The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

BNR32FAN said:

You mean Origen who was labeled as a heretic by the 2nd ecumenical council of Constantinople and whom was refuted by Jerome?

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1. Being "labeled as heretic" has been known to be a badge of honor.

2. There is a vast gulf between "refuted" and "disproven."

QUOTE="THE W Presbyterianism isn't a religion. it's a denomination of the same religion that romanists are apart of only with different doctrinal distinctives.

If the Early Fathers were to hear those "doctrinal distinctives" of which you speak, such as God's predestination of souls to eternal torment, the Eucharist being a mere bare memorial meal, no priests in the Church, etc.....they would have run down the street with their hair on fire screaming "Heresy! Heresy!" But you just go right ahead and believe that Presbyterianism is the original Christianity, just as Roman Catholics, who got this whole denominational mess started, think they are the original and unchanged church!

uh huh, i'm x-this and an x-that. no one knows how thoroughly I understood my former position but hey, I believed it.

Nice try. I was Calvinist. I studied it, embraced it, and believed in it. I lived it, loved it, and learned it.

great, my truth comes from reading non-infallible, non-inspired sources and reading their conclusions into the scriptures. that's nice bud.

These "non-inspired" sources are the same men who defended the deity of Christ and picked out which books were to be part of the canon of Scripture. Your problem is that you think the Bible is A.) divinely inspired, that is, a word for word dictation from God to the Apostles B.) without error C.) not a translation, in which there are numerous errors, many of which came from the translator's decision to promote an agenda, such as the errors in the Douay-Rheims RC Bible D.) perspicuous. It ain't If it were so clear to understand, there wouldn't be thousands of denominations with hundred of competing and conflicting doctrines, all claiming to be "truth" and all claiming the inspiration and leadership of the Holy Spirit.

and then you picked up a belief that people who die outside of Christ in unrepentant sin will still be saved.

Your infallible and inerrant Bible says that all are saved:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, (No! ALL are dead!) much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (Note, since we see in verse 12 that all are under the condemnation of sin by the action of Adam, the word "many" here must mean all mankind since there is no one who is not under the consequence of Adam's fall. Thus as all were dead in Adam, all have been made alive in Christ) 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many (ALL) were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many (ALL) be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (Does grace "much more" abound in your soteriology? Or does the devil win and spend eternity thumbing his nose at God while gloating over the millions of souls he stole from God?) 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Is that enough Scripture for you? I noticed this over ten years ago before I had even heard of Apokatastasis and I went "Hmmmmmm.......?"

at least you stayed consistent in never consulting scripture for your conclusions.

Well, I guess I just proved you wrong on that count, didn't I?

you haven't provided anything

Well, now I have. So tell me why St. Paul really didn't mean what he said.

BNR32FAN said:

You mean Origen who was labeled as a heretic by the 2nd ecumenical council of Constantinople and whom was refuted by Jerome?

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The declaring of Origen as a heretic had specific basis which was not about Apokatastasis. Origen's ideas of the pre-existence of souls were that which got him into ecclesiastical troubles.

Furthermore, modern scholarship has revealed that the condemnations of Apokatastasis were not part of the original council, but were added by the half-pagan and murderous emperor, Justinian, who had a habit of killing people with whom he disagreed.

I don't know about you, but I don't take my theology from thugs and murderers. Emperor Justinian had no business intruding his will and/or his desires upon a council of the Church. He waaaaaaay oversteps his proper boundaries.

For you, I think a little more study on what really happened at Constantinople II, rather than the whitewashed bovine excrement we are fed by the Roman Catholic Church, would be a big help.

FineLinen said:

Dear BNR: That is him!

Origen=

Origen - Wikipedia

Origen

Origen - Bible Study Tools

Catholic Encyclopedia=

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Origen and Origenism

Jerome=

Jerome - Wikipedia

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Iranaeus was an early church Father. He was never called a heretic and this is what he had to say on the subject.

Iranaeus quotes


The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciplesthis faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, Ephesians 1:10 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess Philippians 2:10-11 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, Ephesians 6:12 and the angelswho transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 1 Chapter 10 Paragraph 1


what great things the Lord had done at His coming to save those who received Him, taking compassion upon them; while they keep silence with regard to His judgment; and all those things which shall come upon such as have heard His words, but done them not, and that it were better for them if they had not been born, Matthew 26:24 and that it shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the judgment than for that city which did not receive the word of His disciples. Matthew 10:15


2. For as, in the New Testament, that faith of men [to be placed] in God has been increased, receiving in addition [to what was already revealed] the Son of God, that man too might be a partaker of God; so is also our walk in life required to be more circumspect, when we are directed not merely to abstain from evil actions, but even from evil thoughts, and from idle words, and empty talk, and scurrilous language: thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever; and to whomsoever He shall say, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you for eternity, Matthew 25:34 these do receive the kingdom for ever, and make constant advance in it; since there is one and the same God the Father, and His Word, who has been always present with the human race, by means indeed of various dispensations, and has wrought out many things, and saved from the beginning those who are saved, (for these are they who love God, and follow the Word of God according to the class to which they belong,) and has judged those who are judged, that is, those who forget God, and are blasphemous, and transgressors of His word.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 28

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies (St. Irenaeus)

FineLinen said:

Dear BNR: That is him!

Origen=

Origen - Wikipedia

Origen

Origen - Bible Study Tools

Catholic Encyclopedia=

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Origen and Origenism

Jerome=

Jerome - Wikipedia

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And this

Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternalrest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies (St. Irenaeus)

Lazarus Short said:

1. Being "labeled as heretic" has been known to be a badge of honor.

2. There is a vast gulf between "refuted" and "disproven."

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I don’t see the logic there. I’ve already refuted universalism several times. Luke 12:10, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:31, and Mark 3:29 still stand unanswered.

Light of the East said:

The declaring of Origen as a heretic had specific basis which was not about Apokatastasis. Origen's ideas of the pre-existence of souls were that which got him into ecclesiastical troubles.

Furthermore, modern scholarship has revealed that the condemnations of Apokatastasis were not part of the original council, but were added by the half-pagan and murderous emperor, Justinian, who had a habit of killing people with whom he disagreed.

I don't know about you, but I don't take my theology from thugs and murderers. Emperor Justinian had no business intruding his will and/or his desires upon a council of the Church. He waaaaaaay oversteps his proper boundaries.

For you, I think a little more study on what really happened at Constantinople II, rather than the whitewashed bovine excrement we are fed by the Roman Catholic Church, would be a big help.

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The 2nd council of Constantinople happened long before Rome’s problems began. All the churches were still in full communion at that time. Rome didn’t fall away to schism until over 500 years later. So I really don’t see what Rome had to do with the council’s decision. Rome has not claimed papal primacy at this time and the council was led by the authority of the Pentarchy not the bishop of Rome. There was no pope at this time.

BNR32FAN said:

The 2nd council of Constantinople happened long before Rome’s problems began. All the churches were still in full communion at that time. Rome didn’t fall away to schism until over 500 years later. So I really don’t see what Rome had to do with the council’s decision. Rome has not claimed papal primacy at this time and the council was led by the authority of the Pentarchy not the bishop of Rome. There was no pope at this time.

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What I meant by including Rome is that they have a particular view of history which is not in line with either modern scholarship or the facts. I have seen no place in their publications where they speak of the interference of Justinian with the council. That fact is just glossed over (white-washed).

Light of the East said:

What I meant by including Rome is that they have a particular view of history which is not in line with either modern scholarship or the facts. I have seen no place in their publications where they speak of the interference of Justinian with the council. That fact is just glossed over (white-washed).

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I’m not surprised there, they have a reputation for that sort of history keeping. Although Rome was only 1/5 of the council leadership. You still had the other 4 bishops of the pentarchy on the ruling as well.

BNR32FAN said:

I don’t see the logic there. I’ve already refuted universalism several times. Luke 12:10, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 12:31, and Mark 3:29 still stand unanswered.

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From page 171 of this very thread:

Luke 12:10 - "...it shall not be forgiven." I know I always come back to this, but if that sin is never, ever forgiven, how is God to become All in all? But He is.

Mark 3:29 - I looked this one up in an interlinear format, and came across that pesky word "aionios." We can argue over this "forever," but the definition I find on Biblehub has both "agelong" and "eternal." Take your pick, but keep in mind that "eternal," "forever" and "forever and ever" are not set in stone.

Matthew 12:31 - As per Luke 12:10.

Matthew 7:21 - Does this verse state that those of "not every one" will NEVER do the the Will of the Father? No, it does not, and UR teaches that God will transform ALL into those that do. What the Word does state is that EVERY knee will bow, EVERY tongue confess...and God will be All in all.

Maybe you missed that post of mine.

Lazarus Short said:

From page 171 of this very thread:

Luke 12:10 - "...it shall not be forgiven." I know I always come back to this, but if that sin is never, ever forgiven, how is God to become All in all? But He is.

Mark 3:29 - I looked this one up in an interlinear format, and came across that pesky word "aionios." We can argue over this "forever," but the definition I find on Biblehub has both "agelong" and "eternal." Take your pick, but keep in mind that "eternal," "forever" and "forever and ever" are not set in stone.

Matthew 12:31 - As per Luke 12:10.

Matthew 7:21 - Does this verse state that those of "not every one" will NEVER do the the Will of the Father? No, it does not, and UR teaches that God will transform ALL into those that do. What the Word does state is that EVERY knee will bow, EVERY tongue confess...and God will be All in all.

Maybe you missed that post of mine.

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About “all in all” that’s a rather vague term compared to Luke 12:10 which is very specific. All in all can mean a lot of things. It could mean all His plan, all His children, all that belong to Him, it doesn’t specify exactly. Luke12:10 leaves no question as to exactly what it is referring to. Matthew 12:31 confirms this statement.

Mark 3:29 uses the word aionios G166 which in every case of the adjective used is in reference to things that are eternal. It is never used indicating something that is temporary.

Matthew 7:21
“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
‭‭
There’s no indication that everyone will do the will of The Father. Your making an assumption based on something that isn’t there. Like it just got pulled out of thin air to make Matthew 7:21 not contradict universalism. In light of Luke 12:10 and Matthew 12:31 it would be correct to say that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. Unless of course you contradict these verses by saying they will be forgiven or you contradict Revelation 21:27 by saying they will enter heaven with unforgiven sins. Universalism just doesn’t line up with the scriptures.

FineLinen said:

Dear BNR: You must be kidding!

Pas in pas is a rather vague term?

Shall we review the scope of pas & ta panta?

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There’s no point because all of what is not specified in the verses.

BNR32FAN said:

There’s no point because all of what is not specified in the verses.

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A LOT is not specified in any one verse, or verses. To settle things, the whole counsel of God must be consulted, compared and concluded. I did just that in the KJV for two years, to see if damnation, annihilation or reconciliation was the answer. I found a fair amount of bad translation, fairly obvious bias and adherence to pre-existing dogmas. By the time I was done, I was a confirmed Universalist.

However, if you fail to carry the UR hypothesis with you, you will probably miss it.

Lazarus Short said:

A LOT is not specified in any one verse, or verses. To settle things, the whole counsel of God must be consulted, compared and concluded. I did just that in the KJV for two years, to see if damnation, annihilation or reconciliation was the answer. I found a fair amount of bad translation, fairly obvious bias and adherence to pre-existing dogmas. By the time I was done, I was a confirmed Universalist.

However, if you fail to carry the UR hypothesis with you, you will probably miss it.

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Well I certainly agree with you about the KJV. I’ve noticed some very loose translations in it as well. It definitely seems to be tailored towards reformed theology. I primarily use the ASV and the NASB and often refer to the Greek interlinear on occasion to check the translations. NASB has its weak spots as well, ASV is pretty good but can be a bit hard to understand at times.

BNR32FAN said:

The Orthodox Church is the church established by the Apostles.

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That is the claim of orthodoxy, not of the Apostles.

BNR32FAN said:

I would like for universalism to be right but according to the scriptures and early church writings it’s not.

Do I think that eternal punishment is wrong? No, I accept that God knows what is best, not me. Who am I to question God’s decisions?

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That's good that you hope it is right. Thanks.
What do you see in the early church writings that tells you Universalism is wrong?

As to the morality of eternal punishment, does God expect less from himself than he does of us? Is it okay for us to not forgive? (even if the perpetrator refuses to apologize or repent) ???