The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

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Wrangler

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Maybe these will shed some light.

Steve, I'm not interested in your Appeal to Diversions. If you cannot stick to one verse at a time, you are just changing the goal post. Fact is, John 3:16 does not go against Universalism. As soon as you admit this, then we can go on to discuss any other verse you want - provided you also discuss other verses I interject.
 
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Wrangler

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Why is it arrogance to differ with you about there being an agreement?
Is it arrogant simply to disagree with you? There was no agreement.
You decided all on your own that you would only address one of my verses.
I had no part in the decision.

Steve, you are a PIA! I mentioned sticking to John 3:16 and for several exchanges we did. This is tacit agreement.

Do you really want to discuss why people believe in Universalism or all your reasons why it is wrong?
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm sorry Steve that I missed this post earlier.

Yes, I am claiming that 1Cor.15:42 is in reference to all of humanity, Not just believers. Isn't it true that everyone will be resurrected on Judgement Day? (Not sure where you stand on soul sleep)
I think the situation is best described in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.
A great chasm divides the saved from the lost. (Jn.5:24 see below) The eternal dead from those with eternal life.

In reference to Soul Sleep, I do not believe the state of the dead in the afterlife to be unconscious nonexistence. There are 29 references to the realm of the dead in the NIV translation. One of them is in Acts chapter two.

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
 
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Saint Steven

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Steve, I'm not interested in your Appeal to Diversions. If you cannot stick to one verse at a time, you are just changing the goal post. Fact is, John 3:16 does not go against Universalism. As soon as you admit this, then we can go on to discuss any other verse you want - provided you also discuss other verses I interject.
Looks like an impasse.
I strongly disagree that John 3:16 supports Universalism. It says no such thing! Quite the contrary.
 
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Saint Steven

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Steve, you are a PIA! I mentioned sticking to John 3:16 and for several exchanges we did. This is tacit agreement.
More name-calling. Thanks.
Nope. I was complying against my will. I was not in agreement; I was being tolerant of your behavior.
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you really want to discuss why people believe in Universalism or all your reasons why it is wrong?
I would really like four or five reasons why people believe in Universalism.
Simple and to the point.

What I usually get is a link to endless pages of explanation.
From my perspective, if it is that hard to explain, how can it possibly be true?
 
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Wrangler

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I would really like four or five reasons why people believe in Universalism.
Simple and to the point.

What I usually get is a link to endless pages of explanation.
From my perspective, if it is that hard to explain, how can it possibly be true?

Steve,

Universalism has been explained to you over and over again. You are not taking responsibility for learning but blaming others for your stubborn refusal to learn. For instance, you never responded to my post about universal restoration from Acts 3:20-26. (Instead, you stubbornly keep posting verses that support your view).

HINT: If you truly want to learn. Listen. Read carefully and ask questions about what others, Universalists, post. Don't bring up your own "but what abouts."

Wrangler
 
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Wrangler

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I would really like four or five reasons why people believe in Universalism.
Simple and to the point.

Reason 1: Universal Restoration

Universal Restoration

Acts 3:20-21 (VOICE)
20 Then God may send Jesus the Anointed, whom God has chosen for you. 21 He is in heaven now and must remain there until the day of universal restoration comes—the restoration which in ancient times God announced through the holy prophets.

What are your thoughts on this reason? That is, do you understand - even if you do not agree - how this can be considered Scriptural support for Universalism?
 
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Saint Steven

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HINT: If you truly want to learn. Listen. Read carefully and ask questions about what others, Universalists, post. Don't bring up your own "but what abouts."
Fair enough.
 
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Saint Steven

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Reason 1: Universal Restoration



What are your thoughts on this reason? That is, do you understand - even if you do not agree - how this can be considered Scriptural support for Universalism?
This is a point that I agree with. Although I question what the restoration of all things fully means. What is God going to restore? The term "all things" or "everything" is pretty broad. So, though I agree that there will be a restoration, I question what that entails.

Acts 3:20-21
and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
 
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Wrangler

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This is a point that I agree with. Although I question what the restoration of all things fully means. What is God going to restore? The term "all things" or "everything" is pretty broad. So, though I agree that there will be a restoration, I question what that entails.

The term "all things" or "everything" is pretty broad BECAUSE that was universalism is. :)
 
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REASON 2: Universalists truly believe in an all-merciful God.

13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire. 14 If a man’s work stands the test of fire, he will be rewarded. 15 If a man’s work is consumed by the fire, his reward will be lost but he will be spared, rescued from the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (VOICE)
 
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Saint Steven

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REASON 2: Universalists truly believe in an all-merciful God.

13 the quality of each person’s work will be revealed in time as it is tested by fire. 14 If a man’s work stands the test of fire, he will be rewarded. 15 If a man’s work is consumed by the fire, his reward will be lost but he will be spared, rescued from the fire.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (VOICE)
Okay, thanks.
I understand that. Will there be another reason that addresses God's justice, or is this the place to ask how God's mercy balances with his justice?

Also, do you have scriptural support that speaks to humankind in general. My understanding is that the scripture you provided only applies to believers whose works are being tested. This is not in reference to the general Judgment, as I understand it.
 
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Steve,

It seems like we are genuinely communicating now. Praise Jesus! I'm not sure I will be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction but hopefully this will give you something to thing about while I go to bed. LOL

Okay, thanks.
I understand that. Will there be another reason that addresses God's justice, or is this the place to ask how God's mercy balances with his justice?

Good question. I always took this to be both God's mercy and justice.

Also, do you have scriptural support that speaks to humankind in general.

I believe the passage in question does speak to humanity in general.

My understanding is that the scripture you provided only applies to believers whose works are being tested. This is not in reference to the general Judgment, as I understand it.

Certainly, that is the non-universalist view. I believe the reconciliation is found in the post-death acceptance of Jesus. Yes, I realize this is not Scriptural but I deny Scripture says accepting Jesus has to happen before death. So, the reliance of this verse is found in eventual reconciliation with God through Jesus, where death is no barrier to this reconciliation. :)
 
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Saint Steven

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It seems like we are genuinely communicating now. Praise Jesus! I'm not sure I will be able to answer your questions to your satisfaction but hopefully this will give you something to thing about while I go to bed. LOL
Okay, thanks.
We can pick this up again later.
I appreciate the help. So far, so good.

The list to date: (modify as you see fit)
"Four or five reasons why people believe in Universalism." (me)

Reason 1: Universal Restoration

Reason 2: Universalists truly believe in an all-merciful God.
 
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FineLinen

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The term "all things" or "everything" is pretty broad BECAUSE that was universalism is. :)


Dear Wrangler: The Restoration encompasses EVERYTHING marred by sin and broken communion with the Living One. In the words of Sir Isaac Watts, No more let sin and sorrow grow, and thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow>>>>>>>

Far as the curse is found.
 
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FineLinen

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"And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation."

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11-

"Men shall worship Him"

"Every one"

"From his place"

"And all the isles of the heathen"

Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

The purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring? =

"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

"The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements? = The Living Life who has spoken it!

"I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
 
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"And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation."

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11-

"Men shall worship Him"

"Every one"

"From his place"

"And all the isles of the heathen"

Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

The purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring? =

"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

"The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements? = The Living Life who has spoken it!

"I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
Thanks.
It looks like the minor prophet Zephaniah is a good source for Universalist scriptures.
 
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Saint Steven

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No more let sin and sorrow grow, and thorns infest the ground
I hope that doesn't spell the end for raspberries. (the fruit not the disapproving noise)
Maybe raspberry bushes without thorns? (or seeds) - lol
 
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Dear Wrangler: The Restoration encompasses EVERYTHING marred by sin and broken communion with the Living One. In the words of Sir Isaac Watts, No more let sin and sorrow grow, and thorns infest the ground, He comes to make His blessings flow>>>>>>>

Far as the curse is found.

 
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