy but worth the read.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
Upvote 0

Sovereign Grace

Certified Flunky
Jul 5, 2014
334
109
52
Right here, right now
✟43,136.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Yes, the covenant made within the Godhead will accomplish that for which it was made; to save elect sinners. Christ is our surety. His death results in the salvation of His people. I posted a link to Pink's entire work on the subject. It's lengthy but worth the read.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
The reason I am asking this is because I am trying to take all the sappy humanism out of the gospel message. The centrality of the gospel is the cross and He who hung, bled, died, was buried for three days and nights and arose for our(the elect) justification. The gospel proclaims what God did in Christ to save sinners. To say 'Jesus had you in mind whilst He was suffering upon the cross' does a disservice to the gospel, imo, of course.
 
Upvote 0

Sovereign Grace

Certified Flunky
Jul 5, 2014
334
109
52
Right here, right now
✟43,136.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus "had us all in mind" before creation of the world,
The Father and Jesus knew how many hairs would be on our heads today (and every day)
before the universe was created.
Did Jesus stop thinking about us
when He was in the greatest part of accomplishing our salvation for us ?

What part of that would be a disservice to the gospel ?
Whilst Christ was suffering on the cross, He was suffering in our stead. Our sins were placed upon Him and God's wrath was meted out from Father to Son, as if the Son was either you or I. This shows God's impartiality towards sin and sinners. Jesus never sinned, but when He drank of that most bitter cup in Gethsamane's garden, it was our sins He ingested, became sin, and God dealt with Him thusly. That is how Christ became our propitiation[1 John 2:2]. So, whilst Christ was suffering, He was suffering before the Father on our account. To say that Christ 'had you in mind while He was suffering' is a disservice to the gospel, because He was crying out to God, asking "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
No, it is the Gospel. On the cross, When He said "Father, forgive THEM... for they know not what they do."

The whole purpose He and the Father had in the crucifixion.
Would you agree that the sacrifice of the atonement, which happened once a year, was a picture and type of the sacrifice of Christ? If you agree that it is I would ask you who was that atonement made for and to whom did it apply?
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Sorry if that is a rather poor way of wording this, but it is the best I could think of...

I ask this as I see so many times ppl saying things like 'when Jesus was on the cross, He was thinking of you', and I think that does violence to the gospel. Now, I see the word of God, the bible en toto of God's way of conveying what He has done, is doing now, and will do later, to all His creation. I see the gospel as God's way of conveying what He did in Christ, to procure salvation for those the Father gave to the Son.

Now to get to the 'nuts and bolts' of my question. I see the gospel as a covenant the Father made with the Son, and we were not in that covenant. Hold on before you call me a heretic. It is like a marriage of a wife and husband. They are the ones in that covenant and not their children, too. And marriage is a covenant with the children being an outpouring of that covenant. So I think the covenant of grace is an extension, an outpouring of the covenant betwixt God and His Son, with us, the believers, the recipients of that covenant.

Now, is this considered orthodox? Where am I wrong, if you think I am wrong above. Trust me, I have no problem being shown I am wrong.
You are correct in that the covenant was made between the Triune Godhead but it was made on behalf of the children of God according to His electing love. Christ covenanted with the Father and the Spirit to be the Surety and substitute for all those that the Father gave Him in electing love and the Father, Son and the Spirit covenanted together to bring all that the Father gave the Son and for whom He died and accomplished everlasting redemption to be brought by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe, into life and faith in Christ unto their everlasting salvation. The whole of the covenant was for the glory of the Triune God in mercy to undeserving, God hating, chosen sinners.

There are two basic themes to the Scriptures: God's glory in sovereign mercy to chosen sinners in Christ Jesus the Lord and His wonderful love for them whom He has set His heart on to do them good.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JM

Augsburg Catholic
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2004
17,361
3,628
Canada
✟748,024.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
"You are correct in that the covenant was made between the Triune Godhead but it was made on behalf of the children of God according to His electing love. Christ covenanted with the Father and the Spirit to be the Surety and substitute for all those that the Father gave Him in electing love and the Father, Son and the Spirit covenanted together to bring all that the Father gave the Son and for whom He died and accomplished everlasting redemption to be brought by the Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe, into life and faith in Christ unto their everlasting salvation. The whole of the covenant was for the glory of the Triune God in mercy to undeserving, God hating, chosen sinners.

There are two basic themes to the Scriptures: God's glory in sovereign mercy to chosen sinners in Christ Jesus the Lord and His wonderful love for them whom He has set His heart on to do them good." - twin

I second that. God's mercy toward sinners is covenantal.

jm
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
QUOTE convicted1, post: 69855584, member: 355351"]Whilst Christ was suffering on the cross, He was suffering
in our stead
. Our sins
were placed upon Him and God's wrath was meted out from Father to Son,
as if the Son was either you or I.
This shows God's impartiality towards sin and sinners. Jesus never sinned, but when He drank of that most bitter cup in Gethsamane's garden, it was
our sins
He ingested, became sin, and God dealt with Him thusly. That is how Christ became
our propitiation
[1 John 2:2]. So, whilst Christ was suffering, He was suffering before the Father
on our account.
To say that Christ 'had you in mind while He was suffering' is a disservice to the gospel, because He was crying out to God, asking "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" QUOTE
So, then, from all Scripture FIRST,
then from YOUR POST,
HOW can you think Jesus Messiah, WHO DIED FOR US, was NOT THINKING OF US ?
Do
you
think Jesus does NOT think about you/us/HIS BODY since before the creation of the world !?!?

Since JESUS MESSIAH, the LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN FOR US SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD,
CHOSE TO WILLINGLY DIE IN OUR PLACE (everyone who believes on His Name),

what makes you think ever, that it is ANY KIND of disservice to JESUS' GOSPEL FOR US,
that HE THOUGHT ABOUT US all along ?!?!
As A GOOD SHEPHERD continually has the CARE and PROTECTION OF HIS SHEEP in His thoughts.....

MOST ESPECIALLY WHEN HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR US !

(NOT like a hired hand who works for money, or for man's approval)
Certainly Jesus had His elect people on His heart when He bore our sin in His own body on the tree. But to indiscrimenately tell everyone that He had them on His mind when He died is not only a disservice to the Gospel it is a lie straight from Hell.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Jesus doesn't agree with you.
Get to know Him and the Father,
you're in for some VERY BIG SURPRISES.
Nonsense! I know Him as well as can be expected for one who has made a point of preaching Him for more than 30 years.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mikedsjr

Master Newbie
Aug 7, 2014
981
196
Fort Worth,Tx
✟17,192.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Nonsense! I know Him as well as can be expected for one who has made a point of preaching Him for more than 30 years.

Wouldn't that be the same defense TD Jakes, Kenneth Copeland or even my previous pastor could make. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance. I would cringe at anyone saying "Jesus thought of you on the cross". But egotism is what sales in church. But I would agree you understand Scripture within the biases you hold. And I don't say that with disrespect. When we all admit we have biases and willing to concede this, then we could settle in and with respect defend our biases with more open ears to hear the other person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • Like
Reactions: MWood
Upvote 0

Goodbook

Reading the Bible
Jan 22, 2011
22,090
5,106
New Zealand
Visit site
✟78,875.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Calvinism rears its ugly head again.

What part of the new covenant dont you understand? Jesus meant for everyone. Both jews (the elect ) and gentiles.

When Jesus was on the cross absolutely he was thinking of us. And he was human, he bled and died. Theres nothing sappy about that, its real flesh and blood. You cannot keep the gospel hid under a bushel and claim that it was only meant for a few people that already believed in Jesus. Thats why we proclaim it so that the world may know and come to believe in Him.
 
Upvote 0

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Wouldn't that be the same defense TD Jakes, Kenneth Copeland or even my previous pastor could make. I don't necessarily disagree with your stance. I would cringe at anyone saying "Jesus thought of you on the cross". But egotism is what sales in church. But I would agree you understand Scripture within the biases you hold. And I don't say that with disrespect. When we all admit we have biases and willing to concede this, then we could settle in and with respect defend our biases with more open ears to hear the other person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have no problem grasping others views but if my views are debatable then that is exactly what they are. I am not the least open to change my views as far as the light of the Spirit given me. If the Spirit gives me more light then that is another thing altogether. But I must be absolutely convinced that it is the Spirit not just a man's argument. If a man can argue into a certain way of thinking a man can argue you out of it. 1Cor. 2:1-5
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

twin1954

Baptist by the Bible
Jun 12, 2011
4,527
1,473
✟86,544.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
That's the same thing they all say too.
Jesus says,
Matthew 6:23
KJ21
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
ASV
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness!
AMP
But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness!
Of course I could say the same about you. I have absolutely no worries about standing before God at the judgment. If He condemns me to everlasting destruction He is only doing what is right.
 
Upvote 0