The Religious Method

[tonybeer]

I was quoting statistics from countries in the last few years. The top countries for morality are all generally very secular. This does not mean that there are secular countries that have above average immorality.
It does however mean that if you live in a very secular country you are less likely to be subject to rape/murder etc.

 

[Johnnz]

I was quoting statistics from countries in the last few years. The top countries for morality are all generally very secular. This does not mean that there are secular countries that have above average immorality.
It does however mean that if you live in a very secular country you are less likely to be subject to rape/murder etc.

If you look at this a bit more closely you will generally find that its countries with a strong Christian tradition, which our secular proponents have inherited, that have the greatest commitment to the values of human life and dignity. No other society in history has exhibited such a development.

John
NZ

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I'm not sure you could actually call North Korea a secular country, given the myths and cult of personality surrounding Kim Il-Sung and the fact that he is still referred to as the countries "eternal leader", even though he died in 1994.

North Korea is an atheist state both in the sense that the majority of people living there are irreligious (according to The State of Religion Atlas) and that the only religions permitted to exist are those sponsered by the state (according to hrw.org). Individual worship is not allowed.

Claiming the bizarre mythos surrounding Kim Il-Sung somehow makes it a religious state is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: atheists are not irrational, yet atheists in North Korea have many irrational beliefs about their long-dead leader, therefore atheists in North Korea cannot be "true" atheists.

Many atheists try to avoid criticisms of atheistic countries by acting as though irrationality equals religion.

 

[tonybeer]

If you look at this a bit more closely you will generally find that its countries with a strong Christian tradition, which our secular proponents have inherited, that have the greatest commitment to the values of human life and dignity. No other society in history has exhibited such a development.

John
NZ

Possibly, or it could be that countries with better education are more likely to make more atheists. Or a combination of lots of these.

Iwas actually thinking about Scandanavian countries, where atheism is the norm. Although they did have Christianity, it wasn't as ingrained as in places like the UK.

Islamic laws are very harsh on crime, yet these countries don't come out high on the morality scale. Islam (afaik) has a similar attitude as Christianity about being a good human being.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Iwas actually thinking about Scandanavian countries, where atheism is the norm. Although they did have Christianity, it wasn't as ingrained as in places like the UK.

Islamic laws are very harsh on crime, yet these countries don't come out high on the morality scale. Islam (afaik) has a similar attitude as Christianity about being a good human being.

Contrary to popular belief, France - rather than any Scandinavian country - is the most secularised in Europe. Their homicide rate is marginally higher than Norway, Sweden or Denmark but still fairly low (around 1.4 per 100,000).

Islamic countries have a lower homicide rate than you'd think: Saudi Arabia has a homicide rate of 1.0, Egypt 1.2, Afghanistan 2.4, Jordan 1.8, Iraq 2.0 and Libya 2.9. To put that in perspective, the USA has a homicide rate of 5.0.

However ... my source (UNODC Global Study on Homicide) collected much of its data as early as 2004 and was published in 2011 - before the Arab Spring uprising - so it may be a little out of date.

[EDIT] This will probably be easier to analyse than pawing through mountains of statistics:

(UNODC stats from economist.com)

 

[Elendur]

Contrary to popular belief, France - rather than any Scandinavian country - is the most secularised in Europe. Their homicide rate is marginally higher than Norway, Sweden or Denmark but still fairly low (around 1.4 per 100,000).

Islamic countries have a lower homicide rate than you'd think: Saudi Arabia has a homicide rate of 1.0, Egypt 1.2, Afghanistan 2.4, Jordan 1.8, Iraq 2.0 and Libya 2.9. To put that in perspective, the USA has a homicide rate of 5.0.

However ... my source (UNODC Global Study on Homicide) collected much of its data as early as 2004 and was published in 2011 - before the Arab Spring uprising - so it may be a little out of date.

[EDIT] This will probably be easier to analyse than pawing through mountains of statistics:

{picture}

(UNODC stats from economist.com)

Thanks for the information figure 1.13, page 26 was of personal interest for me (homicide trends in Europe, northern Europe).

+1

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Aside from North Korea and pretty much every single other Communist country which has ever existed.

The people and government of North Korea worships the ruling family as supernatual. That's religion.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

The people and government of North Korea worships the ruling family as supernatual. That's religion.

As far as I know, North Koreans do not believe Kim Il-Sung survived death, nor to they believe praying to him will influence their lives.

A lot of anti-religious regimes replace traditional religions with their own enforced set of beliefs. During the French Revolution, Notre Dame was re-named the "Temple of Reason". I don't think that makes the concept of reason a deity. As I said before, atheists try to avoid this problem by labelling all irrational and bizarre beliefs as religious.

I vaguely remember a saying which went something like "People who do not believe in God don't believe in nothing - they'll believe in anything."

 

[tonybeer]

To put that in perspective, the USA has a homicide rate of 5.0.

That's because they (to quote an NRA spokesman) "don't have enough guns".

On a more serious note, I think quite a few Christian laws are good and form some of the basis of secular law. Love thy neighbour etc is great, however the problems come when Christians start discriminating against homosexuals and telling young people that sexual urges are sins or that atheists are the devil. Or they go and invade foreign countries because thats what God would want. This really harms people (not that I'm accusing all Christians of this).

Atheists can be irrational. I know one who believes in Ghosts, though I think this is to do with his Dad dying young and a real want to believe despite evidence.


More statistics, this time Charitable assistance (as percentage of Gross national Income), both government and private:
1. Sweden
2. Norway
3.Luxembourg
4. Denmark

All very secular countries.
You can see the rest at List of governments by development aid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[tonybeer]

I vaguely remember a saying which went something like "People who do not believe in God don't believe in nothing - they'll believe in anything."

That's a pretty untruthful saying. Atheists tend to (but not exclusively as per my previous post) only believe in things that there is evidence for. In no way do they believe in anything and is the exact opposite of the way most separate what is real from what is not.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

That's because they (to quote an NRA spokesman) "don't have enough guns".

I assume you're joking (the internet has broken my sarcasm detector ) but another lesser-known fact about Scandinavian countries is that they have very liberal guns laws. Yet in 2010, the USA had 11,493 deaths by firearms, not including suicides (link). Sweden by contrast had a mere 18 gun homicides. Eighteen (link).

As we saw, Scandinavian countries have a lower homicide rate than the USA - but I don't know how much of this can be attributed to gun violence or gun control. And of course, the USA has a much higher population than Sweden or any Scandinavian country.

 

[tonybeer]

I assume you're joking (the internet has broken my sarcasm detector ) but another lesser-known fact about Scandinavian countries is that they have very liberal guns laws. Yet in 2010, the USA had 11,493 deaths by firearms, not including suicides (link). Sweden by contrast had a mere 18 gun homicides. Eighteen (link).

As we saw, Scandinavian countries have a lower homicide rate than the USA - but I don't know how much of this can be attributed to gun violence or gun control. And of course, the USA has a much higher population than Sweden or any Scandinavian country.

Yes I was joking. This is seriously what I heard an NRA spokesman say. I didn't mean to bring in guns at all to the discussion.

That is the trouble with having a conversation over the internet. You can't use facial expressions or tone of voice that you would usually to show you are being jokey/serious/tongue in cheek. THis is why they tend to result in slanging matches!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I assume you're joking (the internet has broken my sarcasm detector ) but another lesser-known fact about Scandinavian countries is that they have very liberal guns laws. Yet in 2010, the USA had 11,493 deaths by firearms, not including suicides (link). Sweden by contrast had a mere 18 gun homicides. Eighteen (link).

As we saw, Scandinavian countries have a lower homicide rate than the USA - but I don't know how much of this can be attributed to gun violence or gun control. And of course, the USA has a much higher population than Sweden or any Scandinavian country.

It's quite easy to calculate the rate.

The US had 11,493 deaths per 300,000,000 people, which is about 4 x 10[sup]-5[/sup] per person.
Sweden had 18 per 19,500,000 people, which is 9 x 10[sup]-7[/sup] per person.

In other words, the US has over 41 times more gun homicides after we account for population.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

It's quite easy to calculate the rate.

The US had 11,493 deaths per 300,000,000 people, which is about 4 x 10[sup]-5[/sup] per person.
Sweden had 18 per 19,500,000 people, which is 9 x 10[sup]-7[/sup] per person.

In other words, the US has over 41 times more gun homicides after we account for population.

The links I mentioned in my previous post did mention the number of gun deaths per 100,000. I just didn't look hard enough.

Sweden: 0.19 (2010)
USA: 3.7 (2009)

 

[Tomk80]

North Korea is an atheist state both in the sense that the majority of people living there are irreligious (according to The State of Religion Atlas) and that the only religions permitted to exist are those sponsered by the state (according to hrw.org). Individual worship is not allowed.

Claiming the bizarre mythos surrounding Kim Il-Sung somehow makes it a religious state is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: atheists are not irrational, yet atheists in North Korea have many irrational beliefs about their long-dead leader, therefore atheists in North Korea cannot be "true" atheists.

Many atheists try to avoid criticisms of atheistic countries by acting as though irrationality equals religion.

1) I was talking about a secularist state. There is a distinct difference between secularism and atheism. The original statement concerned secularism, not atheism. Banning certain religions is very far fram any definition of secularism I am aware of.
2) I never stated that atheists cannot be irrational.
3) What makes me state that North Korea may very well be closer to a religion, or at least a quasi-religion, is that they have turned their leaders into at least a quasi-deities, with supernatural feats like Kim Il-Sung turning a pine cone into a hand grenade to blow up tanks and single-handedly defeating the Japanese, and Kim Jong Ils birth and death being accompanied by supernatural events. Something that to my knowledge was never done with the leaders of the Soviet Union or China (although I may be wrong on this). They also praise them on important days like weddings and their death dates.
4) I never stated that all states with atheist leaders are better than religious states.

 

[Michael]

It's quite easy to calculate the rate.

The US had 11,493 deaths per 300,000,000 people, which is about 4 x 10[sup]-5[/sup] per person.
Sweden had 18 per 19,500,000 people, which is 9 x 10[sup]-7[/sup] per person.

In other words, the US has over 41 times more gun homicides after we account for population.

That's actually a fascinating statistic when you think about it. The obvious question is "Why?".

 

[Elendur]

That's actually a fascinating statistic when you think about it. The obvious question is "Why?".

Because it's too cold in Sweden to be thinking about going shooting people

 

[Greg1234]

Again, no, I'm not. Again, I'm not assuming that theism should produce something of such a nature, I'm asking if it has.

And you are expecting an answer. For whatever answer you are expecting, your assumptions are in effect. If I say yes, then I uphold your description. If I say no, then I uphold your description. My answer is why would you expect theism to produce something like that?" In other words, what makes atoms valid?

Then your entire objection is flawed because you're equivocating; you're substituting your own definition of the word 'mind' or 'atom' and changing your opponents' arguments completely.

I simply rejected his definition or view of the phenomenon. With that rejection came a rejection of his label (mind). The same goes with you and "atom." I haven't change your arguments.

No, I'm sticking with atoms;

That's your prerogative.

So. Which phenomena is atomic theory not congurent with?

The description for the label ("atom") is not congruent with the phenomena you are attempting to explain.

This makes less than no sense. Do you know why we trust science over religion?

It's not between science and religion. You need to ask why we trust materialism over theism.

 

[Michael]

Because it's too cold in Sweden to be thinking about going shooting people

There's probably a population density and temperature factor in there somewhere alright.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

1) I was talking about a secularist state. There is a distinct difference between secularism and atheism. The original statement concerned secularism, not atheism. Banning certain religions is very far fram any definition of secularism I am aware of.
2) I never stated that atheists cannot be irrational.
3) What makes me state that North Korea may very well be closer to a religion, or at least a quasi-religion, is that they have turned their leaders into at least a quasi-deities, with supernatural feats like Kim Il-Sung turning a pine cone into a hand grenade to blow up tanks and single-handedly defeating the Japanese, and Kim Jong Ils birth and death being accompanied by supernatural events. Something that to my knowledge was never done with the leaders of the Soviet Union or China (although I may be wrong on this). They also praise them on important days like weddings and their death dates.
4) I never stated that all states with atheist leaders are better than religious states.

Yes I know you weren't saying that states with atheist leaders are better than states with religious leaders. I also know that a secular state is not the same as an aggressively anti-religious state.

As for North Korea, as I mentioned to Wiccan_Child many anti-religious states (almost all of them in fact) try to replace religion with another enforced set of beliefs, no doubt so that they can use the power religious rituals have for their own ends. I used the Temple of Reason during the French Revolution as an example. An irrational belief isn't automatically a religious belief.

I remember another user on a separate thread (I can't remember which unfortunately) pointed out that while secular states are generally more peaceful than religious states*, anti-religious states were far more violent and bloody than both. States which have tried to stamp out religion have killed more people in a much shorter amount of time than Christianity has.


*Although even highly religious states such as those in the Middle East have a lower homicide rate than you would expect.