Correction: The vast majority of the professing church is awaiting for His second coming.Meanwhile the vast majority of the church is waiting for His 2nd coming.
If you think Jesus returned way back then, you can play make believe if you want. Meanwhile, most of the Church believes His 2nd coming is still future.
Both can be true lamad.
No, I don't.
Every passage you can show me that you believe you can prove as unfulfilled, I can show corroborating scripture pointing to the fact that the nature of the fulfillment you are expecting is misguided and needs correction.
So go ahead and point out one or 2 of them.
I will submit you have a 3rd choice:
The paradigm you hold about the NATURE of what you THINK that Fulfillment Should look like is incorrect, and since the apostolic teaching about the TIMING is correct, your opinions about the nature need to be corrected to fit the God Ordained timing.
Rev 3:3 and 2 Thess 1:3-8 are hard ones for self proclaimed Literal Futurists, because a LITERAL rendering of either passage mandates a 1st century fulfillment of both of them, the implications of which are wholly destructive to the hyper futurist view.
Thus the hyper futurist is forced to render those passage elastic/spiritual, abandoning any literal rendering.
I get why you must do that.
You are lamad.
Like the first century Jews? Interesting comparison, but hardly comforting.
This is your dilemma. If you believe the church creeds, then you will also believe the millennial reign began in the first century, like Peter and Paul declared. You most definitely will NOT believe in an earthly reign, because it cannot be found in any of the original church creeds, nor in the New Testament.
Now, if the millennial reign began in the first century, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 must have also occurred in the first century, by default. Therefore, this statement by John rings loud and clear:"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:5-6As I have said all along, the first resurrection was for the early Christians: the ones who established the Church for Christ, who are also all Jews, as prophesied by Daniel. Note that Daniel's resurrection was only for Daniel's people ("thy people"):"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2That passage says nothing about anyone being delivered (or sent to hell) except some of the children of Israel (and not all of them.) That resurrection also occurred during a time of great trouble, exactly like this resurrection, which occurred during the generation of Christ. This is Christ speaking directly to his disciples:"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: . . . "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven . . . Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. -- Mark 13:19-21, 26-27, 30Therefore Daniel's resurrection, the one Christ promised his disciples, was the first resurrection and the so-called "second coming." It all fits; and the evidence abounds.
I personally am awaiting his so-called "third coming" after the millennial reign and the defeat of Satan, when the rest of the dead live again!
Correction: The vast majority of the professing church is awaiting for His second coming.
Fact is, Paul PROMISED the Thessalonians that Christ would return and give THEM relief from THEIR persecutions. If Christ did not return as Paul promised, then Paul was a FALSE prophet and that the "vast majority" believes Christ's promises in vain just as surely as the Thessalonians awaited in vain.
It's either scripture or the vast majority. Take your pick.
How completely amazing that you disagree with 99.99% of the church, and some of the commentators, and think you are right!
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
In case you don't understand this: Revelation 20 will not come to pass until Revelation 1-19 have come to pass. Very few believers today will agree with your theories.
By the way, most of those people that will rise after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be all those assigned to the 2nd death or the lake of fire. Why would you wait for that?
Rev20 said:And, in case you don't understand this, the Church Creeds declare that the millennial reign began in the first century,
Please demonstrate even one early church creed that said this.
Thanks for pointing that out. That was a bad choice of words. You may have noticed that I generally qualify those words with "so-called," as in, "so-called 'millennial reign,'" because there is no such thing as a thousand-year reign of Christ, but rather, a thousand year reign with Christ by the saints who were part of the first resurrection:"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:6.Christ has been reigning since his resurrection, and will reign forever. Notice the present tense of the words of Christ in this verse. The following passages establish the location of his throne:"And Jesus came and spake unto [his disciples,] saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." -- Matt 28:18"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." -- Ps 103:19"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." -- Ps 89:36-37Again, the words "millennial reign" was not a good choice because the creeds do not mention the "first resurrection" of Rev. 20, nor the concept of an earthly reign. The word "millennium," or equivalent, is absent altogether. Thus, the early church creeds are Amillennial in nature.
Generally, and beginning with the Apostles Creed, the early creeds imply that his reign began at his resurrection when he sat down on the right hand of the Father, and state or imply his reign will continue forever, with no mention of more than one resurrection. That is, Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet, and then the judgement, exactly like the scripture says, if one ignores the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6.
This "later" creed is more developed, and is similar to the basic end-times belief declared by my denomination.:
Athanasian Creed, A.D. 500 (excerpt):40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.[Philip Schaff, , "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume II." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev 20:1, pp.69-70]
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
My end times doctrine is very similar to the early church creeds, except I cannot ignore the first resurrection for the saints that occurred shortly after the great tribulation of A.D. 70. There is simply too much evidence for it.
.
The first creed I can find that actually used the word "millennium" was one of the later creeds of the Evangelical Reformed Churches (there may be earlier):"We reject all who deny the real resurrection; who teach the ultimate salvation of all the godless, and even the devil. We also reject the Jewish dream of a millennium, or golden age on earth, before the last judgment." [Philip Schaff, 1566 Second Helvetic Confession, "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume I." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev.20:1-3, p.404]Anyway, thanks again for pointing that out.
John tell us also that the sea gave up the dead which were in it.... and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:13)Why not just believe what John wrote. Where do those at the white throne judgment come from?
John tells us that hell gives up all those who have been imprisoned there.
Not all of those who will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement will be cast into the lake of fire - the second death -**...They are resurrected to face the lake of fire.
The truth is, Jesus has not come yet, for the church is STILL HERE. There is absolutely NO WAY a rapture could have happened way back then and no one wrote anything about it. The truth is, the trumpet judgments of Revelation are still future. Nothing in history has fulfilled any of the trumpet judgments. None of the vials have been poured out. The truth is, we are still waiting between the 5th and 6th seal of Revelation for Paul's rapture. However, I don't think we have long to wait.
I believe the great sign in the sun and moon currently taking place will end up being the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy and that means the Day of the Lord is right around the corner, so to speak.
So in other words, I should quit bothering you with scripture and quit pointing out the plain words of Christ that prove you wrong because your mind is made up?
What great sign in the sun and moon is currently taking place?
Four blood red moons are taking place: two are done, two are in 2015. There is an eclipse of the sun coming also.
What did Joel write? The sun would turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and dreadful day of the Lord.
When God says "soon," what does that mean? Jonah spoke the word of God and said "yet 40 days...." but nothing happened then. It did happen about 50 YEARS later.
Yawn...
Nothing unique or spectacular or eschatologically significant about these ongoing, repeating natural occurrences. They have been happening for Eons, and will continue to happen for eons more.
So when Joel said the Moon would actually "turn into blood", you don't take that literally?
Chapter and Verse?
If you are referring to Jonah 3, All I see is that particular specific prophesy of destruction in 40 days was conditional upon the repentance of the ninevites and was concluded this way:
10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.
Nowhere does it say God postponed it, put it off, did it later....
Nineveh did indeed get eventually destroyed, but God gave a DIFFERENT prophesy for THAT destruction (Nahum 1)... it was not merely a postponement of the Jonah 3 prophesy as you would have us believe.
Also, please show us Chapter and Verse that teach the timing of ANY Coming of Christ is conditional upon the repentance or lack thereof of men.
On the other hand, please show us when each trumpet judgment took place, and when each vial was poured out.
John tell us also that the sea gave up the dead which were in it.... and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:13)
Not all of those who will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement will be cast into the lake of fire - the second death -**...
Rev 20:12-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
...
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.**
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.**
**The second death seem to concern the total destruction of the soul...
While those destined to eternal fire and torments are clearly described below:
The Judgement /punishment of
those who will receive the mark and who worship the beast(Antichrist) or his image during the Antichrist reign is mentioned here:
Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The Judgement of Satan
Revelation 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Translation:
Look over there!... because there is nothing to see here.
Nice deflection.
When you would like to address my questions, I will gladly return the favor.
Until then,
You are lamad.
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