The restorationist movement

[Dale]

There was no new testament in the early Church. They only had the books of the old testament.

If you're going to follow the New Testament, you have to read it and understand it.

 

[Dale]

I don't want to seem to be knocking anyone in particular, but merely by way of example, the Seventh Day Adventist movement. One of Ellen White's stated goals was to restore the church to its original form.

Ellen White's goal was to get everyone to do it her way.

In the OP, you say the Restoration movement believes in worshipping on the first day of the week. The first day of the week is Sunday. Ellen White pursued worship on Saturday, the last day of the week, with complete fanaticism.

 

[PoppyB]

When I joined may latest fellowship back in 1984 when I left the CoE in order to be baptised. It was then under the umbrella if the Bryn Jones ministry and had started with a few people who boldly broke away from the traditional churches and began to meet in each others homes - the Housechurch movement - and aimed for us to live as a Christian community as the followers of Jesus did in Acts. Having all things in common etc. It was a breath of fresh air after the stifling traditions of the Anglican church. We just followed the leading of the Holy Spirit. It was wonderful. But that was then and even the best things can change and become mundane and boring instead of exciting and life-changing. Sad and now I don't go anywhere.

 

[Halbhh]

3. Sing the liturgy
.

This one is curious, and fun, and interesting, though I'd never try to say one must or more not do it.

Hmmmm....thinking over the 7 denominations I've attended (including Lutheran and Catholic and Church of Christ, among others), it seems like we did indeed sing the liturgy sometimes in several of them. Not often, not routinely, but sometimes. But I did only attend I think 5 masses altogether, and that's probably not enough to say for sure what the routine is. But I've heard a liturgy sung in Catholic, Lutheran, and something else, I think perhaps Episcopal. It was wonderful to hear it, but I would not make the judgement it's the only way to do the liturgy.

Well....

...we can all sing together, surely. It's marvelous to I feel. We will all sing together some day.

 

[dzheremi]

When I joined may latest fellowship back in 1984 when I left the CoE in order to be baptised. It was then under the umbrella if the Bryn Jones ministry and had started with a few people who boldly broke away from the traditional churches and began to meet in each others homes - the Housechurch movement - and aimed for us to live as a Christian community as the followers of Jesus did in Acts. Having all things in common etc. It was a breath of fresh air after the stifling traditions of the Anglican church. We just followed the leading of the Holy Spirit. It was wonderful. But that was then and even the best things can change and become mundane and boring instead of exciting and life-changing. Sad and now I don't go anywhere.

Is that what restorationism is about, though? Excitement?

Whatever happened to "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" That's in the OT. Even the most 'primitive' of restorationist groups should know that one.

 

[HTacianas]

Ellen White's goal was to get everyone to do it her way.

In the OP, you say the Restoration movement believes in worshipping on the first day of the week. The first day of the week is Sunday. Ellen White pursued worship on Saturday, the last day of the week, with complete fanaticism.

Well, I said in order to worship the way the "new testament church" worshipped you would have to meet on Sunday. That's one of the reasons for my thread. I've never heard of a restorationist church that follows the new testament.

 

[HTacianas]

If you're going to follow the New Testament, you have to read it and understand it.

So if the new testament only began to be written twenty years after the founding of the Church, where does that leave the first Christians?

 

[dzheremi]

From what I've observed in my immediate environment in several U.S. states, a lot of this restorationist stuff seems to be tied to the so-called 'house church movement', wherein people eschew traditional liturgies, church buildings, and so forth in favor of small meetings in private homes that are supposedly led 'by the spirit'.

I never actually attended one of those because it seems to me such purposely 'off the radar' types of arrangements would be the perfect breeding ground for a cult, or at least a spiritually unhealthy environment, but I did much later worship with the Coptic Orthodox community in Albuquerque, NM, who for a long time before I got there and a while after I was there worshiped in a private home with a large living room which could accommodate a liturgy (e.g., altar and its cloths and other necessities, people, etc.), because they were saving up to buy a property to set up a 'proper' church there. So I've been in a 'home church' environment and I can't say it made me feel any more connected to the first century church -- but the liturgy held there certainly did, and that's the same liturgy that is celebrated now that the congregation has a proper church building in which to pray.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of the restorationist stuff has this sense of exclusivity, and not in a "theologically and ecclesiologically conservative" sort of way (because there's nothing conservative about believing that the first century Church rapidly fell into 'apostasy', as the Mormons and similar groups do), but in a "there but for the grace of God go I" kind of way, which is always unhealthy. You are not more connected to anything in particular just because you don't have a church building and the early church didn't have its own buildings, either. That'd be like saying it's a rule that all members wear sandals instead of dress shoes because there were no modern shoes in the first century. Okay, that may be true, but so what? That's not in keeping with the apostles. Preserving the political situation or social custom of first century Judea is not our goal -- preserving the faith of the apostles who lived and preached there is, and that's adaptable to a multitude of situations that were not foreseen in the OT (or at least not by a bare reading of it)...or it has to be, if you don't want it to die out.

 

[HTacianas]

But right in the Book of Acts we have a quote from that letter which the Jerusalem church sent out, don't we? Acts 15

Also > Colossians 4:16 > Paul mentions letters which were to be shared.

So, from this I can see how there could have been other sharing, though it is not recorded in detail.

Well, ones in Romans knew of Paul and even had developed in faith before meeting him, Paul himself says in Romans 1:8-12. So, ones had faith, but they did know of him.

And Paul says the Thessalonians themselves were "examples" (1 Thessalonians 1:7) to people they reached. So, yes ones Paul reached were reaching others. So, from this I can see that ones reaching could have told people about Paul.

So, I am curious who you mean, by saying Christians did not know of Paul, since he got the ministry to Gentiles started.

St. Thomas founded the Church in India. Paul did not write his first letter until twenty years later. And in those days it would have taken some unknown number of years for any copies of any of his letters to reach India.

 

[Albion]

I don't want to seem to be knocking anyone in particular, but merely by way of example, the Seventh Day Adventist movement. One of Ellen White's stated goals was to restore the church to its original form.

I see. But let me just say that the term "Restorationism" most often is applied to the Campbellite movement of the 19th century which produced the Disciples of Christ and the Churches of Christ which are not at all described by the points that were given in the OP or subsequent posts.

 

[com7fy8]

St. Thomas founded the Church in India. Paul did not write his first letter until twenty years later.

But what about those who were a product of Paul's ministry? And didn't any Christians in India have communication with the church in Jerusalem so they could be up-to-date about things like the greatest persecutor of the church converting to Jesus and reaching to the Gentiles? How long would it take for this to get out, with or without letters?

Also, Paul says the Corinthians were "an epistle of Christ" "known and read by all men" > in 2 Corinthians 3:1-3. So, anyone a product of his ministry was a living epistle wherever that person went, including by being "examples" like the Thessalonians became. An example can communicate deeper than words, like how Christian housewives can help disobedient husbands > 1 Peter 3:1-4.

So, in case a person has become an epistle of Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, could he or she be Canon Scripture traveling wherever God pleased? > not only the words, but the living meaning.

 

[FireDragon76]

Restorationism was a real thing, Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ being two obvious offshoots, plus alot of obvious heresies.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Are there any restorationist groups who actually follow the new testament?

By "restorationist" I mean any or all of those groups claiming that the Church somehow went astray and it is up to them to "set things straight".

To follow the new testament one must:

1. Practice water baptism for the remission of previous sins
2. Gather on the first day of the week
3. Sing the liturgy
4. Read from the bible (actually only read from the old testament)
5. Participate in the eucharist as the body and blood of Christ and a sacrificial sacrament

There are a few others, such as having apostles, teachers, etc. This only hits on a few of the high points.

When you get it right the first time, as the pre-Reformation churches in both East and West did, nothing has to be restored or reformed.

 

[W2L]

Are there any restorationist groups who actually follow the new testament?

By "restorationist" I mean any or all of those groups claiming that the Church somehow went astray and it is up to them to "set things straight".

To follow the new testament one must:

1. Practice water baptism for the remission of previous sins
2. Gather on the first day of the week
3. Sing the liturgy
4. Read from the bible (actually only read from the old testament)
5. Participate in the eucharist as the body and blood of Christ and a sacrificial sacrament

There are a few others, such as having apostles, teachers, etc. This only hits on a few of the high points.

2. Gather on the first day of the week

Actually the first church gathered daily.

4. Read from the bible (actually only read from the old testament)

The church also had the apostles letters and possibly even the Lords words as well. Consider these scriptures, they couldn't be true if the church didnt have the words of Christ.

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not [a]agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

Acts 20:35 In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

 

[Not David]

They have their view molded by Protestant theology so it is not difficult for them to have Protestant ideas.

 

[HTacianas]

Actually the first church gathered daily.



The church also had the apostles letters and possibly even the Lords words as well. Consider these scriptures, they couldn't be true if the church didnt have the words of Christ.

1 Timothy 6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not [a]agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness, 4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,

Acts 20:35 In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’”

As we have already established, the first letter of Paul was not written until twenty years after the Church was founded, so the early Church could not have read the letters of Paul.

 

[W2L]

As we have already established, the first letter of Paul was not written until twenty years after the Church was founded, so the early Church could not have read the letters of Paul.

They had thee Lords word and the apostles.

 

[HTacianas]

I see. But let me just say that the term "Restorationism" most often is applied to the Campbellite movement of the 19th century which produced the Disciples of Christ and the Churches of Christ which are not at all described by the points that were given in the OP or subsequent posts.

I was not describing the restorationist movements with the points in the OP. I was describing the early Church. None of the restorationist groups follow those points. That's the reason for the thread.

 

[W2L]

So if the new testament only began to be written twenty years after the founding of the Church, where does that leave the first Christians?

Ever hear about the words of Christ?

 

[HTacianas]

Ever hear about the words of Christ?

Yes I have, thank you.