The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures

[iamlamad]

No. The truth is you've been taught that. However in each point of Daniel 9:24, the New testament testifies to the completion:

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

1. to finish the transgression, - As I said on the cross Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"...John 19:30

2. to make an end of sin, - Hebrews 1:3:
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Also Hebrews 9:26:
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

3. to make atonement for iniquity, - Directly referencing "The Day of Attonment...Hebrews 9:11, 12:
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, - Clearly stated in Romans 3:21-26, Romans 4, Romans 5...and look at Romans 10:4:
4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5. to seal up vision and prophecy - None other than Jesus! John 3:31-34:
31 “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.
32 What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
33 He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true.
34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.

Also John 6:27:
27 Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

6. and to anoint the most holy place.- Hebrews 9:24:
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;

Each point verified by scriptures which you either don't understand, or choose to ignore.

Once again erroneous teaching will reach this conclusion...for the bodily resurrection isn't even in the discussion at this point...so you're building a straw man. WHat Paul is pointing out is if Christ was not resurrected he can't save us because He's still in the grave. Redemption is through his shed blood!!!

Ressurection is ultimate of salvation. Salvation is spoken of as a PRESENT possession! The Holy Spirit is given as a down payment of the resurrection...HELLO???

The resurrection showed Christ POWER over death and hell. That isn't the point of salvation...remember that "WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD THERE IS NO FORGIVENESS! So once again you're in error! Jesus was the PASSOVER LAMB! He DIED for our SINS. The resurrection shows his power over sin and death...so INDEED when He said "IT IS FINISHED"....it was FINISHED!

You have no point Lamad *IF* you note the TENSES in what you provide. Paul makes it very clear how one is SAVED (past tense)...and then he goes on to explain to the church at Corinth because Christ died and was raised...RESURRECTION IS A SURE THING!!! Let's put this nonsense to rest by pointing out 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Does it not plainly say "Christ DIED for our sins"?

Don't try to make a point from a passage teaching what *some* saints in Corinth were confused about. It's a teaching moment. Salvation IS ALWAYS A PRESENT POSSESSION!!! Everyone Jesus saves ARE SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT UNTIL THE DAY OF REDEMPTION!!!

THE SEVENTY WEEKS ARE DONE ON THE CROSS!!!

You still continue your nonsense with your head buried in the sand. You cannot take one verse and IGNORE another. Read again what Paul said:

4 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.


I did not write this, Paul did. What does that mean: ye are yet in your sins?
It took both Jesus DEATH and His Resurrection to get us born again.


LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

You still continue your nonsense with your head buried in the sand. You cannot take one verse and IGNORE another. Read again what Paul said:

4 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

This is the "nonsense" that you don't get Lamad...Pay attention:
If Christ did not defeat death we are in our sins because He's no different than anyone else that died! You understand?

Paul puts it out there in plain language for you and in order:
1. Christ DIED for our SINS according to the scripture - Now please notice the atonement is complete RIGHT THERE! "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS"!

2. That He was buried, and rose on the 3rd day according to the scriptures!

This is YOUR failure...to understand what Paul's meaning is...even though he just clearly told you...he separates the atonement from the reusurrection because two things are going on:

1.The atonement for sin as the Passover Lamb.

2. The resurrection to show HIS POWER over sin and death!

So once again...please read scripture, instead of reading into it. THE DEATH OF CHRIST IS THE ATONEMENT...that is why He said "IT IS FINISHED" and gave up His Spirit to the Father. Christ KNEW what He was saying...but you don't undersatnd it...and you will continue not to understand it until you accept what scripture says! Look at this passage...Romans 6:10:
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Do you notice the difference there now? He died to sin FOR ALL...so indeed when He said "IT IS FINISHED" guess what Lamad?...IT WAS FINISHED!!! When He was raised that showed His POWER over death and sin.

Are you getting there Lamad?

I did not write this, Paul did. What does that mean: ye are yet in your sins?
It took both Jesus DEATH and His Resurrection to get us born again.


LAMAD

Thank God you didn't write it...becuase you would have got it wrong as you have it now.

Praise God for Paul!

 

[ebedmelech]

You go ahead and believe your false theories....I know you will anyway. Right now, today, there are MANY people suffering in hell who were once born again believers. Jesus has taken people to hell to show them it is real. they have SEEN people there who used to be born again. They LOST their salvation. (Seems Bible2 may be right after all.)

Example: a born again lady had a friend that worked at a pharmacy: she would ask her friend to STEAL for her, instead of just paying for her drugs. Jesus said He tried to get her to change for a long time. She died instantly in a car accident. (She was outside of God's will for her so He could not protect her.) She went to HELL because THIEVES don't go to heaven. Jesus said her problem: she thought there was a difference between big sins and little sins. She thought she could GET AWAY with a "little" sin like stealing drugs. She thought WRONG. Thieves will not make it to heaven unless they REPENT and stop stealing.

Another lady in hell. She shot herself. She was a pastor's wife. Her husband had an affair with a younger lady in the church and was CAUGHT and exposed. His wife was FURIOUS with him. After a few days of anger, she shot herself - WITH UNFORGIVENESS in her heart. She went to hell, because if we don't forgive, then NEITHER CAN GOD forgive.

There was a pastor in Africa who was surely born again. He got in a serious argument with his wife, and she slapped his face. He was FURIOUS with her! He jumped in his car and drove away, plotting how to get even with her, ran off the road and crashed. He stayed alive for a day, then died. Angels took his spirit to hell and told him: "If God allowed you to stay dead, THIS is where you would be. He got offended saying he had been a pastor for years. They reminded him of what he was thinking just before he crashed. Unforgiveness can NEVER get into heaven. He was VERY blessed, because his wife would not allow him to die. She took his dead body (dead three days at that time) to a church meeting. They would not allow the casket into the church, but they took it into the basement. Several people watched this man come back to life. You can find his story on the web.

You need to WAKE UP! Unconfessed sin will not be allowed to enter heaven. The church today is a MESS. There is MUCH sin in the church. People think they can con God. It will not work. Fornicators will not go to heaven. Adulterers will not go to heaven. Thieves will not go to heaven. Paul wrote,
and such were some of you.....because they QUIT sinning. Sadly today so many in the church think they can live the same lifestyle as the world, and still go to heaven. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LAMAD

You can believe that if you want...but it's a satanic lie...let Jesus tell it to you in John 6:35-39
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Jesus just said HE WILL LOSE NO ONE...I'll stand on HIS WORD...not Lamad's and Biblle2's reasoning.

JESUS LOSES NONE WHO ARE SAVED. John teaches those who fall away were NEVER SAVED from the beginning...1 John 2:18-20;
18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. 20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you all know.

There it is...your reasoning...fails the test of God's word!

 

[keras]

Ebed said: When you find someone in the scriptures that lost salvation...let me know...otherwise you're just following someones teaching...not what scripture says Bible2.
Read Ezekiel 18, especially verse 24 and then apologise to Bible2 & Iamlamad.

You say: read the history in Kings, etc and see how that it has all passed.
Wrong again Ebed. A lot of those accounts have never been completely fulfilled and anyway we are told quite clearly by Paul, in 1 Cor. 10:11 they are recorded for us as a warning; upon whom the end of the age has come, that is: now, obviously not in Pauls day, as nearly 2000 years have gone by since then and the end of the age is still future.

 

[ebedmelech]

Ebed said: When you find someone in the scriptures that lost salvation...let me know...otherwise you're just following someones teaching...not what scripture says Bible2.
Read Ezekiel 18, especially verse 24 and then apologise to Bible2 & Iamlamad.

No...what you need to do is READ...nothing says anyone loses salvation in Ezekiel 18. Nothing says anything about losing salvation...it speaks of LOSING LIFE ON THIS EARTH...you know?...like the sin unto death.

Learn to read Keras...really!

You say: read the history in Kings, etc and see how that it has all passed.
Wrong again Ebed. A lot of those accounts have never been completely fulfilled and anyway we are told quite clearly by Paul, in 1 Cor. 10:11 they are recorded for us as a warning; upon whom the end of the age has come, that is: now, obviously not in Pauls day, as nearly 2000 years have gone by since then and the end of the age is still future.

Here again Keras...LEARN TO READ and HOLD CONTEXT. The subject is of Israel during the 40 years in the wilderness.

Let me help you:

*23,000 falling in one day is in Numbers 25.

*The fiery serpents incident is Numbers 21.

*The plague of the "destroyer" is Numbers 16 which is the "rebellion of Korah".

The apostle is pointing to sepcific incidents that occurred in the 40 year wilderness span! So once again...your failure to correlate scripture is evident.

PS...This is what I said:

Do yoursel a favor...Read 2 Kings...and don't do anything but accept what the passages say are happening. Also when you read on Isaiah the prophet...get a clue that it's in the book of Isaiah too.

If you did that...and you're going to say your Damascus thread a few months back is still to be fulfilled...WOW! Did you miss Isaiah 8...or tear it out of your bible?

Carry on!

 

[Interplanner]

Keras,
btw, the I Cor 10 quote of Paul about the warning is one of the indicators that the timestamp of Mt 24A was everywhere in the early church. they had good reason to think that generation was the end. It was so clear that Paul's recording partner Luke did not even mention the allowance of delay that Mt and Mk do.

 

[keras]

Originally Posted by keras View Post
Ebed said: When you find someone in the scriptures that lost salvation...let me know...otherwise you're just following someones teaching...not what scripture says Bible2.
Read Ezekiel 18, especially verse 24 and then apologise to Bible2 & Iamlamad.

No...what you need to do is READ...nothing says anyone loses salvation in Ezekiel 18. Nothing says anything about losing salvation...it speaks of LOSING LIFE ON THIS EARTH...you know?...like the sin unto death. #545 Ebedmelech.

So sure of your Bible exegesis, Ebed? Please explain Ezekiel 18:27-28 When a wicked person gives up their sinful ways and does what is just and right, they preserve their life....they will not die, they will live.
How is this referring to a normal lifespan?
You are wrong and now you need to apologize to me as well.

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 538:

When you find someone in the scriptures that lost salvation...let me know...

Even though Judas was chosen/elect/saved/empowered like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) and unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).

ebedmelech said in post 538:

. . . you're just following someones teaching...not what scripture says

Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance that initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There's no assurance that they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give believers more work to do for him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if believers ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it's not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work he's actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

ebedmelech said in post 538:

Jesus said of those who comes to Him in John 10:29:
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

John 10:28-29 means that saved people will never perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a saved person can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 doesn't mean that saved people are imprisoned in God's hand, that they can't wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 isn't contradicting that God himself can in the end cast saved people out of his hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they don't continue in his goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 doesn't mean that a saved person's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a saved person can't wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make saved people like people who have been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that he doesn't do that to saved people, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because he does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every saved person will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

*******

ebedmelech said in post 543:

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

John 6:37a applies only to initial salvation. For John 6:37b (like John 6:35b) apples only to those believers who continue to believe (John 15:6, Hebrews 3:6,12,14), do good works (John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), and repent from any sins they commit (Luke 13:3), to the end (Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26-29). For Jesus will ultimately cast out some initially saved people because of such things as unrepentant sin (1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (John 15:2a,6), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), at the judgment of the church by Jesus at his 2nd coming (Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

ebedmelech said in post 543:

39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Note that resurrection in itself doesn't assure a resurrection to eternal life, for one can be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29). This applies even to the elect. For even though they all get initially saved at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b, John 6:37a), and Jesus won't physically lose any of them, but will physically resurrect all of them (John 6:39) at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23), some of them will be resurrected to damnation (John 5:29), to shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8). Also, at the subsequent resurrection, at the great white throne judgment, those whose names aren't found written in the book of life will be physically resurrected only to be judged and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).

ebedmelech said in post 543:

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Note that 1 John 2:19 doesn't require that apostate believers were never real believers, but can mean that apostate believers were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real believers who have their names written in the book of life can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic-type Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3), and so left the church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).

 

[Bible2]

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[iamlamad]

This is the "nonsense" that you don't get Lamad...Pay attention:
If Christ did not defeat death we are in our sins because He's no different than anyone else that died! You understand?

Paul puts it out there in plain language for you and in order:
1. Christ DIED for our SINS according to the scripture - Now please notice the atonement is complete RIGHT THERE! "CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS"!

I agree 100%: Jesus DID die for our sins - but He also RAISED for our sins. You are concentrating on half the formula and ignoring the other half - as Paul CONTINUED to write, if Jesus did not raise WE - YOU and I are STILL in our sins - even though He died.

2. That He was buried, and rose on the 3rd day according to the scriptures!

This is YOUR failure...to understand what Paul's meaning is...even though he just clearly told you...he separates the atonement from the reusurrection because two things are going on:

1.The atonement for sin as the Passover Lamb.

2. The resurrection to show HIS POWER over sin and death!

So once again...please read scripture, instead of reading into it. THE DEATH OF CHRIST IS THE ATONEMENT...that is why He said "IT IS FINISHED" and gave up His Spirit to the Father. Christ KNEW what He was saying...but you don't undersatnd it...and you will continue not to understand it until you accept what scripture says! Look at this passage...Romans 6:10:
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Do you notice the difference there now? He died to sin FOR ALL...so indeed when He said "IT IS FINISHED" guess what Lamad?...IT WAS FINISHED!!! When He was raised that showed His POWER over death and sin.

Are you getting there Lamad?


Thank God you didn't write it...becuase you would have got it wrong as you have it now.

Praise God for Paul!

Please tell us why Paul wrote: "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." IT seems very plain Paul is telling us that if Christ had NOT risen from the dead, His death for our sins would have been a failure - that our salvation depends just as much on His resurrection as it does on His death.
Paul could have written anything else but "ye are yet in your sins."

EXPLAIN TO US WHY would they still be "in their sins" since Paul had just written "how that Christ died for our sins?" In fact, Paul also wrote: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." And John wrote, "washed us from our sins in his own blood." Why then, once He had bled out some blood, could He not have come down off the cross, for He had shed enough blood to wash away sins? Could it be it took MORE than just the shedding of blood?

I can't wait to hear how you will explain.

LAMAD

 

[ebedmelech]

I agree 100%: Jesus DID die for our sins - but He also RAISED for our sins. You are concentrating on half the formula and ignoring the other half - as Paul CONTINUED to write, if Jesus did not raise WE - YOU and I are STILL in our sins - even though He died.


Please tell us why Paul wrote: "And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins." IT seems very plain Paul is telling us that if Christ had NOT risen from the dead, His death for our sins would have been a failure - that our salvation depends just as much on His resurrection as it does on His death.
Paul could have written anything else but "ye are yet in your sins."

EXPLAIN TO US WHY would they still be "in their sins" since Paul had just written "how that Christ died for our sins?" In fact, Paul also wrote: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." And John wrote, "washed us from our sins in his own blood." Why then, once He had bled out some blood, could He not have come down off the cross, for He had shed enough blood to wash away sins? Could it be it took MORE than just the shedding of blood?

I can't wait to hear how you will explain.

LAMAD

One more time Lamad...and think about this:

*If Jesus was not resurrected...then He's just like anyone else...a mere man.

*THE RESURRECTION shows His POWER over sin and death...it also proves Him to be who He said He was THE SON OF GOD! The wages of sin is death, but NOT when it came to Christ!

I don't have to explain anything...it's right there in the scriptures Paul is telling you AND YOU are not listening.

1. He said Christ DIED for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

2. He was buried, and rose on the third day according to the scriptures

Please notice the resurrection is NOT associated with the atonement...it is AFTER the atonement!

So once again, realize the resurrection is about Jesus' POWER over sin and death.

Now there are several passages making the point the atonement is about Christ DYING for sins:

He was wounded for our trangressions...Is 53:5

Jesus said "I lay down MY LIFE for the sheep" John 10:15

Peter says " He Himself bore our sins in His BODY on the tree"...1 Peter 2:24

THEY NEVER CONNECT the resurrection to the atonement...why are you doing that?

For the last time...if Christ isn't raised we're in our sins because He didn't CONQUER death the grave held Him...but what does Peter say at Acts 2:24:?
24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Peter associates the resurrectrion as CHRIST POWER OVER DEATH and the GRAVE!!!

Jesus gave us the purpose of the resurrection in John 10:17
17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again.

Notice Jesus said...He lays His life down so He can take it up again...testifying to WHO HE IS...this is what Paul means when he say "if Christ be not raised, you are yet in your sins"...it makes Christ a liar because HE SAID HE WOULD RISE AGAIN.

When Jesus said "IT IS FINISHED"... "the TRANSGRESSION" of Daniel 9:24 is what He means!

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad,
the grammar of rom 4:25 should help clear this up. "He was put to death because of our sins, and was raised because of our justification."

In both cases, the result was due to the cause being successfully accomplished. So in A, it is implied that sin was atoned for. (This parallels for ex., 2 Cor 5 where "Christ was made to be sin" actually means "...a sin offering.")

He was therefore raised to prove that justification had taken place. This is just as important in Act 13's sermon punchline. The resurrection is there to prove that our justifcation from sins had taken place. We spend time on, and listen to 'how to prove the resurrection' yet the apostles spent time on what the resurrection proves. This was very significant in 1st century Judaism, as you can also see from Acts 13's sermon. The belief that there was to be a particular Holy One of God--a Son, as identified elsewhere in Psalms (2)--who would not be allowed to decay. He was to be brought back because of an indestructible life (--Heb 12).

That person, that Holy One's resurrection, was the signal of the initiation of the Messianic Age.

This also should change what we hear in Acts 26 for us. "Why do any of you think it incredible that God raises the dead?" There should not have been cynicism about that because they knew that the One who would not see decay was to be God, but a God-man. But their problem was accepting that it was this particular Jesus of Nazareth, at the 'man' end of things.

If you read the verse before you see that this is instinctively connected to the fulfillment of hope for the nation, as was Acts 13's sermon. So the question really being asked was: don't you see that justification from sins has been provided by this innocent Jesus of Nazareth, which God proved by resurrecting him? Don't you see that Israel now has its 'mission'--to preach this message of grace to the nations, like me (v29)?

He even goes all the way forward in Christian doctrine to say that those in Christ are doing what "all the prophets" said would happen: they would become proclaimers of this "light" (that God justifies us from our sins in Christ) to both Israel and the nations, v23. We always have to look at who is being asked the question to get the full nuance.

 

[ebedmelech]

Originally Posted by keras View Post
Ebed said: When you find someone in the scriptures that lost salvation...let me know...otherwise you're just following someones teaching...not what scripture says Bible2.
Read Ezekiel 18, especially verse 24 and then apologise to Bible2 & Iamlamad.

No...what you need to do is READ...nothing says anyone loses salvation in Ezekiel 18. Nothing says anything about losing salvation...it speaks of LOSING LIFE ON THIS EARTH...you know?...like the sin unto death. #545 Ebedmelech.

So sure of your Bible exegesis, Ebed? Please explain Ezekiel 18:27-28 When a wicked person gives up their sinful ways and does what is just and right, they preserve their life....they will not die, they will live.
How is this referring to a normal lifespan?
You are wrong and now you need to apologize to me as well.

I will not apologize...because of your utter failure to realize Ezekiel is speaking of EARTHLY life Keras...and this is something I think you know already...or am I giving you too much credit?

Notice NOTHING is said of hades there...because it's about earthly life. I keep saying to you...read scripture, don;t read INTO scripture. There is nothing in the passage giving you an idea this is loss of salvation.

Once again...look at what you cite...Ezekiel 18;27, 28:
27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28 Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Now...please point to anything about salvation Keras...please show where this is eternal life or going to heaven...

Salvation is NOT defined in Ezekiel 18...look at the closing verses 30-32:
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31 Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

In salvation Keras...GOD MAKES YOU NEW...YOU DONT "MAKE YOURSELF" NEW!!!

Please notice the difference by comparing this to Jeremiah 31:33
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Do you notice the difference???

 

[Old Timer]

Probably the most common error made in interpreting Bible prophecy is attempting to interpret the symbolic portions of these prophecies without taking into account the explicitly stated portions.

We (almost) all agree that the Bible is a unified whole, and that we cannot correctly interpret any part of the Divine Word without considering the rest of what God has said about the subject under consideration. But very few seem to even be aware of many explicitly stated details of what God has said He will do at the time He returns to this earth.

This series of articles is an attempt to address this problem. It reviews five battles or campaigns distinctly spelled out in the prophetic scriptures as occurring after the Lord returns, with the scriptures that clearly state these details. It also reviews events occurring between and after these battles that help to understand the battles themselves and how we can know the order in which they will occur.

It is important to understand that these articles are not based on interpretations of the meanings of deep, mysterious statements of scripture. They are rather based on explicitly stated prophecies made in plain ordinary language. Thus, there articles are not a product of a fertile imagination, but a review of what God has expressly said He will do when He returns to this earth.

The material in these articles is generously borrowed from “Keys to Bible Prophecy,” by James C. Morris, and is thus copyrighted material. As I am the owner of the copyright, I have the right to publish it here. I hereby grant any reader the right to copy any of this material and to share it with their associates. But permission must be obtained before it is re-published in any form.

Scripture for these articles is taken from the New King James Version.
Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
Used by permission. All rights reserved.

Bible text from the New King James Version is not to be reproduced in copies or otherwise by any means except as permitted in writing by Thomas Nelson, Inc., Attn: Bible Rights and Permissions, P.O. Box 141000, Nashville, TN 37214‑1000.

Time to get back to the basics perhaps...

 

[Interplanner]

Back to basics to me would mean not using OT passages about which the NT says nothing when 2500 references to the OT are used. We should stick with the basic and most repeated OT passages as used by the apostles, not spend time on the ones they did not use.

 

[Old Timer]

Back to the basics for you means the DofJ...

Let's not kid yourself here..

 

[Interplanner]

2500 references

 

[Old Timer]

Or the DofJ..

There's no,sense in kidding yourself here.

 

[Interplanner]

Keras only,
in case there is any confusion from obsessed anti-DofJ's or DofJ denialists, the 2500 references speak to plenty of other things as well besides that event (the DofJ) which most of the 1st generation of Christians went through, even if from a 'safe' distance. But they never speak about battles by Israel for the sake of Israel's independence, or as though the whole Christian church was waiting for such independence to happen, etc. Just the day of God's wrath on all mankind.

 

[Old Timer]

Everyone is a little tired of the ol DofJ card you're constantly playing..