The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jack Terrence

Fighting the good fight
Feb 15, 2013
2,851
194
✟27,525.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Meanwhile the vast majority of the church is waiting for His 2nd coming.
Correction: The vast majority of the professing church is awaiting for His second coming.

Fact is, Paul PROMISED the Thessalonians that Christ would return and give THEM relief from THEIR persecutions. If Christ did not return as Paul promised, then Paul was a FALSE prophet and that the "vast majority" believes Christ's promises in vain just as surely as the Thessalonians awaited in vain.

It's either scripture or the vast majority. Take your pick.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you think Jesus returned way back then, you can play make believe if you want. Meanwhile, most of the Church believes His 2nd coming is still future.

Like the first century Jews? Interesting comparison, but hardly comforting.

This is your dilemma. If you believe the church creeds, then you will also believe the millennial reign began in the first century, like Peter and Paul declared. You most definitely will NOT believe in an earthly reign, because it cannot be found in any of the original church creeds, nor in the New Testament.

Now, if the millennial reign began in the first century, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 must have also occurred in the first century, by default. Therefore, this statement by John rings loud and clear:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:5-6

As I have said all along, the first resurrection was for the early Christians: the ones who established the Church for Christ, who are also all Jews, as prophesied by Daniel. Note that Daniel's resurrection was only for Daniel's people ("thy people"):

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2

That passage says nothing about anyone being delivered (or sent to hell) except some of the children of Israel (and not all of them.) That resurrection also occurred during a time of great trouble, exactly like this resurrection, which occurred during the generation of Christ. This is Christ speaking directly to his disciples:

"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: . . . "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven . . . Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. -- Mark 13:19-21, 26-27, 30

Therefore Daniel's resurrection, the one Christ promised his disciples, was the first resurrection and the so-called "second coming." It all fits; and the evidence abounds.

I personally am awaiting his so-called "third coming" after the millennial reign and the defeat of Satan, when the rest of the dead live again!

:)
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Both can be true lamad.



No, I don't.



Every passage you can show me that you believe you can prove as unfulfilled, I can show corroborating scripture pointing to the fact that the nature of the fulfillment you are expecting is misguided and needs correction.

So go ahead and point out one or 2 of them.




I will submit you have a 3rd choice:
The paradigm you hold about the NATURE of what you THINK that Fulfillment Should look like is incorrect, and since the apostolic teaching about the TIMING is correct, your opinions about the nature need to be corrected to fit the God Ordained timing.

Rev 3:3 and 2 Thess 1:3-8 are hard ones for self proclaimed Literal Futurists, because a LITERAL rendering of either passage mandates a 1st century fulfillment of both of them, the implications of which are wholly destructive to the hyper futurist view.

Thus the hyper futurist is forced to render those passage elastic/spiritual, abandoning any literal rendering.

I get why you must do that.
You are lamad.

The hyper historist is force to render most of the book of Revelation as elastic/spiritual, and abandon any literal rendering.

So preterists have the very same problem. Preconceived glasses are very difficult to see truth through.

The truth is, Jesus has not come yet, for the church is STILL HERE. There is absolutely NO WAY a rapture could have happened way back then and no one wrote anything about it. The truth is, the trumpet judgments of Revelation are still future. Nothing in history has fulfilled any of the trumpet judgments. None of the vials have been poured out. The truth is, we are still waiting between the 5th and 6th seal of Revelation for Paul's rapture. However, I don't think we have long to wait. I believe the great sign in the sun and moon currently taking place will end up being the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy and that means the Day of the Lord is right around the corner, so to speak.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Like the first century Jews? Interesting comparison, but hardly comforting.

This is your dilemma. If you believe the church creeds, then you will also believe the millennial reign began in the first century, like Peter and Paul declared. You most definitely will NOT believe in an earthly reign, because it cannot be found in any of the original church creeds, nor in the New Testament.

Now, if the millennial reign began in the first century, the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6 must have also occurred in the first century, by default. Therefore, this statement by John rings loud and clear:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:5-6
As I have said all along, the first resurrection was for the early Christians: the ones who established the Church for Christ, who are also all Jews, as prophesied by Daniel. Note that Daniel's resurrection was only for Daniel's people ("thy people"):
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." -- Dan 12:1-2
That passage says nothing about anyone being delivered (or sent to hell) except some of the children of Israel (and not all of them.) That resurrection also occurred during a time of great trouble, exactly like this resurrection, which occurred during the generation of Christ. This is Christ speaking directly to his disciples:
"For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: . . . "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven . . . Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. -- Mark 13:19-21, 26-27, 30
Therefore Daniel's resurrection, the one Christ promised his disciples, was the first resurrection and the so-called "second coming." It all fits; and the evidence abounds.

I personally am awaiting his so-called "third coming" after the millennial reign and the defeat of Satan, when the rest of the dead live again!

:)

How completely amazing that you disagree with 99.99% of the church, and some of the commentators, and think you are right!

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In case you don't understand this: Revelation 20 will not come to pass until Revelation 1-19 have come to pass. Very few believers today will agree with your theories.

By the way, most of those people that will rise after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be all those assigned to the 2nd death or the lake of fire. Why would you wait for that?
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Correction: The vast majority of the professing church is awaiting for His second coming.

Fact is, Paul PROMISED the Thessalonians that Christ would return and give THEM relief from THEIR persecutions. If Christ did not return as Paul promised, then Paul was a FALSE prophet and that the "vast majority" believes Christ's promises in vain just as surely as the Thessalonians awaited in vain.

It's either scripture or the vast majority. Take your pick.


I disagree, it is how the vast majority understand those verses - NOT the way you understand them.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
How completely amazing that you disagree with 99.99% of the church, and some of the commentators, and think you are right!

On the other hand, I have never met a postmillennialist who believes like you. And, in case you don't understand this, the Church Creeds declare that the millennial reign began in the first century, and they believe that when Christ comes it will be the final judgement.

So which "church" are you referring to? Are you referring to:

1. The Church that was established by the powers of the Apostles in the first century--those who declared that Christ ascended to the throne upon his resurrection and must reign until all enemies are under his feet?

2. Or, are you referring to modern-day "faith healers," like this fellow named Dave Roberson from Tulsa, Oklahoma?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WukyfhkhE7E

It appears Dave Roberson took over where Oral Roberts left off. Is that your church?
.

If Dave has that much faith, he should be able to move mountains, since it only requires faith as a grain of mustard seed:

"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." -- Matt 17:20


Those who Christ chose to serve him on earth received all five of the following powers (not some, but all,) aside from the ability to speak the oracles of God (which was given only to the Jews):

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." -- Mark 16:17-18

The mere shadow of Peter could heal the sick. The power of "speaking in tongues" was not to speak gibberish, but was the power to speak in bona-fide foreign languages in which they had no training.

This is from the day of Pentecost about AD 30, when Christ sent the Holy Ghost from the Father to his disciples, who were all Galileans:

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." -- Acts 2:5-11

I would be very cautious of anyone who claims any of those powers in modern times. I seem to recall a statement warning us of those exact same things:

"Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders," -- 2Th 2:9

.

As an aside, I need to bring up the following because I noticed that some were confused about these statements by Jesus:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" -- John 1:11-12

"But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." -- Mark 6:4

When the Word of God said, "His own," it was referring to Christ's own people, which were the Jews of Judaea, where he was born and raised. His disciples (except for maybe Judas Iscariot) were from Galilee, which was not a part of Judaea.

Therefore, God chose Christ's permanent disciples from outside his own country, where he would be believed; the same for the devout men from "every nation under heaven" (referenced above) who were in Jerusalem to celebrate the day of Pentecost.
.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In case you don't understand this: Revelation 20 will not come to pass until Revelation 1-19 have come to pass. Very few believers today will agree with your theories.

In case you don't understand this, Revelation 1-19 was fulfilled in the first century. The plain words "shortly," "time is at hand," "this generation," "not taste of death," and "will not have gone over the cities of Israel," did not mean 2000 years.

I am awaiting the final judgement, like the my Church denomination teaches:

"God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. …Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly…the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell. …The righteous… will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord." -- Southern Baptist Convention, Basic Beliefs

That is derived from the traditional Church Creeds. Unless one believes the so-called "millennial reign" is only one day long (as in a "thousand years equals one day,") the Southern Baptist Basic Beliefs, and the traditional Church Creeds, teach that the millennial reign began in the first century.

Why is it that we never hear futurists teach that the so-called millennial reign is only one day long? They certainly use the other side of this equation:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." -- 2Pet 3:8

The fact that many Christians of today have been led astray by modern dispensational theology is sad, indeed. But a growing number of Christians are learning to read without the blinders of modern bias, and are abandoning the dispensational myth-makers in droves.
.

By the way, most of those people that will rise after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be all those assigned to the 2nd death or the lake of fire. Why would you wait for that?

That is pure, man-made myth. Please show us in the scriptures where that can be found? If it were true, there should also be several supporting scriptures.

I won't hold my breath.

:)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Biblewriter

Senior Member
Supporter
May 15, 2005
11,937
1,498
Ocala, Florida
Visit site
✟531,725.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Rev20 said:
And, in case you don't understand this, the Church Creeds declare that the millennial reign began in the first century,

Please demonstrate even one early church creed that said this.
 
Upvote 0

Rev20

Partial Preterist
Jun 16, 2014
1,988
71
✟13,267.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Please demonstrate even one early church creed that said this.

Thanks for pointing that out. That was a bad choice of words. You may have noticed that I generally qualify those words with "so-called," as in, "so-called 'millennial reign,'" because there is no such thing as a thousand-year reign of Christ, but rather, a thousand year reign with Christ by the saints who were part of the first resurrection:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:6.

Christ has been reigning since his resurrection, and will reign forever. Notice the present tense of the words of Christ in this verse. The following passages establish the location of his throne:

"And Jesus came and spake unto [his disciples,] saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." -- Matt 28:18

"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." -- Ps 103:19

"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." -- Ps 89:36-37

Again, the words "millennial reign" was not a good choice because the creeds do not mention the "first resurrection" of Rev. 20, nor the concept of an earthly reign. The word "millennium," or equivalent, is absent altogether. Thus, the early church creeds are Amillennial in nature.

Generally, and beginning with the Apostles Creed, the early creeds imply that his reign began at his resurrection when he sat down on the right hand of the Father, and state or imply his reign will continue forever, with no mention of more than one resurrection. That is, Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet, and then the judgement, exactly like the scripture says, if one ignores the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6.

This "later" creed is more developed, and is similar to the basic end-times belief declared by my denomination.:

Athanasian Creed, A.D. 500 (excerpt):
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
[Philip Schaff, , "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume II." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev 20:1, pp.69-70]

My end times doctrine is very similar to the early church creeds, except I cannot ignore the first resurrection for the saints that occurred shortly after the great tribulation of A.D. 70. There is simply too much evidence for it.
.

The first creed I can find that actually used the word "millennium" was one of the later creeds of the Evangelical Reformed Churches (there may be earlier):

"We reject all who deny the real resurrection; who teach the ultimate salvation of all the godless, and even the devil. We also reject the Jewish dream of a millennium, or golden age on earth, before the last judgment." [Philip Schaff, 1566 Second Helvetic Confession, "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume I." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev.20:1-3, p.404]

Anyway, thanks again for pointing that out.

:)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Thanks for pointing that out. That was a bad choice of words. You may have noticed that I generally qualify those words with "so-called," as in, "so-called 'millennial reign,'" because there is no such thing as a thousand-year reign of Christ, but rather, a thousand year reign with Christ by the saints who were part of the first resurrection:
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." -- Rev 20:6.
Christ has been reigning since his resurrection, and will reign forever. Notice the present tense of the words of Christ in this verse. The following passages establish the location of his throne:
"And Jesus came and spake unto [his disciples,] saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." -- Matt 28:18
"The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all." -- Ps 103:19
"His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah." -- Ps 89:36-37
Again, the words "millennial reign" was not a good choice because the creeds do not mention the "first resurrection" of Rev. 20, nor the concept of an earthly reign. The word "millennium," or equivalent, is absent altogether. Thus, the early church creeds are Amillennial in nature.

Generally, and beginning with the Apostles Creed, the early creeds imply that his reign began at his resurrection when he sat down on the right hand of the Father, and state or imply his reign will continue forever, with no mention of more than one resurrection. That is, Christ reigns until all enemies are under his feet, and then the judgement, exactly like the scripture says, if one ignores the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6.

This "later" creed is more developed, and is similar to the basic end-times belief declared by my denomination.:

Athanasian Creed, A.D. 500 (excerpt):
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
[Philip Schaff, , "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume II." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev 20:1, pp.69-70]

My end times doctrine is very similar to the early church creeds, except I cannot ignore the first resurrection for the saints that occurred shortly after the great tribulation of A.D. 70. There is simply too much evidence for it.
.

The first creed I can find that actually used the word "millennium" was one of the later creeds of the Evangelical Reformed Churches (there may be earlier):
"We reject all who deny the real resurrection; who teach the ultimate salvation of all the godless, and even the devil. We also reject the Jewish dream of a millennium, or golden age on earth, before the last judgment." [Philip Schaff, 1566 Second Helvetic Confession, "The Creeds of Christendom: Volume I." Harper & Brothers, 1919, Rev.20:1-3, p.404]
Anyway, thanks again for pointing that out.

:)


The thing about ancient church creeds is that today there is FAR MORE knowledge of the word of God than back then. A good example is how believers viewed the book of Revelation hundreds of years ago and the millennial reign of Christ.

Most believers today are pretrib and believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ as a FUTURE event because it is what they have heard from pulpits and read in books. Some of these believers are good students of the bible and see these things in the word of God.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Rev 20 wrote,
Originally Posted by iamlamad
By the way, most of those people that will rise after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be all those assigned to the 2nd death or the lake of fire. Why would you wait for that?
That is pure, man-made myth. Please show us in the scriptures where that can be found? If it were true, there should also be several supporting scriptures.

I won't hold my breath.


Why not just believe what John wrote? Where do those at the white throne judgment come from? John tells us that hell gives up all those who have been imprisoned there. They are resurrected to face the lake of fire.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Riberra

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2014
5,098
594
✟90,164.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why not just believe what John wrote. Where do those at the white throne judgment come from?
John tells us that hell gives up all those who have been imprisoned there.
John tell us also that the sea gave up the dead which were in it.... and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:13)

They are resurrected to face the lake of fire.
Not all of those who will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement will be cast into the lake of fire - the second death -**...
Rev 20:12-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
...
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.**

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.**

**The second death seem to concern the total destruction of the soul...

While those destined to eternal fire and torments are clearly described below:

The Judgement /punishment of
those who will receive the mark and who worship the beast(Antichrist) or his image during the Antichrist reign is mentioned here:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


The Judgement of Satan
Revelation 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The truth is, Jesus has not come yet, for the church is STILL HERE. There is absolutely NO WAY a rapture could have happened way back then and no one wrote anything about it. The truth is, the trumpet judgments of Revelation are still future. Nothing in history has fulfilled any of the trumpet judgments. None of the vials have been poured out. The truth is, we are still waiting between the 5th and 6th seal of Revelation for Paul's rapture. However, I don't think we have long to wait.

So in other words, I should quit bothering you with scripture and quit pointing out the plain words of Christ that prove you wrong because your mind is made up?

I believe the great sign in the sun and moon currently taking place will end up being the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy and that means the Day of the Lord is right around the corner, so to speak.

What great sign in the sun and moon is currently taking place?
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
So in other words, I should quit bothering you with scripture and quit pointing out the plain words of Christ that prove you wrong because your mind is made up?



What great sign in the sun and moon is currently taking place?

Four blood red moons are taking place: two are done, two are in 2015. There is an eclipse of the sun coming also. What did Joel write? The sun would turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and dreadful day of the Lord.

When God says "soon," what does that mean? Jonah spoke the word of God and said "yet 40 days...." but nothing happened then. It did happen about 50 YEARS later.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Four blood red moons are taking place: two are done, two are in 2015. There is an eclipse of the sun coming also.

Yawn...

Nothing unique or spectacular or eschatologically significant about these ongoing, repeating natural occurrences. They have been happening for Eons, and will continue to happen for eons more.

What did Joel write? The sun would turn dark and the moon into blood before that great and dreadful day of the Lord.

So when Joel said the Moon would actually "turn into blood", you don't take that literally?

When God says "soon," what does that mean? Jonah spoke the word of God and said "yet 40 days...." but nothing happened then. It did happen about 50 YEARS later.

Chapter and Verse?

If you are referring to Jonah 3, All I see is that particular specific prophesy of destruction in 40 days was conditional upon the repentance of the ninevites and was concluded this way:

10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Nowhere does it say God postponed it, put it off, did it later....

Nineveh did indeed get eventually destroyed, but God gave a DIFFERENT prophesy for THAT destruction (Nahum 1)... it was not merely a postponement of the Jonah 3 prophesy as you would have us believe.

Also, please show us Chapter and Verse that teach the timing of ANY Coming of Christ is conditional upon the repentance or lack thereof of men.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Yawn...

Nothing unique or spectacular or eschatologically significant about these ongoing, repeating natural occurrences. They have been happening for Eons, and will continue to happen for eons more.



So when Joel said the Moon would actually "turn into blood", you don't take that literally?



Chapter and Verse?

If you are referring to Jonah 3, All I see is that particular specific prophesy of destruction in 40 days was conditional upon the repentance of the ninevites and was concluded this way:

10 Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it.

Nowhere does it say God postponed it, put it off, did it later....

Nineveh did indeed get eventually destroyed, but God gave a DIFFERENT prophesy for THAT destruction (Nahum 1)... it was not merely a postponement of the Jonah 3 prophesy as you would have us believe.

Also, please show us Chapter and Verse that teach the timing of ANY Coming of Christ is conditional upon the repentance or lack thereof of men.

On the other hand, please show us when each trumpet judgment took place, and when each vial was poured out.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
On the other hand, please show us when each trumpet judgment took place, and when each vial was poured out.

Translation:
Look over there!... because there is nothing to see here.

Nice deflection.

When you would like to address my questions, I will gladly return the favor.
Until then,
You are lamad.
 
Upvote 0

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
John tell us also that the sea gave up the dead which were in it.... and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.(Rev 20:13)


Not all of those who will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement will be cast into the lake of fire - the second death -**...
Rev 20:12-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
...
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.**

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.**

**The second death seem to concern the total destruction of the soul...

While those destined to eternal fire and torments are clearly described below:

The Judgement /punishment of
those who will receive the mark and who worship the beast(Antichrist) or his image during the Antichrist reign is mentioned here:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


The Judgement of Satan
Revelation 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



**The second death seem to concern the total destruction of the soul...


What causes you to think this? I see nothing that even hints at this.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

iamlamad

Lamad
Jun 8, 2013
9,616
744
77
Home in Tulsa
✟94,263.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Translation:
Look over there!... because there is nothing to see here.

Nice deflection.

When you would like to address my questions, I will gladly return the favor.
Until then,
You are lamad.


Translation: you can't find ANYTHING in History that hints of any of the trumpet judgments or vial judgments having happened. You can't because they are FUTURE. Many on this forum seem to be ignorant of what FUTURE really means.

Four blood red moons together, a tetrad, all on an anniversary dates of Jewish feast, is VERY unique, and very significant, and has happened very seldom in history. For example, the next one in the future is not until after the year 2500. Of course you can play ostrich if you choose; many are.

From a website:
Only once in the past two millennia do we find two Total Lunar Tetrads occurring in a single century. Therefore, there was a 5% chance two Total Tetrads could have occurred in the 20th century. There was a 2% chance one of those Tetrads would fall on 1949/50 or 1967/68 and a 1% chance on the other date, so that's approximately a 1 in 100,000 chance. The next feast-filled Tetrad is 2014/15 and the one after that is 2582/83 which is over 600 years from when Israel became a nation. I don't think Jesus was referring to a 600 year waiting period but perhaps as much as 75 years since 1948.

Yet, you wrote:
Nothing unique or spectacular or eschatologically significant about these ongoing, repeating natural occurrences.

I don't think the moon will be literal blood. I do believe God used Moses to turn water into blood.

So in other words, I should quit bothering you with scripture and quit pointing out the plain words of Christ that prove you wrong because your mind is made up?

There is always another side: there is a preponderance of scripture on the pretrib side. You don't "bother" me with your scriptures at all, for I understand the "plain words of Christ" differently than you do. Four times in Revelation Jesus said, "Behold, I come quickly" or something very similar. I believe that was written down around 95 AD.

Revelation 19 tells us what will happen when He comes in great power and glory. The church in general knows that the battle of armageddon is future. It has simply not happened. Perhaps you should set your favorite end times scriptures aside and begin studying others, like 1 Thes. 5 that tells us WHEN Paul's rapture will take place in relation to other end time events.

I conclude that "quickly" to God has a very different meaning that quickly to us.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.