The rise of the lonely single man

[VCR-2000]

Part of my past is that sort of thing, yes, I backslid terribly, got sucked into the world even though I knew I never felt like I belonged in it, I tried anyway, there are a lot of ways I tried to feel like I "belonged" somewhere, because I never felt I belonged in the world, or in the church.
When people say that you'll just stare at Jesus and nothing else will matter and you'll just be in pure ecstasy, that is part of why I feel disappointed. Because that language to me, is like talking about drugs. I have seen that kind of reaction and experience before, and it is a high, not a life. While I linked to you a video of Pentecostal services contrasted with Hindu and Buddhist/yoga kundalini awakenings, I could do the same showing footage of rave parties of people on drugs. It is THE EXACT SAME REACTION, across all 3. The euphoria, the visions, the feeling of connection to the world and love for everyone, the physical reactions, the religious overtones of the psychedelic experience.
Have you ever wondered about Matthew 7:21-23?
There are 2 possible ways that I look at these verses, because Jesus says that those who come to Him He will in no wise cast out. Some people take that as you can lose your salvation from sin. I do not, because "in no wise cast out" doesn't mean "those who come to me, if they live perfectly, I won't cast them out" it means "him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out".
You have to look at their justification for themselves... what is their justification? Religious experiences they have had (prophecying and casting out demons) and works (works based salvation). They don't say "Lord I trust you, you died for me, I believe in you, and believe you when you say you are the way the truth and the life"
I don't have anything to contribute to my salvation except the sin that made it necessary. I don't have religious experiences, I don't have mighty works.
All I have is that I believe Jesus is the Son of God and He died for my sins.

This is a video I used to post because I found it funny. Now I find it scary.

Even the world looks at what happens in some churches and thinks "huh, that looks like a rave party"

Understand that there is even a subset of raves called Goa parties, that began on the beaches of Goa, India, which had become somewhat of a Hippie Mecca. So you have people in a region absolutely blasted with eastern mystic religion, now augmented with psychedelic drugs and music (and trust me the two go hand in hand, see the Beatles when they went from pop to more psychedelic rock, dabbling in eastern mysticism and LSD, because the mystic, religious like experiences of LSD tie RIGHT into eastern mystic religions, and ALL of those manifestations that you consider "slain in the spirit" are EXACTLY the same, just with different context and different labels). These parties have people absolutely LOADED on LSD or other strong psychedelic drugs, dancing in a religious trance like state to 150 beat per minute "psychedelic trance" for several hours on end. I've been to one, the DJ (flown out from India) played for 24 hours straight, and that is not an exaggeration. Here's another bombshell.. the most prevalent producers of psychedelic trance? Most of them are from Israel, producers like Hallucinogen, Infected Mushroom, and Astral Projection? Israeli.
Do you want to know why?
Kabbalah.
In fact, as an example:

All of it, the Word of Faith movement, Kabbalah, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sufi Islam, and yes, Rave culture and Hippie culture and psychedelic drugs... operate on mysticism.
It all sets off discernment alarms.

Ultimately the promise of bliss through religious experience is disappointing, because what I want is a life and intimate relationships, not a high
I don't want to be in ecstasy despite circumstances, like being alone, that's escapism, that's drugs, even if your drug is Jesus, that's what it is, and that is not what I believe God intends for us.
I love Jesus, but I hate religion.

You seem to be saying two different things. You want to have this and that, but you also say you want to acknowledge that Jesus wants you to resign yourself. It's just confusing is all.

 

[Jamdoc]

You seem to be saying two different things. You want to have this and that, but you also say you want to acknowledge that Jesus wants you to resign yourself. It's just confusing is all.

We don't always get to do whatever we want. Jesus wanted the Father to find another way to forgive sin than for Him to go to the cross and die. But in the end Jesus resigned Himself to obeying the Father.
That is our example, that is who we try to be like.
Resigning doesn't mean we stop wanting something else for ourselves, resigning means that you submit to God's sovereignty and authority IN SPITE of what you want.

 

[Juan777]

So what does the Holy Spirit actually do?
John 14

John 15


The Holy Spirit testifies of Jesus' truth, and points you to scripture, that is what He does, that is how He teaches you.
If the bible is the Sword of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the swordmaster that teaches you to fight.

As you again have ignored a scripture reference I've made in a previous post, I'll remind you of it again:

The fruits of the Spirit include joy:

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which fruits of the Spirit do you see yourself manifesting in your life?


Paul says that Christians are to Rejoice in the Lord always, and pray about everything. Sounds almost like a command in its own right:

Philippians 4:4-8

4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.


You know that book Philippians. The same book that says:

Philippians 4:19

19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus


Romans 14:17

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

I'm sorry, I can't buy your "joyless" Christianity (on Earth) because you had some bad exposure when you backslid and now are painting everything under the same brush, like it's some drug. How you account for these verses then?

The reason you are ignoring select verses I keep bringing up throughout the discussion is because they don't fit your theological framework or narrative. I'm not dishonest in this way because I do not ignore scripture. The scripture reference you provided does not negate that one of the fruit's of the Holy Spirit is joy. If you can't differentiate between counterfeit joy and real joy then its an issue of discernment, not an issue of joy.

That being said, you've raised some other interesting points. But it sounds like if you have any enjoyment at all in life then its a sin. Like even eating an ice cream is a sin. Looking at a sunset is wrong. God doesn't want you to be happy. He wants you to be suffering blob wanting to die? Maybe I'm making a straw man with you too now, but that's how it sounds like. It's like God wants everyone to be depressed and sad and holds a carrot out in the next life. It doesn't add up with those verses above and the overall character of God.

 

[Juan777]

We don't always get to do whatever we want. Jesus wanted the Father to find another way to forgive sin than for Him to go to the cross and die. But in the end Jesus resigned Himself to obeying the Father.
That is our example, that is who we try to be like.
Resigning doesn't mean we stop wanting something else for ourselves, resigning means that you submit to God's sovereignty and authority IN SPITE of what you want.

If you are going to go there then Jesus commanded everyone to witness. You don't want to witness because of how you feel you look then you don't want to witness. You are therefore not submitting to God's authority by refusing to witness to others. Also if you are not doing anything for the Lord other than having a pity-party then I'd point you to the parable of the ten talents, and what happened to the servant who buried his/her talent in the ground and where that servant ended up. So you see, you can't say you don't want to pursue happiness, feel miserable about yourself and then decide you don't want to witness because you don't look happy and therefore feel like can't convince anyone to want to be saved?

 

[Jamdoc]

If you are going to go there then Jesus commanded everyone to witness. You don't want to witness because of how you feel you look then you don't want to witness. You are therefore not submitting to God's authority by refusing to witness to others. Also if you are not doing anything for the Lord other than having a pity-party then I'd point you to the parable of the ten talents, and what happened to the servant who buried his/her talent in the ground and where that servant ended up. So you see, you can't say you don't want to pursue happiness, feel miserable about yourself and then decide you don't want to witness because you don't look happy and therefore feel like can't convince anyone to want to be saved?

I do witness to others, where I find places I can do so anonymously or through accounts that do not have my personal info or appearance in them.
That way "me" does not tarnish the message.

 

[Jamdoc]

As you again have ignored a scripture reference I've made in a previous post, I'll remind you of it again:

The fruits of the Spirit include joy:

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Which fruits of the Spirit do you see yourself manifesting in your life?


Paul says that Christians are to Rejoice in the Lord always, and pray about everything. Sounds almost like a command in its own right:

Philippians 4:4-8

4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice.

5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.


You know that book Philippians. The same book that says:

Philippians 4:19

19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus

Yes I'm aware of this but apparently it does not mean your needs to be happy. I survive, I'm provided for, Paul said we should be content with food and raiment. The most basic needs just to survive.

But here's the thing. Paul, and many others, are motivated by glory.
I am not.
glory does.. basically nothing for me. In fact to me, just exalting and praise and glory is .. vanity to me, lip service, ego inflation. Someone can praise you and then not want anything to do with you otherwise.
That is part of why I just feel so out of place like I don't belong anywhere. Because everyone else seeks glory but glory to me.. valueless.
The fact that heaven is always depicted in terms of glory?
Probably the #1 reason I feel incompatible with it, and with other people. Because I don't value this thing that drives them so much.
That is what robs me of joy. The thing promised... glory.. means nothing to me but means everything to everyone else.
It makes me feel like I'm not even worthy to be human that I don't value this thing that apparently motivates everyone else. It's like we talk two different languages and will never understand each other.

Every other Christian longs to hear "well done my good and faithful servant" and for me.... praise? nothing.

Romans 14:17

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

I'm sorry, I can't buy your "joyless" Christianity (on Earth) because you had some bad exposure when you backslid and now are painting everything under the same brush, like it's some drug. How you account for these verses then?

Joy is not the same as happiness.

The reason you are ignoring select verses I keep bringing up throughout the discussion is because they don't fit your theological framework or narrative. I'm not dishonest in this way because I do not ignore scripture. The scripture reference you provided does not negate that one of the fruit's of the Holy Spirit is joy. If you can't differentiate between counterfeit joy and real joy then its an issue of discernment, not an issue of joy.

The problem is you validate yourself through a religious experience that is very much like a drug, and discernment tells me, it has more to do with Hinduism, Kabbalah, Sufi Mysticism, and Psychedelia, than it does Jesus.

That being said, you've raised some other interesting points. But it sounds like if you have any enjoyment at all in life then its a sin. Like even eating an ice cream is a sin. Looking at a sunset is wrong. God doesn't want you to be happy. He wants you to be suffering blob wanting to die? Maybe I'm making a straw man with you too now, but that's how it sounds like. It's like God wants everyone to be depressed and sad and holds a carrot out in the next life. It doesn't add up with those verses above and the overall character of God.

No, not everyone, that is why the Lord blesses some, my isolation is not a common experience. That is why I was shut up, voice caught in my throat, when I wanted to speak that the Lord had let me down when a pastor asked that question. Because the rest of the Church, would not be able to relate, isolation even from other Christians has been a part of my life ever since I was saved. I never got into actual fistfights before I was saved. After I was saved? People attacked me physically. One could have killed me with a rock about the size of a brick to the back of my head. I still have the scar from that. In fact I think that's where one of my lesions started. I sometimes get "icepick" headaches originating from the place where the scar is.

and let's remember that part of my mood can literally be because I have lesions in my brain, scar tissue. That can effect a lot. I sometimes go into a room and forget why I went there, sometimes have headaches, both migraines that last for hours (with preceding visual disturbances before them, I had those ever since I was a teen), and the ice pick headaches that last for miliseconds. By the time I say ow they're done.. originating from the same place, the back of my head where I was hit and probably should have fractured my skull, Maybe the Lord protected me there, despite allowing me to be hit in the first place.
Sometimes I feel sensations in my body that are not really there.

It wouldn't be much of a leap of logic that brain damage like that can affect everything regarding my mood.

 

[Juan777]

Yes I'm aware of this but apparently it does not mean your needs to be happy. I survive, I'm provided for, Paul said we should be content with food and raiment. The most basic needs just to survive.

Agreed.

But here's the thing. Paul, and many others, are motivated by glory.
I am not.
glory does.. basically nothing for me. In fact to me, just exalting and praise and glory is .. vanity to me, lip service, ego inflation. Someone can praise you and then not want anything to do with you otherwise.
That is part of why I just feel so out of place like I don't belong anywhere. Because everyone else seeks glory but glory to me.. valueless.
The fact that heaven is always depicted in terms of glory?
Probably the #1 reason I feel incompatible with it, and with other people. Because I don't value this thing that drives them so much.
That is what robs me of joy. The thing promised... glory.. means nothing to me but means everything to everyone else.
It makes me feel like I'm not even worthy to be human that I don't value this thing that apparently motivates everyone else. It's like we talk two different languages and will never understand each other.

Every other Christian longs to hear "well done my good and faithful servant" and for me.... praise? nothing.

This sounds like a personal thing with you and I don't quite understand how this is bothering you. I don't normally hear about this from other people or Christians and I don't know how to respond to that. I don't question things that undermine functionality because it is too inefficient. There are many different moving parts and you can end up tripping yourself when you question things like this. Some things are better just going along with the program. Maybe this is a bit meta, but I'm trying to piece together your thinking process.

Joy is not the same as happiness.

Agreed.

The problem is you validate yourself through a religious experience that is very much like a drug, and discernment tells me, it has more to do with Hinduism, Kabbalah, Sufi Mysticism, and Psychedelia, than it does Jesus.

I don't know what you are talking about. You've lost me. You are sounding solipsist. Only what is in your own mind is true regardless of objective reality and to someone listening on the outside, you are bringing up claims that I have never made or validated myself.

No, not everyone, that is why the Lord blesses some, my isolation is not a common experience.

I'm isolated too, so I guess it's common between us.

That is why I was shut up, voice caught in my throat, when I wanted to speak that the Lord had let me down when a pastor asked that question.

You mean about glory?

Because the rest of the Church, would not be able to relate, isolation even from other Christians has been a part of my life ever since I was saved. I never got into actual fistfights before I was saved. After I was saved? People attacked me physically. One could have killed me with a rock about the size of a brick to the back of my head. I still have the scar from that. In fact I think that's where one of my lesions started. I sometimes get "icepick" headaches originating from the place where the scar is.

I'm sorry to hear that people attacked you physically and I understand, whatever I might think about your arguments, that you have a hard life.

Anyone attacking you is wrong and nobody should experience that. However, people are bad to other people regardless if they are saved or not.

 

[Juan777]

I do witness to others, where I find places I can do so anonymously or through accounts that do not have my personal info or appearance in them.
That way "me" does not tarnish the message.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I hope our Lord will appreciate our efforts despite keeping ourselves anonymous because we really try to do something to please Him.

I was banned from boards for talking about Jesus too much and was only allowed back on if I stopped talking about Jesus so much. Because I blab too much I don't even think I'm making a good witness in that regard because I'm too transparent about my own situation and I think I'm ruining my own testimonies.

Perhaps you have more wisdom than I do in regards to witnessing to others. You have to be discreet with these things.

Do you think you could witness to a lady on OnlyFans? There was this girl who had covid and I offered to pray for her to get better. This might be an extreme way of introducing light into darkness. I know I'm anonymous there, does not have my personal information or picture, which is why I'm there (not now though as I stopped it Easter this past year as I didn't feel my intentions were pure). How would you witness to these people?

 

[Jamdoc]

This sounds like a personal thing with you and I don't quite understand how this is bothering you. I don't normally hear about this from other people or Christians and I don't know how to respond to that. I don't question things that undermine functionality because it is too inefficient. There are many different moving parts and you can end up tripping yourself when you question things like this. Some things are better just going along with the program. Maybe this is a bit meta, but I'm trying to piece together your thinking process.

It's what I always hear from every pastor, glory glory glory glory glory glory glory until it bleeds out of your ears.
To me, NOTHING is more vain than ego stroking.
What appealed to me in Jesus was a hint of someone who cared about things other than glory, and their own pleasure. Jesus was moved by compassion for others. Jesus valued the intent behind people's actions and words more than the action itself at times. Jesus hated hypocrisy. These are things I find value in the personhood of Christ.
I guess I should have been more specific. The Church is motivated by glory, the world is motivated by selfish pleasure.
I desire neither.
The church desires pleasure that they believe derives from glory to be most specific.

I desire love, fellowship, acceptance, belonging, intimacy, all things that I lack.[/quote]

I don't know what you are talking about. You've lost me. You are sounding solipsist. Only what is in your own mind is true regardless of objective reality and to someone listening on the outside, you are bringing up claims that I have never made or validated myself.

You said it a few posts ago, that the validation of your faith is your religious experiences, speaking in tongues etc.
I am warning that those things are not only not validating of faith at all, they can in fact, be deceiving.

I'm isolated too, so I guess it's common between us.

Well considering your expectations of witnessing I'm not sure if you understand my level of isolation. I don't live somewhere where I can just catch public transportation and be in a busy shopping area just witnessing to people on the street, I live outside of town and lack my own transportation, I can maybe walk about 200 feet at a stretch, even with crutches.
I don't have people regularly coming to visit me, I have no friends locally since I moved. Since Covid and my car dying (at basically the same time) I have not even had physical access to Church.

You mean about glory?

No I mean in experience. For them, God has opened doors, provided opportunities, for me God has closed doors, and opportunities failed. Perhaps they were bad opportunities, I don't know. For instance, I was getting a job offer at a hospital in New York, then Super Storm Sandy hit them, and they had to do a hiring freeze. Another job offer, the HR suddenly came up with an impossible requirement for me being that it'd be my first job in the field. They wanted a reference of a supervisor that had been my supervisor for 5 concurrent years. This could literally only be met if I had been doing a career change, not as a new graduate from college. The manager who I'd interviewed with was in tears having to tell me this, because she knew it was impossible to meet.
For them in the church, God has put people in their life that have been blessings for them, for me, I have been taken out of other people's lives, and set alone.
For them, there has been a financial need, and God met it for them. For me, I had an emergency, the VA sent me to a different hospital, but then did not record that they'd transferred me rather than having the ambulance take me to the VA, thousands of dollars in ambulance and emergency room bills got sent to collections because I could not afford them, and about a year after I graduated from college I became disabled, tens of thousands of dollars of student debt that I cannot pay off. Laughably, Joe Biden may be a bit of a blessing personally to me, because much of that student debt will get forgiven, or at least, it should. The way things go for me, something can still mess up and I'll still be on the hook for all of it, being disabled has not discharged them, because my disability is reevaluated every 3 years and it requires 5 year evaluations to qualify for discharge from student loan debt due to disability.
For them, they had been healed of a sickness, or maybe their children had been healed of a sickness. For me? instead of being healed when I prayed about it, I was saddled with another Chronic autoimmune disease.

am I not supposed to see these things as let downs?
am I supposed to see these things as blessings? as favor from the Lord?

Maybe if I valued glory.
Because Jesus said those who humble themselves will be exalted.
But I don't want to be exalted.

 

[VCR-2000]

We don't always get to do whatever we want. Jesus wanted the Father to find another way to forgive sin than for Him to go to the cross and die. But in the end Jesus resigned Himself to obeying the Father.
That is our example, that is who we try to be like.
Resigning doesn't mean we stop wanting something else for ourselves, resigning means that you submit to God's sovereignty and authority IN SPITE of what you want.

So in other words, you can't get what you want, not even in paradise for the rest of eternity.

 

[VCR-2000]

The only reason I will ever "hate my family" is if they all did something that was irredeemable and made me feel angry.

I do relate to Jesus hating hypocrisy a lot.

 

[Juan777]

I did not have a Pentecostal religious experience where I speak in tongues. I have a word faith concept. You speak mindlessly assume by faith you are speaking another language and voula you are.speaking in other tongues. As I only understand English I cant disprove I am not potentially talking another language that I am not aware of.. All I know is my heart is pure and I dont have to understand and the Lord will accept it as worship as He looks at the heart and intent of words I dont have to comprehend. You can try it.

 

[Jamdoc]

So in other words, you can't get what you want, not even in paradise for the rest of eternity.

Hey as I've been told, heaven isn't about you it's about Christ, and then they doubled down with "stop being selfish and wanting to be happy" I dunno.

 

[VCR-2000]

Hey as I've been told, heaven isn't about you it's about Christ, and then they doubled down with "stop being selfish and wanting to be happy" I dunno.

So are you saying you sympathize with me?

 

[Juan777]

Tongues is not "angel languages" or "prayer languages" tongues is other human languages according to Acts 2.
Yes, 1 Corinthians has Paul talking about languages of angels but he was speaking in Hyperbole, talking about how spiritual gifts aren't the end all be all especially without love and charity.

That is a debatable issue. Even if we go for human language there are thousands upon thousands of language and dialects. There are extinct languages from civilisations that lived before. Therefore, assuming there are only European languages and Chinese this is not all languages (which is fair to assume you have a narrow understanding of human languages since you made a statement like that).

Let's analyze a little bit of 1 Corinthians on spiritual gifts. First off, Paul spends most of 1 Corinthians 12, explaining different spiritual gifts, pointing out that not everyone is going to have the same ones (so right off the bat, don't think that every Christian has to speak in tongues to have the holy spirit, that is a mistake, and the DESIRE to have a religious experience that validates their belief, believing that if they "speak in tongues" it means their faith is real.. can overwhelm everything else). He also points out that while people in the church have different spiritual gifts they are all one body, so every spiritual gift is to serve and edify the body as a whole, at no time is a spiritual gift just for yourself.

I will respond by quoting scripture:

1 Cor 14:2 " For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Let's look at the first 3 verses, and understand the hyperbole that Paul is talking about, Paul is not claiming to speak in the tongues of Angels, any more than he is claiming he is omnipotent through the gift of prophecy, or the ability to literally move mountains or that he has given away everything and offered his body up to be burned as a sacrifice. He's saying even if he does these extreme things, that if he does not have charity (some translations translate charity as love), then it's worthless.
In fact that first verse, talking about tongues. he says that without love, and serving others through this gift it's the same as a clanging gong or cymbal, which to the Corinthians, in their pagan practices, they "spoke in tongues" in their temple to the Greek/Roman pantheon, and it was announced it was time to speak in tongues by gongs and cymbals. Paul is saying that if you're speaking in tongues just to serve yourself, then it's the same as what the pagans do.

Paul also mentioned if he bestowed all his goods to feed the poor, and give his body to be burned on the same level as speaking in other tongues.

Therefore, if you are going to challenge speaking in tongues in this manner, you also have to conclude giving to the poor is just as wrong because it's a "religious experience", as well as giving your body to be burned (ie or claiming you are suffering for the glory of God) is also a "religious experience".

You can't cherry pick one concept without affecting the rest of the verse. The point is that you need to express the love of Christ otherwise it comes across as hollow.

The point is sign gifts were to establish the church, but they were not intended to be a continuing thing within the church once established.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

Again, we were warned that false prophets would use signs and wonders to try to convince of their authenticity.

I disagree with you.

I have already mentioned in previous posts that Jesus said that certain signs will follow believers.
These signs include healing the sick, casting out devils and others.

Paul also presented the Gospel, not with just persuasive words, but with signs and wonders.

Now onto 1 Corinthians 14, which I believe delivers a very sound point.
For the gift of tongues to work someone has to have the gift of interpretation, otherwise your speech means nothing to nobody and does not do anything except bring attention to yourself. Now mind you, what Paul talks about when he says prophecying he does not mean he wants everyone to get special revelation from God about the future. Rather the other use for the word prophesy is to preach, particularly preaching the word of God. So what Paul is saying is that rather than speaking in tongues he wants everyone to preach the word of God, to teach doctrine, to edify each other through scripture.

So examine yourself, when you believe you are speaking in tongues.. is it edifying anyone when nobody can understand what you say? You don't even understand it yourself. So what is it doing aside from giving you a "religious experience" that draws attention to yourself? Until you're speaking in a language that can be understood, you're not exhibiting the biblical gift of tongues. Because the gift of tongues was tongues of men used to spread the gospel, and edify the church.

In a corporate setting, such as a church, then yes. In a private setting, then verse 2 applies.
I quoted 1 Cor 14:2 above which applies for private settings. How do you draw attention to yourself if you are by yourself?

I will tell you, most pagan religions have experiences of speaking in ecstatic babble, and that's what it is, linguists have observed Christians "speaking in tonuges' and said, while it's structured to imitate a language, they are not an actual language, if it is the "language of angels" then angels talk like babies, just babbling inanely.

Of course, the devil has a counterfeit for almost everything God has. That's why the Bible refers to the devil as an angel of light.

Your logic has holes in it because it's like saying, because counterfeit money exists then all money is counterfeit. No -- the fact that a counterfeit exists means there a "real" version of it.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is a debatable issue. Even if we go for human language there are thousands upon thousands of language and dialects. There are extinct languages from civilisations that lived before. Therefore, assuming there are only European languages and Chinese this is not all languages (which is fair to assume you have a narrow understanding of human languages since you made a statement like that).

I will respond by quoting scripture:

1 Cor 14:2 " For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries."

Paul's point holds that if you're speaking a language that nobody understands you're benefitting nobody but yourself. You're speaking to the air.

Paul also mentioned if he bestowed all his goods to feed the poor, and give his body to be burned on the same level as speaking in other tongues.

Therefore, if you are going to challenge speaking in tongues in this manner, you also have to conclude giving to the poor is just as wrong because it's a "religious experience", as well as giving your body to be burned (ie or claiming you are suffering for the glory of God) is also a "religious experience".

You can't cherry pick one concept without affecting the rest of the verse. The point is that you need to express the love of Christ otherwise it comes across as hollow.

I never did, and you completely missed the point.
That's why I said it's hyperbole and connected it all.
Doing all these religious exercises is worthless if it lacks love.
Paul was elevating love and diminishing spiritual gifts, because many Christians seek spiritual gifts to validate their faith, like they use it to "prove" they're more spiritual than another person. It's an exercise in self exaltation.

Like yourself, brethren in the church at Corinth had too much desire and placed too much emphasis on sign gifts. 1 Corinthians 12-14 is all about downplaying sign gifts and promoting love and teaching and edifying the church, putting sign gifts in appropriate context

The point is, if one brother in the Church was speaking in tongues and another brother understood the tongue they were speaking, don't be envious of those two for those sign gifts, because if the message was given and interpreted, it edified the entire body of Christ, not just 1 member or another. That's the point, edification of the church. That is why speaking "languages" that nobody can interpret is unprofitable, nobody is edified but possibly yourself through your own feeling of validation of your faith and feeling that you're "more spiritual" than others. Paul specifically refuted that, and would rather people preach the word of God, in a language everyone can understand so that everyone in the body is edified.

Where does it say that in the Bible?

1 Corinthians 14

21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

It was a sign to spread the gospel, it is not something that is really to be used within the church with believers. It's relatively pointless vs preaching the Word of God and doctrine.

I disagree with you.

I have already mentioned in previous posts that Jesus said that certain signs will follow believers.
These signs include healing the sick, casting out devils and others.

Paul also presented the Gospel, not with just persuasive words, but with signs and wonders.

In a corporate setting, such as a church, then yes. In a private setting, then verse 2 applies.
I quoted 1 Cor 14:2 above which applies for private settings. How do you draw attention to yourself if you are by yourself?

Of course, the devil has a counterfeit for almost everything God has. That's why the Bible refers to the devil as an angel of light.

Your logic has holes in it because it's like saying, because counterfeit money exists then all money is counterfeit. No -- the fact that a counterfeit exists means there a "real" version of it.

The real version of the gift of tongues involved speaking human languages that were not learned. Acts 2 demonstrates this very clearly.

What it is to you, is a coping mechanism. You basically said it yourself earlier, that you feel better about yourself if you feel more spiritual if you are "baptized in the spirit and start speaking in tongues".

You don't have a wife, which everyone knows is favor from the Lord, so you seek to validate favor from the Lord in other ways, namely through religious experience.

MGTOW is also a coping mechanism for a lack of relationship with women they basically sour grapes the whole thing and treat themselves as more enlightened men for not needing the companionship that God intended.

But really you should compare the biblical apostolic gifts vs the supposed apostolic gifts within the word of faith movement.

Note that in 2020 many Charismatic/Word of Faith people prophesied Donald Trump's victory in the election, or even after he lost they prophesied that he'd be president anyway somehow. Kenneth Copeland "blew away" covid 19 and declared it over.. that aged terribly too.

When God gives prophecy... it happens. It's not these failed predictions.

 

[Juan777]

Paul's point holds that if you're speaking a language that nobody understands you're benefitting nobody but yourself. You're speaking to the air.



I never did, and you completely missed the point.
That's why I said it's hyperbole and connected it all.
Doing all these religious exercises is worthless if it lacks love.
Paul was elevating love and diminishing spiritual gifts, because many Christians seek spiritual gifts to validate their faith, like they use it to "prove" they're more spiritual than another person. It's an exercise in self exaltation.

Like yourself, brethren in the church at Corinth had too much desire and placed too much emphasis on sign gifts. 1 Corinthians 12-14 is all about downplaying sign gifts and promoting love and teaching and edifying the church, putting sign gifts in appropriate context

The point is, if one brother in the Church was speaking in tongues and another brother understood the tongue they were speaking, don't be envious of those two for those sign gifts, because if the message was given and interpreted, it edified the entire body of Christ, not just 1 member or another. That's the point, edification of the church. That is why speaking "languages" that nobody can interpret is unprofitable, nobody is edified but possibly yourself through your own feeling of validation of your faith and feeling that you're "more spiritual" than others. Paul specifically refuted that, and would rather people preach the word of God, in a language everyone can understand so that everyone in the body is edified.



1 Corinthians 14


It was a sign to spread the gospel, it is not something that is really to be used within the church with believers. It's relatively pointless vs preaching the Word of God and doctrine.



The real version of the gift of tongues involved speaking human languages that were not learned. Acts 2 demonstrates this very clearly.

What it is to you, is a coping mechanism. You basically said it yourself earlier, that you feel better about yourself if you feel more spiritual if you are "baptized in the spirit and start speaking in tongues".

You don't have a wife, which everyone knows is favor from the Lord, so you seek to validate favor from the Lord in other ways, namely through religious experience.

MGTOW is also a coping mechanism for a lack of relationship with women they basically sour grapes the whole thing and treat themselves as more enlightened men for not needing the companionship that God intended.

But really you should compare the biblical apostolic gifts vs the supposed apostolic gifts within the word of faith movement.

Note that in 2020 many Charismatic/Word of Faith people prophesied Donald Trump's victory in the election, or even after he lost they prophesied that he'd be president anyway somehow. Kenneth Copeland "blew away" covid 19 and declared it over.. that aged terribly too.

When God gives prophecy... it happens. It's not these failed predictions.

The church (as a building, not the redeemed) contains both believers and unbelievers. Tongues are still a sign to unbelievers who are inside the church. There is no one church you can comfidently say all members are right with God.

What do you do with your time? I mean I can argue that everything you are doing is a coping mechanism. Your belief system is a coping mechanism. Whatever you are doing is a coping mechanism. An atheist would say that our religion is a coping mechanism for a sad life (as men in modern society). Are you going to make the same arguments atheists use? They will say prayer is a coping mechanism? If we apply your logic for tongues then they would actually be right. Incel-tv will say our belief that worldly Chads are going to hell is a religious blackpill cope. I am sure that makes you feel better about it too (as indicated by your previous posts of people who enjoy blessings in this life but go to hell in the next, etc...). Its silly to use the bible to bolster an arguement that makes atheists sound correct if you follow the logical path. If an atheist looked at your life they would say you are coping. So dont get so low to use ammunition of unbeliever mindsets because its so corrosive it will eat at you too.

 

[Jamdoc]

The church (as a building, not the redeemed) contains both believers and unbelievers. Tongues are still a sign to unbelievers who are inside the church. There is no one church you can comfidently say all members are right with God.

What do you do with your time? I mean I can argue that everything you are doing is a coping mechanism. Your belief system is a coping mechanism. Whatever you are doing is a coping mechanism. An atheist would say that our religion is a coping mechanism for a sad life (as men in modern society). Are you going to make the same arguments atheists use? They will say prayer is a coping mechanism? If we apply your logic for tongues then they would actually be right. Incel-tv will say our belief that worldly Chads are going to hell is a religious blackpill cope. I am sure that makes you feel better about it too (as indicated by your previous posts of people who enjoy blessings in this life but go to hell in the next, etc...). Its silly to use the bible to bolster an arguement that makes atheists sound correct if you follow the logical path. If an atheist looked at your life they would say you are coping. So dont get so low to use ammunition of unbeliever mindsets because its so corrosive it will eat at you too.

You're missing the point, and that is what you are experiencing, is not in line with the gift of tongues shown in Acts and 1 Corinthians.
It's something else.

That is why I call it a coping mechanism.
If you were actually experiencing the gift of tongues as shown in Acts 2, I wouldn't be saying that it is a coping mechanism but a miracle.
But that's not what's happening.

 

[Juan777]

You're missing the point, and that is what you are experiencing, is not in line with the gift of tongues shown in Acts and 1 Corinthians.
It's something else.

That is why I call it a coping mechanism.
If you were actually experiencing the gift of tongues as shown in Acts 2, I wouldn't be saying that it is a coping mechanism but a miracle.
But that's not what's happening.

I think that crosses the line to call any expression of faith a coping mechanism. The approach you are taking sounds contrary to faith and is like a cousin of an atheistic mind-set where there is either never enough evidence to make a satisfactory conclusion because at the core of it, matters of faith are not provable that way, and/or it has to be verified empirically. It doesn't change the fact that the way you have attacked me on that issue is not dissimilar to an actual atheist looking at my life and challenging me to prove that Jesus is real and is not a coping mechanism. Bringing some Bible verses into it does not change the fact that the spirit of your approach sounds similar to that.

I have not attacked you, but I feel that I'm just posting to defend myself and this discussion is going nowhere and everywhere....and guess what, WE ARE STILL SINGLE. So it's not even helping there.

 

[Jamdoc]

I think that crosses the line to call any expression of faith a coping mechanism. The approach you are taking sounds contrary to faith and is like a cousin of an atheistic mind-set where there is either never enough evidence to make a satisfactory conclusion because at the core of it, matters of faith are not provable that way, and/or it has to be verified empirically. It doesn't change the fact that the way you have attacked me on that issue is not dissimilar to an actual atheist looking at my life and challenging me to prove that Jesus is real and is not a coping mechanism. Bringing some Bible verses into it does not change the fact that the spirit of your approach sounds similar to that.

I have not attacked you, but I feel that I'm just posting to defend myself and this discussion is going nowhere and everywhere....and guess what, WE ARE STILL SINGLE. So it's not even helping there.

No but this is something more dangerous than being single.
Far more.
What I am doing is comparing the experiences purported to the biblical standard.
It doesn't match.
It is not meant as an attack, but as a call for discernment.