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The Rich Merchants in the True Structuring of the Revelation

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Douggg

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Jerry, do know what an erroneous presumptuous question is ? That's what your question is.

My answer is the same, as posted in my post #34.

The little horn person of Daniel 7 and 8, and the transgression of desolation vision of him is time of the end.


Daniel 8:16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Zao is life

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Bear in mind that

* Only (1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; and (2) the kings of the earth; and (3) the harlot

are accused of fornication in the Revelation.

* Jesus rules over the 'kings of the earth' (Revelation 1:5), and Babylon the Great rules over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18).

This (seems to) speak of the faithful and the unfaithful kings of the earth when we also bear in mind that the Revelation makes a thesis-antithesis comparison between New Jerusalem and Babylon the Great:

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." (Revelation 21:9)

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 17:1).

New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).

The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

The kings of the earth that committed fornication with Babylon the Great and wept and wailed over her demise (Revelation 18:9) can hardly be the same as the 10 kings who will hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire (Rev 17:16).

The harlot is seated on many waters, which represent people, nations, tribes and tongues (Revelation 17:15), so she is catholic with a small c, (because catholic means universal - I'm not referring to the church going by that name).

So the beast is the world, its systems and merchants that carry a (the) part of the church that will play the harlot, just like Jerusalem did in the past.

I agree that the beast that was and is not is before the 6th beast. I believe he is foreshadowed by Antoichus IV Epiphanes, and the symbols of the lion, the leopard and the bear (Revelation 13:2) I believe are meant to make us think about the former empires of that region that are mentioned in Daniel 7.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes came up from among those later kings mentioned in Daniel 7, and he was the 8th king of the Seleucid Empire (the kings of the North), which was in a constant power struggle with the Ptolemiac Egyptian kingdom (the kings of the South).

These two empires emerged as the dominant forces in the post-Alexander the Great Greek Empire. Antiochus IV exalted himself to the position of Jupiter/Zeus, "father of the gods" or "king of the gods".

I believe that what is written about the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is meant to make us think about both Judas Iscariot (the only other person to be called the son of perdition in the New Testament) AND Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and I believe that what is written in Daniel 12 is meant to project forward to Revelation 17 and Revelation13, and also to Revelation 10.

I believe these are all types/antitypes meant to give us a fuller understanding.

Revelation 17 doesn't give us much to go on with regard to the identity of the first 5 kings/kingdoms - but Revelation 13:2 gives us a clue.

So I think that the kings of the earth ruled over by Babylon the Great who commit fornication with her and weep and wail over her destruction aare not the same as the 10 kings of the beast who will destroy Babylon the Great.

The beast ascending out of the abyss is the 8th king and is of the first seven. Which one? I don't believe it's the 6th kingdom either, because it is implied that he already "was and is not" by the time John received the Revelation.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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You're funny. Revelation 17:9-11 affirms the eighth head "was, and is not" while the sixth king "is." That makes him one of the five that are fallen. You still haven’t explained to us how a contemporary leader of the EU comes before Claudius? Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?
 
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Douggg

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I’ve been quite clear the little horn, and the sea beast represents the same thing, the papacy.
The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice and commit the transgression of desolation, at the time of the end.

Explain how the papacy is going to fulfill that prophecy.

Are you claiming that a future or present pope is going to be the Antichrist ?
 
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Douggg

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Revelation 17:9-11 affirms the eighth head "was, and is not" while the sixth king "is."

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The eighth king follows the seventh king. The seventh king, not the sixth king, when he comes, must continue a short space. The short space is the 42 months in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 17:11 is not just "was, and is not"...... but "was, and is not, even he is". Goes along with what it says about him in Revelation 17:8b.

: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I have to stop you at Jezebel being “accused” of fornication. Here is what the text states,

thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication (Revelation 2:20).

She is not “accused” of fornication. She is the cause of the fornication.

And as to Jesus ruling over “the kings of the earth,” at the same time Babylon the Great rules over them is post or amillennialism. As a premillennialist, I believe Christ sits on “his” throne when he returns (Matthew 25:31).
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Right, the eighth head is the one that revives, but it says he “was” while the sixth “is.” You’re lost on that detail. This makes the eighth head come before the sixth, as one of the five that are fallen, not the seventh.

Again, you still haven’t explained how a contemporary leader of the EU comes before Claudius. Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius. Again, how does the future head of the EU come before the emperor Claudius of ancient times?
 
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Zao is life

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What is a false prophetess who causes God's people to eat food sacrificed to idols in your opinion? A faithful woman?
 
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Zao is life

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And as to Jesus ruling over “the kings of the earth,” at the same time Babylon the Great rules over them is post or amillennialism. As a premillennialist, I believe Christ sits on “his” throne when he returns (Matthew 25:31).
Does Revelation 1:5 say that Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth? If not, who is their ruler, according to you?
Does Revelation 17:18 say that Babylon the Great reigns over the kings of the earth? If not, what does it say, according to you?

Do the 10 kings of the beast weep and wail over the demise over the harlot whom they destroyed? Or is it the kings of the earth weeping and wailing over her?

PS: It has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Premill or Amil. It's talking about the faithful kings of the earth ruled by Jesus and the unfaithful kings of the earth committing fornication with Babylon the Great, who reigns over them. Babylon the Great the fornicating harlot reigns over the unfaithful kings of the earth instead of Jesus reigning over them, as He does over the faithful kings of the earth

- and we're talking about things that are to take place before the millennium.
 
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Douggg

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Revelation 17:9-10 says the eighth head “was” before the sixth, which you say is Claudius.
No, it doesn't. It says the eighth king is of the seven. King seven is the one who continues for the short space as king eight, the beast.
 
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Douggg

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Right, the eighth head is the one that revives, but it says he “was” while the sixth “is.”
Jerry, here is the text...

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

King 7 (the other is not yet come) is the one who will continue the short space as king 8. It has nothing to do with king 6.
 
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Marilyn C

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The `is,` relates to the context, and that is just before the 10 kings give their rule to the A/C, (in the middle of the trib.) Those chapters are about the time of the end of the Gentiles ruling.
 
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Marilyn C

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Apparently, those rebuilding Babylon don`t know that it shouldn`t rise.
 
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Marilyn C

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Too much neglect of history and how the papacy fulfills the beast that rises from the sea.
The Papacy does NOT control ALL religions. Remember the harlot is the mother of all prostitutes. The RCC is only one of many religions.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Agreed that Satan's influence was acting behind all the beasts as kingdoms. As the Prince of the kingdoms of this world, Satan's deception working behind the scenes sought to disrupt God's plans for the nations - to no avail, ultimately.

The Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 is not to be confused with the other Sea Beast of Revelation 13. They are different Beasts, even if they share some similar features as counterparts of each other.

The Scarlet Beast John said was "ABOUT TO arise...and go into destruction"...soon after, in John's days (Rev. 17:8). The Scarlet Beast had once existed before John was writing, but as he wrote Revelation, that Scarlet Beast kingdom was not then in existence at the time. However, it was soon "about to arise" to existence once more in John's days, and then also, soon after that, to "go into destruction" - heads, horns, harlot, and all.

That Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness was once in existence as the independent kingdom of Israel, established for a duration of about 80 years by the hard-won victories of the Maccabees. But that independent kingdom of Israel was lost when it came under tribute to Roman rule by Pompey in 63 BC. This is why the disciples asked Christ if the time had come in Acts 1:6 to "restore again the kingdom to Israel". The time for that restored kingdom would come when Israel cast off their Roman governance in AD 66 under the Zealot uprising - once again establishing a sovereign kingdom of Israel.

This Scarlet Beast / independent kingdom of Israel would not last long, however. In AD 70, it was destroyed, as John had predicted back in AD 59/60 was "about to" happen.

The seven "kings" on this Scarlet Beast are not monarchs as such. They are the "kings of the earth", which scripture tells us are the high priests of the land of Israel. Those particular "seven kings" were the seven and the eighth high priests of the corrupt house of Annas, who served one after another between the years of AD 6 until AD 66.

Five of these high priest "kings of the earth" had already "fallen" in death by the time John was writing (Annas, Eleazar, Caiphas, Jonathan, and Matthias). One high priest, Theophilus ben Annas, was still living, and the 7th had not yet been appointed high priest as of the time John was writing in AD 59/60. When that 7th high priest king did come into office (Ananus ben Annas, in AD 63), it would only be for a "short space" of 3 months before he was deposed for overstepping the limits of his authority.

Following Ananus, that deposed 7th high priest, the eighth high priest "king" was a grandson of Annas - Mattathias ben Theophilus - who was "of the seven" because he was of the house and lineage of Annas. Mattathias as the eighth high priest from Annas' family in power in AD 66 was ALSO Israel's titular leader as the "Scarlet Beast", which re-emerged to existence again in AD 66 as the independent kingdom of Israel via the Zealot rebellion.

Neither Mattathias nor the Scarlet Beast lasted beyond that AD 70 year. Both had gone into destruction by then.

The Scarlet Beast's 10 "horns" (which had been given power as kings for one brief "hour" with the Scarlet Beast) are listed by Josephus as the 10 generals who were given authority by Jerusalem to prepare the various regions of Israel for the expected attack by Rome in retaliation for the Zealot rebellion (Wars 2.20.4). These 10 chosen generals "hated the harlot" which Jerusalem had become by her high priests working in collusion with Rome to retain their position and the flow of temple riches into their own pockets. Anyone who was suspected of being a Roman sympathizer became a target for the Zealots' hatred, who held control of Jerusalem from late AD 66 until early AD 70.
 
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Douggg

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You did not say who the Scarlet beast is.

The Scarlet beast is "_____________________" (fill in the blank)
 
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You did not say who the Scarlet beast is.

The Scarlet beast is "_____________________" (fill in the blank)
I did, but you probably missed it in all the verbiage I usually post.

The Scarlet Beast as the independent kingdom of Israel "Was" in existence (after the Maccabean victories), then "Is not" (after Pompey's putting them under tribute to Rome in 63 BC), then once again "Is" when the independent kingdom of Israel began operating as a sovereign nation again (after the AD 66 Zealot rebellion had cast off their Roman governance).

This fluctuating pattern of existence for the Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness (a Judean landscape setting) is totally different than the continuous 666-year history of the other Revelation 13 Sea Beast, as of the time when John was writing Revelation in AD 59/60.
 
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Douggg

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I guess I did not get it. I missed it, as you also wrote...

"This Scarlet Beast / independent kingdom of Israel would not last long,"

I started a new thread, to see how others would answer that question.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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I could, and it would be based on the history of what the papacy has already done. But as I said, futurists neglect history, so they cannot properly interpret prophecy. I will say that your misapprehension of the prophecy is conjecture, hyperbole, and nothing more.
 
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