The rise of the lonely single man

[Jamdoc]

I disagree. Andrew Wommack is considered a prosperity theology proponent and he says persecution is not covered.

If at least one prosperity theology pundit says otherwise, then at it's up for debate within the prosperity theology realm and is not a settled issue. It's no fair to treat any topic as a settled issue if its a contested issue.

Currently, I do not know any prosperity theologian that says persecution is covered in this theology.
I'd be curious as to who is actually saying this or where you read this?



The prosperity theology, at face value, does not say ALL Christians are protected.

#1)
I don't know the circumstances of every Christian and how they are hearing from the Lord. Did the Lord tell the Christian to move away from the place but they ignored the Spirit and listened to their flesh and were either too lazy to get out or their heart was too much into that place they refused to listen to the Spirit telling them to leave? There are testimonies of Christians who were delivered or spared from natural disasters (ie Jimmy Swaggart comes to mind with Hurricane Katrina in that his church held up fine while other buildings around fell down, etc...).

#2)
If you are ignorant about the principles about how it works then you simply will not benefit from it.
You will not benefit from it because you do not believe it. It's not fair then to say ALL Christians.
If you think its a false gospel then you've already negated it if it could have worked for you.
That is a very strong expression of unbelief.
I can say that even Jesus can't perform as many miracles when there is unbelief. (Matt 13:58)
Unbelief is the enemy of faith. A Christian in unbelief has no better protection than an atheist with the same thing. An atheist is a strong unbeliever. A Christian who doesn't have faith that Jesus could heal them or provide for their needs and calls it a false gospel has a different type of unbelief. But in the end, both the Christian that thinks that way, and the atheist have to use the same doctor, or die from the same disaster, so on the surface there is no difference. Whereas prosperity theology would say there is a difference. Egypt suffered the plagues, but the Jews were spared in their space.
The Death Angel killed the first born in Egypt, but spared the Israelites because of the Lamb's blood on their doorpost. However, here is the kicker. If an Israelite refused to follow the instructions and did not put a the Lamb's blood on their doorpost, guess what would have happened? Their firstborn would have died too. There are certain principles that if not followed will affect the believers too just like in the Passover example and you have to follow the order that directed by the bible, not your own denomination or mindset.

#3) Sometimes Christians get a word from the Lord that they will be protected.

For example, my mother got a word that we would be protected from covid and will not need a vaccine, or vaccines were dangerous. No member of this household caught covid. We stood on Psalm 91.
Other Christians died from covid. Our household was protected.

Paul got a word that people everyone on the ship would survive. (Acts 27).



Read the post I have made above.



Andrew Wommack treated this subject, and I'm sure you can find information on there that can reconcile what you are seeing as a paradox. You might be mistaken to think the affliction was an illness/sickness, it may have been something else.

The other aspect, is lets take your argument. I do know one thing. This affliction protected his soul lest he be exalted beyond measure (2 Cor 12:7). This was a check on his spiritual pride from the spiritual revelation he received about God, revelation that neither of us have and are reading about in the Bible. His ministry may have lost its potency or effectiveness so there was a good reason for it being there.

The Lord sometimes raises people to pray for other people, but because people ignore the call and burden of the Spirit to pray for others, then bad things happen to people that could have been avoided. The real problem is people should listen to the Spirit of God more and it would be a better world period. Full stop.

 

[Juan777]

Nah. I could be posting videos too of prosperity theology. What do YOU have to say about what I wrote?

 

[Jamdoc]

Nah. I could be posting videos too of prosperity theology. What do YOU have to say about what I wrote?

The point is, God doesn't promise that in this life you will get everything you want. You are promised tribulation in this world instead.

 

[Juan777]

The point is, God doesn't promise that in this life you will get everything you want. You are promised tribulation in this world instead.

I quoted allot of what Jesus has said and you have not addressed anything that Jesus said. It sounds like Jesus is saying on thing and you are saying another. I would go by what Jesus says rather then what men say.

 

[Jamdoc]

I quoted allot of what Jesus has said and you have not addressed anything that Jesus said. It sounds like Jesus is saying on thing and you are saying another. I would go by what Jesus says rather then what men say.

You have to know the audience Jesus was addressing in each thing, a lot of it was addressed to specific apostles, not all believers.

There was also things that Jesus gave promises regarding to specific times and specific people. When Jesus sent disciples 2 by 2, God provided for all of them, they didn't need to bring anything with them. They lacked nothing. But in the upper room discourse, Jesus pointed this out, and then told them, that the world was going to change, that when He left, they would need to buy a sword.

What was promised to all believers is eternal life, forgiveness of sins, the holy spirit, resurrection, and tribulation and persecution in this life.

 

[Juan777]

You have to know the audience Jesus was addressing in each thing, a lot of it was addressed to specific apostles, not all believers.

There was also things that Jesus gave promises regarding to specific times and specific people. When Jesus sent disciples 2 by 2, God provided for all of them, they didn't need to bring anything with them. They lacked nothing. But in the upper room discourse, Jesus pointed this out, and then told them, that the world was going to change, that when He left, they would need to buy a sword.

What was promised to all believers is eternal life, forgiveness of sins, the holy spirit, resurrection, and tribulation and persecution in this life.

Jesus said the hairs on our head are numbered, and we are more valuable to God than the birds are, and as He provides for the birds food to eat, so He provides for us. As He clothes the lillies of the valley, so He meets our needs so we are clothed as well.

Your portrayal sounds contrary to this as it portrays a God who is just interested in saving your soul, and then too bad for you for the rest of your life until you meet Him in heaven, just doesn't have that vibe. It's not how the Jesus of the Bible is sounding.

Jesus said He came to give men more abundant life. He says that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. That sounds like a promise to me.

The Bible says that God does not withhold good things to those who walk uprightly. It also says that he who finds a wife, findeth a good thing, and receives favour from the Lord. So finding a wife is a reward from God to walking uprightly. Now, you might say this is in the OT. But you have a better covenant in the NT. How would you say there are better promises in an inferior covenant? That doesn't add up.

This is apart from the many other verses that I've directly quoted from Jesus in my other posts that you have ignored and did not reply to. (ie mountain moving faith, believing you receive when you pray, all things are possible to him/her who believes etc... sounds like bold promises to me)

 

[Niels]

Jesus said He came to give men more abundant life. He says that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. That sounds like a promise to me.

The Bible says that God does not withhold good things to those who walk uprightly. It also says that he who finds a wife, findeth a good thing, and receives favour from the Lord. So finding a wife is a reward from God to walking uprightly. Now, you might say this is in the OT. But you have a better covenant in the NT. How would you say there are better promises in an inferior covenant? That doesn't add up.

This is apart from the many other verses that I've directly quoted from Jesus in my other posts that you have ignored and did not reply to. (ie mountain moving faith, believing you receive when you pray, all things are possible to him/her who believes etc... sounds like bold promises to me)

Psalm 84:11
"For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless."

- A sun provides light, and a shield helps protect
- Taken in context: Those in God's house, whose strength is in Him, are blessed as such
- We live in a fallen world. Don't fault God when you see the good suffer and the evil thrive. It isn't God who attacks or withholds from the upright.

Should marriage be interpreted as a sign that somebody's walk is blameless? No. Just look at the marital status of evil men in human history.

Yes, he who finds a wife finds a good thing. However, sometimes it's better to not find one. A wife isn't a reward. A good may be a blessing, if she's a godly woman and he's a godly man, but a bad one is a curse.

Proverbs 12:4
"A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but she who causes shame is like decay in his bones."


To cite another Proverb:

Proverbs 19:1
Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails.


And, in conclusion, another verse to help provide context for the original passage:

Psalm 84:10
Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus said the hairs on our head are numbered, and we are more valuable to God than the birds are, and as He provides for the birds food to eat, so He provides for us. As He clothes the lillies of the valley, so He meets our needs so we are clothed as well.

Your portrayal sounds contrary to this as it portrays a God who is just interested in saving your soul, and then too bad for you for the rest of your life until you meet Him in heaven, just doesn't have that vibe. It's not how the Jesus of the Bible is sounding.

Jesus said He came to give men more abundant life. He says that the devil comes to steal, kill and destroy. That sounds like a promise to me.

The Bible says that God does not withhold good things to those who walk uprightly. It also says that he who finds a wife, findeth a good thing, and receives favour from the Lord. So finding a wife is a reward from God to walking uprightly. Now, you might say this is in the OT. But you have a better covenant in the NT. How would you say there are better promises in an inferior covenant? That doesn't add up.

This is apart from the many other verses that I've directly quoted from Jesus in my other posts that you have ignored and did not reply to. (ie mountain moving faith, believing you receive when you pray, all things are possible to him/her who believes etc... sounds like bold promises to me)

The abundant life is not this one. It is the resurrection, eternal life.

and I have a feeling that when Jesus was talking about moving mountains He was not talking literally, as when He talked about eating His flesh in John 6, or that He could give water to a woman at the well and she'd never thirst again in John 4, or the talking about being born again to Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus was talking about spiritual there. Born of spirit, and realizing that He is the water of life, so putting your faith in Him, He'll resurrect you, and on the earth, you won't thirst again.
cause I'm pretty sure every Christian still gets physically thirsty in this life, and I'm pretty sure I don't care WHAT word of faith preachers claim, nobody has actually moved a mountain.

So does God give the holy spirit, yes
does God give you the power and authority to speak things into existence and actually physically move mountains around? No.

 

[Juan777]

The abundant life is not this one. It is the resurrection, eternal life.

What makes you so sure about that? How about the other part of the passage: the thief cometh not but to kill, steal or destroy, will that be happening in heaven too? Why even include that if that does not apply to this life? At least try to be consistent here.

and I have a feeling that when Jesus was talking about moving mountains He was not talking literally,

We can agree that He was not talking about literal mountains, but metaphorically, meaning you can speak to a problem, sickness, poverty and it will go away. That is still not literal in the sense of actual mountains.

as when He talked about eating His flesh in John 6, or that He could give water to a woman at the well and she'd never thirst again in John 4, or the talking about being born again to Nicodemus in John 3. Jesus was talking about spiritual there.

Right, and words are spiritual as well. Death and Life are in the power of the tongue. By your words you are justified and by your words you are condemned. The tongue is the most dangerous thing, who can contain it? With the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Born of spirit, and realizing that He is the water of life, so putting your faith in Him, He'll resurrect you, and on the earth, you won't thirst again.
cause I'm pretty sure every Christian still gets physically thirsty in this life, and I'm pretty sure I don't care WHAT word of faith preachers claim, nobody has actually moved a mountain.

Again, no word of faith preacher confirms that's a literal mountain and is a straw man argument.

So does God give the holy spirit, yes
does God give you the power and authority to speak things into existence and actually physically move mountains around? No.

Again you are making a hyperbolic claim about the word of faith and making a straw man argument. This is not helpful to this discussion. When we get more nuanced about it then you are really not able to defend your position that's why you need to rely on hyperbole. This is why you tend to ignore other passages I've quoted from Jesus and focus on straw man arguments.

 

[Juan777]

Psalm 84:11
"For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless."

- A sun provides light, and a shield helps protect
- Taken in context: Those in God's house, whose strength is in Him, are blessed as such
- We live in a fallen world. Don't fault God when you see the good suffer and the evil thrive. It isn't God who attacks or withholds from the upright.

Should marriage be interpreted as a sign that somebody's walk is blameless? No. Just look at the marital status of evil men in human history.

Yes, he who finds a wife finds a good thing. However, sometimes it's better to not find one. A wife isn't a reward. A good may be a blessing, if she's a godly woman and he's a godly man, but a bad one is a curse.

Proverbs 12:4
"A wife of noble character is her husband's crown, but she who causes shame is like decay in his bones."


To cite another Proverb:

Proverbs 19:1
Many are the plans in a person’s heart, but it is the LORD’s purpose that prevails.


And, in conclusion, another verse to help provide context for the original passage:

Psalm 84:10
Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

Of course, I'm divorced, right? If its a cold consolation, Jesus said if you marry again after you divorce, you are committing adultery. It's like being incel and also backed by the Bible so you don't have feel bad about it and is the only decent thing about it. If Jesus is cool with me being incel then I should be too because, after all, it's adultery not to be right?

Getting serious about the issue at hand. From a word-of-faith perspective, it's God's will for people to be coupled up in the terms that you have said. Its right to believe God for a godly wife and when it happens and you know its of God, then its a good thing. It takes faith to believe God that something like that can happen when you are in a dry-spell that feels like its forever. Do you have faith?

 

[Jamdoc]

What makes you so sure about that? How about the other part of the passage: the thief cometh not but to kill, steal or destroy, will that be happening in heaven too? Why even include that if that does not apply to this life? At least try to be consistent here.

It's an abundant life we have purchased for us, even if we do not find the realization of it in this life. Remember, Jesus tells us to deny ourselves, and pick up our cross and follow Him in this life, and talked about basically hating your family if necessary to follow Him.
You forsake everything in some cases, even your own happiness.
That is one thing I forsake, happiness, everything I've ever dreamed of happening for myself, including things like a wife and family.

We can agree that He was not talking about literal mountains, but metaphorically, meaning you can speak to a problem, sickness, poverty and it will go away. That is still not literal in the sense of actual mountains.

No, He wasn't doing that either, does it mean you can overcome challenges, yes, namely sin.
because trying to repent of sin without Him is like trying to move a mountain, you can't do it.

Right, and words are spiritual as well. Death and Life are in the power of the tongue. By your words you are justified and by your words you are condemned. The tongue is the most dangerous thing, who can contain it? With the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You have the relationship wrong. God is not a familiar that obeys my magic spells that I conjure up in unintelligible gibberish "tongues". He is the creator, we are the creation. He has all power, we have none and we are not in a position to enforce OUR will on God.
Whenever Jesus made promises about God's provision it was always what was within God's will, and God's will is not always for you to be healthy, wealthy, married, safe, or happy.

God's will for Stephen right after He got the holy spirit was for Stephen to be stoned to death.
God's will for His own begotten Son was to be betrayed, captured, mocked, beaten, and nailed to a cross to die for our sin. Jesus even prayed that the Father would find another way, He sweat blood. Do you think He wanted to do it and was happy about it? No He did so obediently to the will of the Father, against His own will, and through excruciating suffering.

Again you are making a hyperbolic claim about the word of faith and making a straw man argument. This is not helpful to this discussion. When we get more nuanced about it then you are really not able to defend your position that's why you need to rely on hyperbole. This is why you tend to ignore other passages I've quoted from Jesus and focus on straw man arguments.

It's because and honestly, neither of us really do, you don't understand the relationship between you and God. God is not something you have authority to command, you're not respecting the sovereignty of God.
now for my part, I will admit, though I understand the sovereignty, severity, and wrath of God, I am not really able to understand the Love of God. Without much personal experience I can only go off of the bible, you can have an academic knowledge of a subject from reading a book but you won't really know it.

 

[Juan777]

It's an abundant life we have purchased for us, even if we do not find the realization of it in this life.

You mean He has purchased for us? Cautiously agreed.

Remember, Jesus tells us to deny ourselves, and pick up our cross and follow Him in this life, and talked about basically hating your family if necessary to follow Him.
You forsake everything in some cases, even your own happiness.

This has been debated on other threads as to whether this applies to all believers, or a subset of believers who are more dedicated than other believers, or a subset of those who are called for a specific mission. Remember as much as Paul was a missionary that went through the impossible to reach people for Christ, do you really believe every Christian was like him? Of course not! He has a specific assignment, but not every believer has, especially of that magnitude. A soldier can not entangle themselves in the affairs of life. People, like Demas forsook Paul and choose the world.

So I would say the jury is still out about that.

That is one thing I forsake, happiness, everything I've ever dreamed of happening for myself, including things like a wife and family.

That is not honest. For one I have the same issues you do in not having a gf so if that is your idea of forsaking happiness then you are not doing anything that I have not done.
There are many people who are sick and in the hospital. So allot of people have forsook happiness too on that definition. As you can see that version does not add up. To make that claim is how people cope with hard circumstances but that is Stolkhome syndrome, not forsaking happiness.

That is why I say I am incel rather than celibate. I refuse to do this Stockholm syndrome thing. Of course I do not choose not to be happy and refuse to make myself feel better about it by tricking myself that I want that. Word of faith more honest in that regard as it does now allow me to resign to my fate, at least not use the bible to do so.

No, He wasn't doing that either, does it mean you can overcome challenges, yes, namely sin.
because trying to repent of sin without Him is like trying to move a mountain, you can't do it.

You have to do some mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion. The clear face reading of the passage does not read like that. Lets even assume your point, you dont talk to your sins and tell it to go away. That does not add up. You said you are a Baptist. Are you worried about losing your salvation? Your belief is one you are born again you sealed and bound for heaven? You seem to be rather preoccupied about sin and repentance if you are part of that denomination.

You have the relationship wrong. God is not a familiar that obeys my magic spells that I conjure up in unintelligible gibberish "tongues". He is the creator, we are the creation. He has all power, we have none and we are not in a position to enforce OUR will on God.

I find that response extremely disrespectful as there are other Christians on here who have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I fear you have a religious spirit and are talking contrary. There are also other Christians on here who are word of faith adherents. Who are you to say that only your brand of Christianity is valid and others are wrong? That is not how this works.

Going back to point, no I do not command God because that is not scriptural. This is something you are making up. I resent that insinuation that you feel that way about what I have previously wrote the bible says about words and it mischaracterizes what I said. Commanding the devil to leave you alone is not commanding God.

Whenever Jesus made promises about God's provision it was always what was within God's will, and God's will is not always for you to be healthy, wealthy, married, safe, or happy.

And yet Jesus healed all who came to Him. So you are saying the Pharisees were right about Him? At least they did not believe its God will to heal as they were Jesus' most voc critica.

God's will for Stephen right after He got the holy spirit was for Stephen to be stoned to death.
God's will for His own begotten Son was to be betrayed, captured, mocked, beaten, and nailed to a cross to die for our sin. Jesus even prayed that the Father would find another way, He sweat blood. Do you think He wanted to do it and was happy about it? No He did so obediently to the will of the Father, against His own will, and through excruciating suffering.

These are straw men arguments. I already wrote my position on previous posts so you are ignoring points I had made earlier.

It's because and honestly, neither of us really do, you don't understand the relationship between you and God. God is not something you have authority to command, you're not respecting the sovereignty of God.

I disagree. Why do you think God is allowing me to say what I am saying if I am not respecting the sovereignty of God? See two can play clichee talking point game.

now for my part, I will admit, though I understand the sovereignty, severity, and wrath of God, I am not really able to understand the Love of God.

This is what I know from your previous posts.

 

[Juan777]

Hey @Jamdoc, you want a gf? Come to Toronto. You'll likely get an Asian gf. No matter how you look like, as long as you are white, you can't be single here because there will always be an Asian girl more desperate for being with a white guy, no matter how he looks. Probably the best advice you'll ever get here.

 

[Niels]

Of course, I'm divorced, right? If its a cold consolation, Jesus said if you marry again after you divorce, you are committing adultery. It's like being incel and also backed by the Bible so you don't have feel bad about it and is the only decent thing about it. If Jesus is cool with me being incel then I should be too because, after all, it's adultery not to be right?

Incel is a loaded term. It seems more appropriate for worldly guys who hate women than for Christians (and others) who are more focused on the right kind of person, place, and time.

As far as remarriage goes, that's ultimately between you and God. I'd rather not offer an opinion on this beyond admitting that I don't have all the answers. It might be interesting to learn more about the specific people group Jesus was addressing when he said that. The same principles may apply to us now, but there also might be more at play here. I don't think God is legalistic. Would he say something is wrong if there wasn't an underlying practical concern at the heart of the matter? If there was, I'd want to know what it is. People probably turn things into sin through legalism as much as they look for loopholes. At least that's how it seems to me.

Getting serious about the issue at hand. From a word-of-faith perspective, it's God's will for people to be coupled up in the terms that you have said. Its right to believe God for a godly wife and when it happens and you know its of God, then its a good thing. It takes faith to believe God that something like that can happen when you are in a dry-spell that feels like its forever. Do you have faith?

Faith in God, or faith in finding a wife? Putting my faith in the latter doesn't seem wise, but I do have faith in the former. God doesn't promise that we will all find a spouse, or that life will be a bed of roses if we do. Although I'm still open to finding somebody I truly click with, a woman who ultimately loves me like I love her, the odds of that happening seem low (never married, no kids, with a compatible background, quirks, and values etc.). Although that may not happen, our greatest treasures aren't of this world.

 

[Jamdoc]

You mean He has purchased for us? Cautiously agreed.

I meant the life Jesus purchased for us, we have.

This has been debated on other threads as to whether this applies to all believers, or a subset of believers who are more dedicated than other believers, or a subset of those who are called for a specific mission. Remember as much as Paul was a missionary that went through the impossible to reach people for Christ, do you really believe every Christian was like him? Of course not! He has a specific assignment, but not every believer has, especially of that magnitude. A soldier can not entangle themselves in the affairs of life. People, like Demas forsook Paul and choose the world.

So I would say the jury is still out about that.

2 Timothy 3

12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Doesn't say some, or a subset, it says all, and all the more in our times where even the insulation of the "free" west is being eroded away.
You said you wouldn't mind being a martyr.
Well, you might not need to go to Afghanistan or Iran for that, seems you're in Canada, they're eroding away religious freedom faster than the US.

That is not honest. For one I have the same issues you do in not having a gf so if that is your idea of forsaking happiness then you are not doing anything that I have not done.
There are many people who are sick and in the hospital. So allot of people have forsook happiness too on that definition. As you can see that version does not add up. To make that claim is how people cope with hard circumstances but that is Stolkhome syndrome, not forsaking happiness.

It is honest, if my main pursuit was my own happiness I wouldn't be a Christian, I'd probably in my condition, just use drugs all the time to lose awareness of my circumstances.
Oh drugs can make you "happy" regardless of your circumstances, That's why people do them.
That's why people do hookup culture, another thing I forsook, while I have been called ugly, when I was younger there were women willing to sleep with me, and I declined it because I was convicted, it wasn't right.

before, I was able to enjoy sin, now I can't. I can't enjoy sinning, I still sin, I still mess up, and I hate when I do, why would I reveal to my own self the truth of my sin and feel shame and grief, whereas not in Christ, oh, getting drunk is fun, getting high is fun, casual sex is fun, those things can make you happy, for a season, that's why the world does them.

That is why I say I am incel rather than celibate. I refuse to do this Stockholm syndrome thing. Of course I do not choose not to be happy and refuse to make myself feel better about it by tricking myself that I want that. Word of faith more honest in that regard as it does now allow me to resign to my fate, at least not use the bible to do so.

The bible commands you to resign yourself to God's will.
and when you don't, you can be chastised.
When I did try to go my own way despite God's will being I NOT have those things, it has failed spectacularly.
Even when I have been in a situation where I was going to do a casual hookup, fornication, the conviction was so heavy, that I couldn't do it, and if the conviction wasn't enough, God changed my circumstances to make the attempt fail.... and then chastised me for the attempt after.

This is going to sound gross but I was once naked in bed with a girl and her drug dealer boyfriend I didn't know about started pounding on the door and she spontaneously started having her period. He eventually left and contented himself with smashing my tail lights. So I got pulled over and ticketed on my escape.

Fornication is for some reason a sin that God put guard rails up for me. He won't let me do it and when I choose to quench the spirit and conviction, God made sure it didn't happen anyway.

I used to think, it'd be better for me to fornicate and ask for forgiveness, than die a virgin. Now I know that is not even possible, and the lumps I have taken for the attempts, are enough that I'm not going to try again. God has ordained me be a virgin. That much I know.
I don't know particularly why when so many other Christians have histories of fornication, and adultery.
But there it is.

You have to do some mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion. The clear face reading of the passage does not read like that. Lets even assume your point, you dont talk to your sins and tell it to go away. That does not add up. You said you are a Baptist. Are you worried about losing your salvation? Your belief is one you are born again you sealed and bound for heaven? You seem to be rather preoccupied about sin and repentance if you are part of that denomination.

Everything Jesus did in His ministry was to deal with our sin, to convict us, and show that He is the only way out of it.
Baptists and even OSAS do not mean "license for sin". If you treat it like it is? That's an indication that you're not actually saved.
Sanctification should be our primary drive and desire.

I find that response extremely disrespectful as there are other Christians on here who have received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. I fear you have a religious spirit and are talking contrary. There are also other Christians on here who are word of faith adherents. Who are you to say that only your brand of Christianity is valid and others are wrong? That is not how this works.

You think you are using the gift of tongues but I can tell you truthfully you are not. Acts 2 is not about babbling ecstatic gibberish. Acts 2 was about men from Galilea speaking a bunch of real human languages that they had not learned.

Acts 2

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The gift of tongues was to be a sign and facilitate spreading the gospel to people who they didn't know the language. Without the gift of interpretation, tongues is frankly useless. Unless someone can hear the speech and understand it, and relay the message so that the church is edified, it's pointless.

and frankly, many of the manifestations that happen within the Charismatic circles... are things that happen within Hinduism and Buddhism.
Honestly I am concerned for you.

Going back to point, no I do not command God because that is not scriptural. This is something you are making up. I resent that insinuation that you feel that way about what I have previously wrote the bible says about words and it mischaracterizes what I said. Commanding the devil to leave you alone is not commanding God.

Again, watch the clouds without water series, you will see some of the absolute deranged theology of people like you mentioned Andrew Womack. Some of it is to the point of commanding God or speaking things into existence just like God. Their theology should be setting off alarm bells.

And yet Jesus healed all who came to Him. So you are saying the Pharisees were right about Him? At least they did not believe its God will to heal as they were Jesus' most voc critica.

No it simply means that it was within God's will to heal then, to establish that His Son was real and worthy of being followed, and that the message the apostles carried was real. We have record of all those things now in a complete bible and established church. We no longer need signs and wonders and have been warned by Jesus that false prophets will use signs and wonders.

I disagree. Why do you think God is allowing me to say what I am saying if I am not respecting the sovereignty of God? See two can play clichee talking point game.

The same can be asked of God allowing Atheists to dig their own hole with the things they say. Why does God allow Yuval Noah Harari to blaspheme Him over and over and over, publicly, to crowds, to sell books by the 10's of millions?
God does allow for a free will, and it is very rare that He steps in and stops someone from saying anything, such as John the Baptist's father, and He once stopped me.

 

[Juan777]

I meant the life Jesus purchased for us, we have.



2 Timothy 3


Doesn't say some, or a subset, it says all, and all the more in our times where even the insulation of the "free" west is being eroded away.
You said you wouldn't mind being a martyr.
Well, you might not need to go to Afghanistan or Iran for that, seems you're in Canada, they're eroding away religious freedom faster than the US.



It is honest, if my main pursuit was my own happiness I wouldn't be a Christian, I'd probably in my condition, just use drugs all the time to lose awareness of my circumstances.
Oh drugs can make you "happy" regardless of your circumstances, That's why people do them.
That's why people do hookup culture, another thing I forsook, while I have been called ugly, when I was younger there were women willing to sleep with me, and I declined it because I was convicted, it wasn't right.

before, I was able to enjoy sin, now I can't. I can't enjoy sinning, I still sin, I still mess up, and I hate when I do, why would I reveal to my own self the truth of my sin and feel shame and grief, whereas not in Christ, oh, getting drunk is fun, getting high is fun, casual sex is fun, those things can make you happy, for a season, that's why the world does them.



The bible commands you to resign yourself to God's will.
and when you don't, you can be chastised.
When I did try to go my own way despite God's will being I NOT have those things, it has failed spectacularly.
Even when I have been in a situation where I was going to do a casual hookup, fornication, the conviction was so heavy, that I couldn't do it, and if the conviction wasn't enough, God changed my circumstances to make the attempt fail.... and then chastised me for the attempt after.

This is going to sound gross but I was once naked in bed with a girl and her drug dealer boyfriend I didn't know about started pounding on the door and she spontaneously started having her period. He eventually left and contented himself with smashing my tail lights. So I got pulled over and ticketed on my escape.

Fornication is for some reason a sin that God put guard rails up for me. He won't let me do it and when I choose to quench the spirit and conviction, God made sure it didn't happen anyway.

I used to think, it'd be better for me to fornicate and ask for forgiveness, than die a virgin. Now I know that is not even possible, and the lumps I have taken for the attempts, are enough that I'm not going to try again. God has ordained me be a virgin. That much I know.
I don't know particularly why when so many other Christians have histories of fornication, and adultery.
But there it is.



Everything Jesus did in His ministry was to deal with our sin, to convict us, and show that He is the only way out of it.
Baptists and even OSAS do not mean "license for sin". If you treat it like it is? That's an indication that you're not actually saved.
Sanctification should be our primary drive and desire.



You think you are using the gift of tongues but I can tell you truthfully you are not. Acts 2 is not about babbling ecstatic gibberish. Acts 2 was about men from Galilea speaking a bunch of real human languages that they had not learned.

Acts 2


The gift of tongues was to be a sign and facilitate spreading the gospel to people who they didn't know the language. Without the gift of interpretation, tongues is frankly useless. Unless someone can hear the speech and understand it, and relay the message so that the church is edified, it's pointless.

and frankly, many of the manifestations that happen within the Charismatic circles... are things that happen within Hinduism and Buddhism.
Honestly I am concerned for you.

Again, watch the clouds without water series, you will see some of the absolute deranged theology of people like you mentioned Andrew Womack. Some of it is to the point of commanding God or speaking things into existence just like God. Their theology should be setting off alarm bells.



No it simply means that it was within God's will to heal then, to establish that His Son was real and worthy of being followed, and that the message the apostles carried was real. We have record of all those things now in a complete bible and established church. We no longer need signs and wonders and have been warned by Jesus that false prophets will use signs and wonders.



The same can be asked of God allowing Atheists to dig their own hole with the things they say. Why does God allow Yuval Noah Harari to blaspheme Him over and over and over, publicly, to crowds, to sell books by the 10's of millions?
God does allow for a free will, and it is very rare that He steps in and stops someone from saying anything, such as John the Baptist's father, and He once stopped me.

You think you have problems? I tried using a prostitute and I couldn't do it. I simply freaked out and could not do it. Not only that, a devil attacked me and tried to possess me and turn me into a growing zombie and I had to fight that devil for like a month before it tired and left me alone. I am afraid of them since that happened 8 years ago. I have not gone there since and like you, it's not easy to sin like that without getting hit by something.

I'll look into the rest of your post later as I'm in a rush. You have shared allot with me so I'll share my own experience. I don't get any opportunities at all of fornication and frankly, don't care about that. Drugs, I won't touch with a ten foot pole. You are thinking of the wrong types of sins that I don't care about,, lol! I didn't know you were even into those things before, my jaw is dropping. Good thing the Spirit is keeping you in the straight and narrow.

 

[Juan777]

Incel is a loaded term. It seems more appropriate for worldly guys who hate women than for Christians (and others) who are more focused on the right kind of person, place, and time.

As far as remarriage goes, that's ultimately between you and God. I'd rather not offer an opinion on this beyond admitting that I don't have all the answers. It might be interesting to learn more about the specific people group Jesus was addressing when he said that. The same principles may apply to us now, but there also might be more at play here. I don't think God is legalistic. Would he say something is wrong if there wasn't an underlying practical concern at the heart of the matter? If there was, I'd want to know what it is. People probably turn things into sin through legalism as much as they look for loopholes. At least that's how it seems to me.



Faith in God, or faith in finding a wife? Putting my faith in the latter doesn't seem wise, but I do have faith in the former. God doesn't promise that we will all find a spouse, or that life will be a bed of roses if we do. Although I'm still open to finding somebody I truly click with, a woman who ultimately loves me like I love her, the odds of that happening seem low (never married, no kids, with a compatible background, quirks, and values etc.). Although that may not happen, our greatest treasures aren't of this world.

I know what you mean. I find the term jokey though. Its like I am making light of these issues and perhaps we should anyway. Any opportunity to inject humour cant always hurt. It becomes like a soft cuss word, like covid.

 

[Jamdoc]

You think you have problems? I tried using a prostitute and I couldn't do it. I simply freaked out and could not do it. Not only that, a devil attacked me and tried to possess me and turn me into a growing zombie and I had to fight that devil for like a month before it tired and left me alone. I am afraid of them since that happened 8 years ago. I have not gone there since and like you, it's not easy to sin like that without getting hit by something.

I'll look into the rest of your post later as I'm in a rush. You have shared allot with me so I'll share my own experience. I don't get any opportunities at all of fornication and frankly, don't care about that. Drugs, I won't touch with a ten foot pole. You are thinking of the wrong types of sins that I don't care about,, lol! I didn't know you were even into those things before, my jaw is dropping. Good thing the Spirit is keeping you in the straight and narrow.

Part of my past is that sort of thing, yes, I backslid terribly, got sucked into the world even though I knew I never felt like I belonged in it, I tried anyway, there are a lot of ways I tried to feel like I "belonged" somewhere, because I never felt I belonged in the world, or in the church.
When people say that you'll just stare at Jesus and nothing else will matter and you'll just be in pure ecstasy, that is part of why I feel disappointed. Because that language to me, is like talking about drugs. I have seen that kind of reaction and experience before, and it is a high, not a life. While I linked to you a video of Pentecostal services contrasted with Hindu and Buddhist/yoga kundalini awakenings, I could do the same showing footage of rave parties of people on drugs. It is THE EXACT SAME REACTION, across all 3. The euphoria, the visions, the feeling of connection to the world and love for everyone, the physical reactions, the religious overtones of the psychedelic experience.
Have you ever wondered about Matthew 7:21-23?
There are 2 possible ways that I look at these verses, because Jesus says that those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Some people take that as you can lose your salvation from sin. I do not, because "in no wise cast out" doesn't mean "those who come to me, if they live perfectly, I won't cast them out" it means "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".
You have to look at their justification for themselves... what is their justification? Religious experiences they have had (prophecying and casting out demons) and works (works based salvation). They don't say "Lord I trust you, you died for me, I believe in you, and believe you when you say you are the way the truth and the life"
I don't have anything to contribute to my salvation except the sin that made it necessary. I don't have religious experiences, I don't have mighty works.
All I have is that I believe Jesus is the Son of God and He died for my sins.

This is a video I used to post because I found it funny. Now I find it scary.

Even the world looks at what happens in some churches and thinks "huh, that looks like a rave party"

Understand that there is even a subset of raves called Goa parties, that began on the beaches of Goa, India, which had become somewhat of a Hippie Mecca. So you have people in a region absolutely blasted with eastern mystic religion, now augmented with psychedelic drugs and music (and trust me the two go hand in hand, see the Beatles when they went from pop to more psychedelic rock, dabbling in eastern mysticism and LSD, because the mystic, religious like experiences of LSD tie RIGHT into eastern mystic religions, and ALL of those manifestations that you consider "slain in the spirit" are EXACTLY the same, just with different context and different labels). These parties have people absolutely LOADED on LSD or other strong psychedelic drugs, dancing in a religious trance like state to 150 beat per minute "psychedelic trance" for several hours on end. I've been to one, the DJ (flown out from India) played for 24 hours straight, and that is not an exaggeration. Here's another bombshell.. the most prevalent producers of psychedelic trance? Most of them are from Israel, producers like Hallucinogen, Infected Mushroom, and Astral Projection? Israeli.
Do you want to know why?
Kabbalah.
In fact, as an example:

All of it, the Word of Faith movement, Kabbalah, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufi Islam, and yes, Rave culture and Hippie culture and psychedelic drugs... operate on mysticism.
It all sets off discernment alarms.

Ultimately the promise of bliss through religious experience is disappointing, because what I want is a life and intimate relationships, not a high
I don't want to be in ecstasy despite circumstances, like being alone, that's escapism, that's drugs, even if your drug is Jesus, that's what it is, and that is not what I believe God intends for us.
I love Jesus, but I hate religion.

 

[Juan777]

Part of my past is that sort of thing, yes, I backslid terribly, got sucked into the world even though I knew I never felt like I belonged in it, I tried anyway, there are a lot of ways I tried to feel like I "belonged" somewhere, because I never felt I belonged in the world, or in the church.
When people say that you'll just stare at Jesus and nothing else will matter and you'll just be in pure ecstasy, that is part of why I feel disappointed. Because that language to me, is like talking about drugs. I have seen that kind of reaction and experience before, and it is a high, not a life. While I linked to you a video of Pentecostal services contrasted with Hindu and Buddhist/yoga kundalini awakenings, I could do the same showing footage of rave parties of people on drugs. It is THE EXACT SAME REACTION, across all 3. The euphoria, the visions, the feeling of connection to the world and love for everyone, the physical reactions, the religious overtones of the psychedelic experience.
Have you ever wondered about Matthew 7:21-23?
There are 2 possible ways that I look at these verses, because Jesus says that those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Some people take that as you can lose your salvation from sin. I do not, because "in no wise cast out" doesn't mean "those who come to me, if they live perfectly, I won't cast them out" it means "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".
You have to look at their justification for themselves... what is their justification? Religious experiences they have had (prophecying and casting out demons) and works (works based salvation). They don't say "Lord I trust you, you died for me, I believe in you, and believe you when you say you are the way the truth and the life"
I don't have anything to contribute to my salvation except the sin that made it necessary. I don't have religious experiences, I don't have mighty works.
All I have is that I believe Jesus is the Son of God and He died for my sins.

This is a video I used to post because I found it funny. Now I find it scary.

Even the world looks at what happens in some churches and thinks "huh, that looks like a rave party"

Understand that there is even a subset of raves called Goa parties, that began on the beaches of Goa, India, which had become somewhat of a Hippie Mecca. So you have people in a region absolutely blasted with eastern mystic religion, now augmented with psychedelic drugs and music (and trust me the two go hand in hand, see the Beatles when they went from pop to more psychedelic rock, dabbling in eastern mysticism and LSD, because the mystic, religious like experiences of LSD tie RIGHT into eastern mystic religions, and ALL of those manifestations that you consider "slain in the spirit" are EXACTLY the same, just with different context and different labels). These parties have people absolutely LOADED on LSD or other strong psychedelic drugs, dancing in a religious trance like state to 150 beat per minute "psychedelic trance" for several hours on end. I've been to one, the DJ (flown out from India) played for 24 hours straight, and that is not an exaggeration. Here's another bombshell.. the most prevalent producers of psychedelic trance? Most of them are from Israel, producers like Hallucinogen, Infected Mushroom, and Astral Projection? Israeli.
Do you want to know why?
Kabbalah.
In fact, as an example:

All of it, the Word of Faith movement, Kabbalah, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufi Islam, and yes, Rave culture and Hippie culture and psychedelic drugs... operate on mysticism.
It all sets off discernment alarms.

Ultimately the promise of bliss through religious experience is disappointing, because what I want is a life and intimate relationships, not a high
I don't want to be in ecstasy despite circumstances, like being alone, that's escapism, that's drugs, even if your drug is Jesus, that's what it is, and that is not what I believe God intends for us.
I love Jesus, but I hate religion.

Love your take on Matthew 7. That is all I can say. While it may sound counterintuitive to the implied meaning (ie their sins) I heard of this explanation as well.

I am not into drug experiences or esctasy and think I am more mentally escapist rather than physical escapist. (One can argue even posting on here is a form of escapism). So I cant relate to that. I do know that there are 9 fruits of the Spirit and one of those fruits is joy. I do know the bible says that the joy of the Lord is my strength. Paul writes about joy while he is in jail and dire straights and pens Phillipians. What I am saying is that it is scripturally invalid to argue against joy. I tend to have a quiet and non expressive joy most of the time.

I understand your background with drugs and counterfeit joy that the world offers but the worldly spirit and the Holy Spirit are not the same. The bible says not to quench the Spirit. You could be doing that through ignorance.

 

[Jamdoc]

Love your take on Matthew 7. That is all I can say. While it may sound counterintuitive to the implied meaning (ie their sins) I heard of this explanation as well.

I am not into drug experiences or esctasy and think I am more mentally escapist rather than physical escapist. (One can argue even posting on here is a form of escapism). So I cant relate to that. I do know that there are 9 fruits of the Spirit and one of those fruits is joy. I do know the bible says that the joy of the Lord is my strength. Paul writes about joy while he is in jail and dire straights and pens Phillipians. What I am saying is that it is scripturally invalid to argue against joy. I tend to have a quiet and non expressive joy most of the time.

I understand your background with drugs and counterfeit joy that the world offers but the worldly spirit and the Holy Spirit are not the same. The bible says not to quench the Spirit. You could be doing that through ignorance.

The problem is, what is seen within charismatic circles, IS the same as what is seen in the world in those other mystical religions and lifestyles.
I believe that God may have allowed me to go prodigal and experience that to give me discernment, letting me see something VERY OBVIOUSLY NOT IN HIM, so that I would not be deceived that this is of God but is of sin, and now I know what to recognize in religious fervor that does not come from Him. In some cases, I fear it is demonic possession, but in most cases, I believe it is the flesh, the flesh desiring so badly to have a religious uplifting experience that it goes along with the act and fulfills it in a religious setting.
It would have perhaps been more dangerous for me to have fallen into word of faith, where the occult aspects are not as obvious without discernment. A religion in the world, people will believe those manifestations as true divine experiences, but drugs for the most part.. you know that's not of God (although in some cultures, and within the hippies, they are considered sacraments, even in the ancient world, that's the word for sorcery in Revelation, pharmakeia, using drugs to try to commune with God). I can tell you I almost fell into that trap. Realizing that Ecstasy and LSD produce the same religious feelings as those times earlier in my life where I felt "filled with the Spirit" set off alarms. That maybe what I'd experienced was not of God, and I needed to mark and avoid Churches with those kinds of practices.
Understand that much ecumenicism is in fact based on this fact. That the manifestations of what the hindus or sufi muslims or jews who practice kabbalah experience, is the same manifestations witnessed within some in some Christian churches, particularly the Pentecostals/Charismatic/Word of Faith/New Apostolic Reformation and within the Catholic Church at times, and yes, probably some Baptist churches as well. Some within particularly the post Vatican II Catholic Church see this and declare that we all worship the same God in different ways.
But that's not Biblical, that's not Jesus declaring He is the way, the truth, and the life, and NO MAN comes to the Father but through Him.

So what does the Holy Spirit actually do?
John 14

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus' truth, and points you to scripture, that is what He does, that is how He teaches you.
If the bible is the Sword of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the swordmaster that teaches you to fight.