• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

"The Rest of God"

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,918
2,035
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟550,713.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Just an example…
Should we ignore the scripture that clearly says “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work” which does not match your commentary of “God’s Sabbath rest is full-time, not just one day a week.“
Right it was on a specific day. The definite article is definitely defining specifically that On the seventh day God rested from all His Works. And we who have entered into our rest which is the Gospel He again speaks of the seventh day as He did in that certain place, Mt Sinia when He spoke the Commandments. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God for we who have entered into the rest which is the Gospel ALSO cease from our own works as God did from His. Let's be filigint to enter into the rest which is the rest of the Gospel through Christ lest we fall after the same example of unbelief of those who sinned. Whom He was grieved for forty years so their carcasses fell in the desert due to their faithlessness, their sinful disobedience rooted in unbelief.
The issue many have failed to realize is that without Christ and His Spiritual rest we could never keep the day holy. Because we ourselves were defiled. Our mere presence unsanctified keeps us from the sanctity of the commandment.
 
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,918
2,035
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟550,713.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
you're mistaken as that post disregards my explicit request to not debate the issue
Open the thread in another suitable forum if you wish for no debate. Debate is allowed in this forum whether wish for it or not. If you do not want debate maybe you shouldn't post things that are under controversary.
 
Upvote 0

DamianWarS

Follower of Isa Al Masih
Site Supporter
May 15, 2008
10,113
3,436
✟990,709.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Open the thread in another suitable forum if you wish for no debate. Debate is allowed in this forum whether wish for it or not. If you do not want debate maybe you shouldn't post things that are under controversary.
I may still choose which posts I'm interested in or not. I may still make a request to avoid debate even if debate still complies with form rules. The forum allows debate here but it certainly does not require it. I asking that we look at the latter over the former.

In response you may honor these wishes or or ignore them as a reflection of your love in Christ or your right to debate.

Isn't there enough threads where these things can be endlessly debated? I'm not trying to be controversial, I'm sincerely reading a book and commenting on it as I read it. The debate quickly leaves the context and branches off to its own endless direction completely leaving the threads focus and your know exactly what I'm taking about. The thread has already has been guilty of this that no longer are people concerned about the OP but instead an endless debate to a remark from another that they didn't like. It really is mindless but we may raise above that.

If you must debate, then do so exclusively in the context of what I've revealed about the book since that is the context of the thread and don't go off in tangents but pull yourself back in so that each post aligns itself with this value. I believe this is a CF endorsed principal just not policed very well.
 
Last edited:
  • Friendly
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Whats the point of posting scripture if our commentary isn’t even close
The same as the point of posting objections which ignore context as well as text.
Just an example…

Should we ignore the scripture that clearly says “And on the seventh day God rested from all his work” which does not match your commentary of “God’s Sabbath rest is full-time, not just one day a week.“
Not with selective verse picking, where the words preceding your very quote couldn't possibly be a better "match."
"And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world." (Heb 4:3)

Strike one.

There is no scripture that says the 4th commandment became something Jesus does for us
Nor is there any Scripture that says God is Trinity or that Jesus is divine.

Strike two.

"It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those (of Nu 14) who formerly had the gospel preached to them (Gal 3:8, sacrifices and ceremonies) did not go in because of their disobedience." (Heb 4:6)

So those who refused to go into Canaan were refusing to observe the fourth commandment of rest one day a week?

Methinks it is not the commentary that isn't even close, but the objections to the commentary that aren't' even close to the text of Heb 4:6.

instead of us obeying Him the way He commanded, just like the other 9 commandments. At what point does this end. If we decide we want to covet, can we alter His commandment to not covet in some creative way. When we start tinkering with His holy commandments that He wrote and He spoke, I think it’s a very bad idea as we are not above God, we even have warnings for it. Deut 4:2 Prov 30:5-6 Not one jot can be changed. Mat 5:18 and not to break or teach others to break the least of His commandments Mat 5:19-30 which essentially what this teaching is, we do not need to keep the Sabbath according to the commandment, but now Jesus became the 4th commandment and we can profane His holy day doing what we want instead of His ways Isa 58:13, which is basically teaching us to sin as the transgression of God’s law is sin. 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 and ironically what Hebrews 4 is warning us about being in rebellion to God and keeping the Sabbath which remains for the people of God. Resting the way God did as the scripture clearly shows working six days, resting on the seventh day. Hebrews 4:4 Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11
You stated that Jesus is the NT Sabbath, yet still have not found one scripture that supports this
There is as much Scripture supporting NT salvation rest as there is supporting the Trinity or that Jesus is divine.

Strike three.

"There remains then a Sabbath rest (not "day") for the people of God (even after God declared, "They shall never enter my rest, "Ps 95:11), for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
Let us therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall (apostasize) by following their example of disobedience."

How does one "enter" a weekly day of rest?

The issue in Heb 3:7-4-13 is one of not holding firmly, of turning way (rebellion, apostasy), of unbelief of the gospel of salvation rest in Jesus Christ, where we rest from our own works to save and in Jesus' work which saves completely,
where these new Hebrew Christians were being urged not to abandon the gospel and return to Judaism, as their ancestors had abandoned Canaan and all "fell" in the wilderness.

The passage is not only understandable, but also receivable and agreeable to the NT mind.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,342
5,496
USA
✟697,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
"There remains then a Sabbath rest (not "day") for the people of God (even after God declared, "They shall never enter my rest, "Ps 95:11), for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
Let us therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall (apostasize) by following their example of disobedience."
You're not arguing with me...

The Sabbath rest is according to the commandment...

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Is the Sabbath a day? Lets ask God since He is our Creator of the Sabbath commandment, if anyone would know it is God. He not only spoke these Word, He wrote them with His own finger.

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

The very passage you quote disagrees with you

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Luke 4:16 16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

Acts 16:13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down.

Clearly from scripture Jesus didn't turn into a day, the Sabbath or a commandment.

How many times does God need to repeat Himself for one to believe. We have free will to believe the Truth of God's Word which is how we are sanctified instead of leaning on our own understanding leading us away from God's Truth Proverbs 14:12
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You're not arguing with me...
Correct, I am presenting the NT word of God
to which absurd and meritless objections to its truth, without Biblical demonstrations in agreement with NT apostolic teaching, are duly noted.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
13,342
5,496
USA
✟697,455.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Correct, I am presenting the NT word of God
to which absurd and meritless objections to its truth, without Biblical demonstrations in agreement with NT apostolic teaching, are duly noted.
Only if you do not believe God and His Word. To claim the Sabbath is not the seventh day, the day God rested in His very own Words is not an argument with humans as shown through clear scripture in God's holy Word.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Only if you do not believe God and His Word. To claim the Sabbath is not the seventh day, the day God rested in His very own Words is not an argument with humans as shown through clear scripture in God's holy Word.
Straw man. . .not uncommon.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
9,295
2,554
55
Northeast
✟237,235.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In response you may honor these wishes...
This passage came to my mind

Tying it in with this from the OP
"...we uniquely take up his invitation by keeping Sabbath, both as a day and as an attiude"

Surely one of the attitudes of the Sabbath is to treat others as we want them to treat us, thus refraining from our own work.
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟698,442.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Correct, I am presenting the NT word of God to which absurd and meritless objections to its truth, without Biblical demonstrations in agreement with NT apostolic teaching, are duly noted.
Sister, you are using the human Sabbath view of the Jews of doing no work at all on the Sabbath to stop doing God's given good works. There is another mentioned "rest" in the scriptures, but neither of these two "rest" types is an excuse to stop doing God's good works. Works given by God to help us gain mastery over sin!

“Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:6-7 NLT)​

This other "rest" below that can be confused with the "day" of "rest" actually does God's good works and is not an excuse to stop doing God's good works! It is not like Judaism's view of doing no work at all on the Sabbath when Jesus allows good works on the Sabbath. What God says we must stop doing on the Sabbath "day" are our own works that are different from God's good works. This other "rest" is not another "day" of "rest" like the Sabbath message in Hebrews. The fact is that neither of these two "rest" types accomplish freeing you to continue sinning by disobeying God's given good works, the one that is a "day" and the one that is not a "day".

Then Jesus said, “Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sister, you are using the human Sabbath view of the Jews of doing no work at all on the Sabbath to stop doing God's given good works.
I don't think so.

We rest from our own work to save (Eph 2:8-9) and in Christ's work which saves (Sabbath rest of God, Heb 4:9-11).
And we build (work) on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ, with either durable work (pure Christian doctrine and living), or
with worthless work (weak, spiritless teaching) and life, and on which work depends our reward, but not our salvation (1 Co 3:12-15).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟698,442.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
We rest from our own work to save (Eph 2:8-9)
Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, November 17, 2023 at 9:38 AM EST! The passage puts us to work not rest! It says God forgives our past sins as a gift to put us to "work" and not to give us rest from the "work" He planned for us long ago. The word "salvation" is not in the original Greek but was added by the translators in place of the "gift" of initial forgiveness, making the passage say we do not need to "work" when the original actually says He wants us to do the "work" God planned for us long ago. God forgives so that we can do the good "work" He planned for us long ago. He expects "work" and not to rest from us who have received the gift of initial forgiveness for past sins. The gift of crediting righteousness for having believed grants initial forgiveness for prior sins for having "believed". Faith requires at least one act of God's given works of righteousness and you get that first act as a gift when God credits your having believed, as your first act of "righteousness", completing your faith before doing any additional regular works of righteousness at the temple in the case of David.

God saved you by his grace when you believed (a gift). And you can’t take credit for this (gift); it is a gift from God. Salvation/this gift is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things/work (ergon) he planned for us long ago. (Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​
and in Christ's work which saves (Sabbath rest of God, Heb 4:9-11).
Rest will not save you from your slavery to sin! Growing in obeying God through the practice gained through forgiveness gives mastery over sin that saves. God gives us mastery over sin in the new covenant by adding one more Eleventh Commandment to the previous Ten Commandments. Human beings have said Jesus replaced His Ten Commandments with an Eleventh Commandment when Jesus asks us to obey "all" His Eleven Commandments in the following passage where, having answered with the previous Ten Commandments, Jesus adds "one more thing you haven't done", bringing the total after Him of Eleven Commandments. The following passage tells us that Jesus has given us an Eleventh Commandment with the phrase "one thing you haven't done", after answering the question with: you know "the commandments"! Jesus' answer makes the "one thing you haven't done" an additional Eleventh Commandment. Consistent with us knowing the additional Eleventh Commandment in the new covenant of following Jesus' example. Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human system of "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar, instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His previous Ten Commandments as well as the new Eleventh Commandment.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)​

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)​
And we build (work) on that foundation, which is Jesus Christ, with either durable work (pure Christian doctrine and living), or
with worthless work (weak, spiritless) teaching and life, and on which work depends our reward, but not our salvation (1 Co 3:12-15).
Paul tells us the foundation is to do like Jesus who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our model "Spirit" to follow and not the wrongly understood Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments Jesus wants obeyed in the above passage in Luke to "inherit eternal life". The difference Paul speaks of after Jesus than before Jesus is that God is no longer reliant on telling us what to do in the written Ten Commandments in stone that Judaism failed to obey. They failed to obey the instructions written in stone as one may fail to properly replace a window without being shown what to do, relying on a brief manual they fail to fully obey. God, recognizing the failure of the written Ten Commandments on the resulting sons of Hagar in Judaism, now offers instead the superior glory of Jesus showing us what to do through the model "Spirit" of Jesus to follow in God's original desire to have sons of Sarah and not sons of Hagar, made clear in the following passage. My example analogy following of replacing a window will show through our common experience how more complete it is to be shown instead of being told what to do. Now it is about obeying the previous Ten Commandments as Jesus obeyed them in the Eleventh Commandment, which includes the previous Ten Commandments, instead of us being told in stone, now shown through the model "Spirit" of Jesus, which people wrongly think is the Holy Spirit they are to follow when it is Jesus' exemplary life who is the model "Spirit" to follow made clear in the following passage from Paul. Critical to the proper understanding of this passage is that God is Spirit: Jesus being God is Spirit. What is compared is Jesus' example of obedience to the Ten Commandments as more complete than the written Ten Commandments. To understand this comparison I will use the analogy of replacing a broken window. No doubt it is more complete to follow a professional installer's example than partially follow the instructions in a brief manual. The reason the old written law ends in death for Judaism is that they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin that Paul protects against by focusing on sin rather than obeying human law as Judaism did. Judaism obeyed the commandment of not misusing God's name by not pronouncing His name at all. This incomplete obedience skipped the law's purpose to remove sin from our character. They would have learned to use God's name without sinning had they done what God asked instead of replacing what God asked with their own "human effort" to obey that did not remove the sin that doing what God asked would have removed.

We are confident of all this because of our great trust in God through Christ (as the model "Spirit" to follow). It is not that we think we are qualified to do anything on our own (like excusing our disobedience of the Ten Commandments as coming from the Holy Spirit). Our qualification comes from God (sending us Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). This is a covenant not of the letter (Ten Commandments), but of the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow and not the Holy Spirit used as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments when Jesus obeyed them). The letter ends in death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin); but the Spirit (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow) gives life (the removal of sin). The old way (God's "order" by the prophet Moses), with letters etched in stone (Ten Commandments), led to death (sabotaged by Judaism to not remove sin), though it began with such glory (leading to righteousness) that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses’ face. For his face shone with the glory of God (which is His righteousness expressed in the Ten Commandments), even though the brightness was already fading away (Judaism's unwillingness to obey "all" the Ten Commandments). Shouldn’t we expect far greater glory under the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), now that the Holy (added by the translators) Spirit (not the Holy Spirit but Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow) gives life? If the old way (written letters etched in stone), which brings condemnation (Judaism not fully obeying "all" the Ten Commandments by replacing them with human "law"), was glorious (leading to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), which makes us right with God (removes sin)! In fact, that first glory (which led to righteousness) was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory (leading to righteousness) of the new way (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow). So if the old way (written letters etched in stone), which has been replaced, was glorious (led to righteousness), how much more glorious (leading to righteousness) is the new (Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow), which remains forever! Since this new way (of following the model "Spirit" of Jesus, rather than Judaism's human "law") gives us such confidence, we can be very bold (learning to use God's name properly, which Judaism does not). We are not like Moses, who put a veil over his face so the people of Israel would not see the glory (of God's righteousness), even though it was destined to fade away (by Judaism's unwillingness to obey all the Ten Commandments). But the people’s minds were hardened (to not obey all the Ten Commandments), and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth (of the failure of replacing God's Commandments with their own human law). And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ (as the model "Spirit" to follow). Yes, even today when they read Moses’ writings, their hearts are covered with that veil, and they do not understand (they failed to obey all of God's Ten Commandments by substituting them with human "law"). But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. For the Lord is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" to follow who obeyed the Ten Commandments as our example and Paul is not referring to the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments), and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom (from sin and not from God's Ten Commandments). So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord (in obeying the Ten Commandments). And the Lord—who is the Spirit (Jesus is the model "Spirit" Paul is telling us to follow and not the Holy Spirit, whose job is to tell us things through prophets and remind us of Jesus as the model "Spirit" to follow)—makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image. (2 Corinthians 3:4-18 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, November 17, 2023 at 9:38 AM EST! The passage puts us to work not rest!
Salvation is the NT rest (coming out from under God's wrath, Ro 5:9, and condemnation of all mankind, Ro 5:18) from our own good works so that no one, not one, has anything about which he can boast (Eph 2:8-9). All of it, every bit of turning God's wrath and condemnation away from the believer and reconciling him to God is simply by faith, and nothing else.

Salvation in time is two phases:
1) rest from turning away God's wrath by our own good works, and resting in Jesus' finished work on the cross to turn away that wrath on our sin, thereby reconciling us to God, and followed by
2) obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
It says God forgives our past sins as a gift to put us to "work" and not to give us rest from the "work" He planned for us long ago. The word "salvation" is not in the original Greek
The word "save" (sozo) is in the original Greek of Eph 2:8. . ."For by grace you are having been saved through faith. . .not of works, lest anyone should boast."
 
Upvote 0

guevaraj

an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins
Site Supporter
Mar 31, 2019
2,383
188
54
South Bend, IN
Visit site
✟698,442.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Salvation is the NT rest
Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, November 24, 2023 at 9:36 AM EST! Salvation from sin takes work to gain mastery over sin and you have misapplied the rest "day" of the Sabbath in the book of Hebrews to remove the need to work hard to growth thanks to Jesus many forgivnesses to learn to obey through practice the Eleven Commandments. We are to "work hard" as Abraham showed when he obeyed God to the extent of being willing to sacrifice his only son. You do not grow that kind of faith by resting but by working hard for a very long time. He obeyed a lot prior to having the trust to obey that demand from God. Abraham practiced obedience to gain mastery over sin, unlike the disobedience of Cain in the following passage.

“Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:6-7 NLT)​
(coming out from under God's wrath, Ro 5:9, and condemnation of all mankind, Ro 5:18) from our own good works so that no one, not one, has anything about which he can boast (Eph 2:8-9).
That initial forgiveness of all past sins refers to the gift that David received without doing work at the temple when he believed, like the thief on the cross, which is not how one lives by faith under grace by working hard to gain mastery over sin and not resting. Had the thief on the cross lived longer, he would have had to work to gain mastery over sin like all other Jews daily at the temple.
All of it, every bit of turning God's wrath and condemnation away from the believer and reconciling him to God is simply by faith, and nothing else.
There is no faith without doing all the works of righteousness to gain mastery over sin at the temple during the period of grace before judgment.

That’s the whole story. Here now is my final conclusion: Fear God and obey his commands, for this is everyone’s duty. God will judge us for everything we do, including every secret thing, whether good or bad. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 NLT)​
Salvation in time is two phases:
1) rest from turning away God's wrath by our own good works, and resting in Jesus' finished work on the cross to turn away that wrath on our sin, thereby reconciling us to God, and followed by
Faith is not rest, requiring us to "work hard" to gain mastery over sin at the temple.
2) obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).
That is based on a misidentification of the "Spirit" of Jesus as the Holy Spirit when it is Jesus who is our role model "Spirit" to follow. Jesus correctly obeyed all the Ten Commandments as our example to follow, and we are not to follow Judaism's incomplete obedience, replacing them with our own human traditions. The "Spirit" that Paul speaks of to follow is not the Holy Spirit as an excuse to disobey the Ten Commandments, as Judaism disobeyed them when Jesus corrected them from human tradition, giving us one more in the new Eleventh Commandment to follow Jesus as our role model "Spirit" that obeyed them to gain mastery over sin.
The word "save" (sozo) is in the original Greek of Eph 2:8. . ."For by grace you are having been saved through faith. . .not of works, lest anyone should boast."
You have simplified it to something false! What is "not of works, lest anyone should boast", is the gift David received of initial forgiveness when you first believe, without having done the regular works at the temple to gain forgiveness. Salvation by faith requires working hard to gain mastery over sin at the temple, having been given the time to grow through practice during the period of grace before judgment.

Dear friends, you always followed my instructions when I was with you. And now that I am away, it is even more important. Work hard to show the results of your salvation, obeying God with deep reverence and fear. For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him. Do everything without complaining and arguing, so that no one can criticize you. Live clean, innocent lives as children of God, shining like bright lights in a world full of crooked and perverse people. Hold firmly to the word of life; then, on the day of Christ’s return, I will be proud that I did not run the race in vain and that my work was not useless. But I will rejoice even if I lose my life, pouring it out like a liquid offering to God, just like your faithful service is an offering to God. And I want all of you to share that joy. Yes, you should rejoice, and I will share your joy. (Philippians 2:12-18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,037
7,483
North Carolina
✟342,369.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, November 24, 2023 at 9:36 AM EST! Salvation from sin takes work to gain mastery over sin and you have misapplied the rest "day" of the Sabbath in the book of Hebrews to remove the need to work hard to growth thanks to Jesus many forgivnesses to learn to obey through practice the Eleven Commandments. We are to "work hard" as Abraham showed when he obeyed God to the extent of being willing to sacrifice his only son. You do not grow that kind of faith by resting but by working hard for a very long time. He obeyed a lot prior to having the trust to obey that demand from God. Abraham practiced obedience to gain mastery over sin, unlike the disobedience of Cain in the following passage.
You misunderstand salvation through faith. . .not by works (Eph 2:8-9). That is your choice.
“Why are you so angry?” the LORD asked Cain. “Why do you look so dejected? You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master.” (Genesis 4:6-7 NLT)​

That initial forgiveness of all past sins refers to the gift that David received without doing work at the temple when he believed, like the thief on the cross, which is not how one lives by faith under grace
Not talking about living by grace. Talking about salvation of Eph 2:8-9 by grace.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,055
2,542
✟262,691.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Open the thread in another suitable forum if you wish for no debate.
And which would that be? I have seen the same posters over and over in other forums do this.
Debate is allowed in this forum whether wish for it or not.
And so it also is with discussions on other forums.
If you do not want debate maybe you shouldn't post things that are under controversary.
I asked one time for those posts to be moved here. I never received a response at all. Any one here up to requesting a forum for Sabbath and new covenant? That way it can be discussed without this stuff? There are several areas on this site for these guys. but none specific concerning us. And they will not move their posts to appropriate Sabbath areas when they do this in the other forums. You cannot count on their goodwill and charity in this stuff.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HIM
Upvote 0

HIM

Friend
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2018
4,918
2,035
59
Alabama
Visit site
✟550,713.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And which would that be? I have seen the same posters over and over in other forums do this.

And so it also is with discussions on other forums.

I asked one time for those posts to be moved here. I never received a response at all. Any one here up to requesting a forum for Sabbath and new covenant? That way it can be discussed without this stuff? There are several areas on this site for these guys. but none specific concerning us. And they will not move their posts to appropriate Sabbath areas when they do this in the other forums. You cannot count on their goodwill and charity in this stuff.
Maybe try the Spiritual growth forum or Christian congregation forums there is no debate there for the most part.
I am reporting your post so someone more qualified can address some of your other questions.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,055
2,542
✟262,691.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Upvote 0