The Return of My Ex Nihilo Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Scripture nether confirms nor denies that explicitly, so where are you getting it?

Best answer ever:

 

[Shemjaza]

Best answer ever:

Special pleading and begging the question... it's not particularly profound.

 

[AV1611VET]

Special pleading and begging the question... it's not particularly profound.

Did you watch it?

Those who understood clapped.

 

[Shemjaza]

Did you watch it?

Those who understood clapped.

I did watch it.

Those who already share the faith clapped.

I'm unconvinced because it assumes the existence of God's attributes as a justification for his existence... it isn't logically sound.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm unconvinced because it assumes the existence of God's attributes as a justification for his existence...

Um ... he was answering the question as to where God came from?

So it was okay for the person asking Ken to assume God exists, but Mr Hovind can't answer accordingly?

The man asking the question is assuming God is confined within His creation.

Kent is using what you call "unsound logic" to show God would have to be outside of His creation.

And the audience clapped -- as did I.

 

[Shemjaza]

Um ... he was answering the question as to where God came from?

So it was okay for the person asking Ken to assume God exists, but Mr Hovind can't answer accordingly?

The man asking the question is assuming God is confined within His creation.

Kent is using what you call "unsound logic" to show God would have to be outside of His creation.

And the audience clapped -- as did I.

It's unsound logic because the response to how does a spiritual God create the Universe is to say that he can because he's God with God's appropriate attributes... it's not an explanation, it's a description.

 

[AV1611VET]

It's unsound logic because the response to how does a spiritual God create the Universe is to say that he can because he's God with God's appropriate attributes... it's not an explanation, it's a description.

Again ... did you watch the video?

You said you did, but ... well ...

There was no question about how God created the universe.

The question was where God came from.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Best answer ever:

But he does not support ex nihilo. Time, matter and space have their origin in God.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I did watch it.

Those who already share the faith clapped.

I'm unconvinced because it assumes the existence of God's attributes as a justification for his existence... it isn't logically sound.

Unconvinced of what? That God exists outside of time and space?

 

[AV1611VET]

But he does not support ex nihilo. Time, matter and space have their origin in God.

From AI Overview:

The belief that time, space, and matter originate from God is often associated with the concept of creationism and is a core tenet of theistic religions, including Christianity and Islam. It posits that God, as a transcendent being, is the ultimate source and sustainer of the universe, bringing everything into existence through an act of creation.

So far it agrees with you.

But then it goes on to say ...

Here's a more detailed explanation:

Creationism:

This belief system asserts that the universe and all life were created by God, often described as "ex nihilo" (out of nothing), rather than evolving from pre-existing matter.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

From AI Overview:

The belief that time, space, and matter originate from God is often associated with the concept of creationism and is a core tenet of theistic religions, including Christianity and Islam. It posits that God, as a transcendent being, is the ultimate source and sustainer of the universe, bringing everything into existence through an act of creation.

So far it agrees with you.

But then it goes on to say ...

Here's a more detailed explanation:

Creationism:

This belief system asserts that the universe and all life were created by God, often described as "ex nihilo" (out of nothing), rather than evolving from pre-existing matter.

We seem to have either have creatio ex nihilo or creatio ex materia.

But I actually opt for a 3rd possibility eminationism. In the 3rd century it was rejected by most Jews, Christians, and Muslims. But we have come a long way in understanding the universe since then. It seem to me that eminationism is the only way to reconcile immanence and transcendence. It is basically a version of process theology which deserves a more careful consideration. Creation doe snot come from nothing. It comes from God.

 

[Shemjaza]

Again ... did you watch the video?

You said you did, but ... well ...

There was no question about how God created the universe.

The question was where God came from.

And the answer is simply the timelessness trait... while ascribing time dependent activities like "creating".

It's a description of a trait that is labelled as necessary, then special pleading it's possibility.

Unconvinced of what? That God exists outside of time and space?

Of anything. A unsound argument is as useless as a demonstration of a true thing as it is of a false one.

If I claim the day's sky is blue because my coffee cup is blue, it's still an unsound argument despite the conclusion being correct.

 

[AV1611VET]

And the answer is simply the timelessness trait... while ascribing time dependent activities like "creating".

It's a description of a trait that is labelled as necessary, then special pleading it's possibility.

This is what happens, folks, when our education system truncates God out of the picture.

It leaves in its wake people who can't understand even basic theology.

 

[sjastro]

I thought creationists might have done better instead of using a convicted criminal to make the case for creationism.

Year	Conviction	Counts / Charge Details	Sentence
2006‑07	Federal tax evasion & structuring	58 counts: payroll tax evasion, structuring, obstruction	10 years prison + $600K+ restitution
2015	Criminal contempt (linked to forfeiture)	1 contempt count	Later vacated; released in 2015
2021	Domestic violence	Assault on estranged wife	30 days jail, fine, restitution

Of course I might be engaging in a terrible strawman attack against this individual who appears to be on a money making exercise out of creationism rather than a genuine crusader in spreading the word.

Activity / Source	Description	Financial Benefit	Possible Criminal Indicators
Creation Science Evangelism (CSE)	Hovind’s primary ministry founded in 1989 in Pensacola, FL. Operated as a tax-exempt religious entity.	Income from seminars, donations, merchandise	Operated without registering as a proper nonprofit; refused to withhold taxes or report employee wages.
Dinosaur Adventure Land (DAL)	A creationist theme park in Florida used to attract supporters and raise funds.	Paid entry, sales of merchandise	Property held in church trust to avoid taxes; used unpaid labor and circumvented building codes/zoning laws.
Speaking Engagements & DVDs	Extensive traveling ministry offering lectures, debates, and video sales.	Tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars	Received in cash, allegedly structured to avoid federal reporting laws; no income tax paid on proceeds.
Sale of Creationist Materials	Hovind sold books, DVDs, seminar recordings, and merchandise promoting creationism.	Revenue via CSE store and online sales	Business profits not reported; income often routed through personal or ministry accounts.
Unreported Wages to Employees	Paid workers in cash or as “love offerings” or “missionaries.”	Saved payroll tax obligations	Convicted for willfully failing to withhold/pay employment taxes (12 counts in 2006 conviction).
Structuring of Bank Withdrawals	Withdrew >$430,000 in increments under $10,000 to evade reporting requirements.	Avoided IRS scrutiny	Convicted of 45 counts of structuring transactions to evade federal reporting requirements.
Bankruptcy Abuse and Legal Obstruction	Filed false documents in bankruptcy, made threats, filed frivolous lawsuits to resist IRS actions.	Attempted to keep assets	Convicted of obstructing the IRS (2006), including destruction of records and legal harassment tactics.
Use of Church Trusts & Sham Entities	Transferred property to “trusts” named after God (e.g., “Trust One” to “Trust Nineteen”).	Shielded assets from seizure or taxation	Alleged misuse of religious trusts to hide assets; not formally charged on this count but cited in court filings.
Mailing Campaigns to Judges and Officials	Sent letters attacking court officials and promoting “sovereign citizen” theories.	No direct profit but legal strategy	Cited in contempt and obstruction hearings as intimidation and improper interference with judicial proceedings.
Continued Online Fundraising After Conviction	While in prison and afterward, supporters raised funds for legal defense and to restart ministry.	Ongoing donations	Not inherently illegal, but questions remain over donor transparency and tax filings of new ventures.

According to the science nothing is created Ex Nihilio.

Spacetime or a vacuum can never be totally empty.

Given recent threads involving Krauss about something being created from nothing here is the science perspective. The concept of nothing is very much tied in with the modern or non classical version of a vacuum which is a quantum field in the lowest energy level. You can’t divorce a field from...

www.christianforums.com

 

[AV1611VET]

I thought creationists might have done better instead of using a convicted criminal to make the case for creationism.

Mr Hovind was rightfully applauded by the audience.

Of course I might be engaging in a terrible strawman attack against this individual who appears to be on a money making exercise out of creationism rather than a genuine crusader in spreading the word.

Mr Hovind was rightfully applauded by the audience.

According to the science nothing is created Ex Nihilio.

That's why I said in my OP:

"Here's my question:
What physical evidence would convince you this happened?
I submit there isn't any."

Put simply: science can take a hike.