The real Total Annihilation Vs Starcraft!

[Pope Gonzo]

Dragonnia, just out of curiosity, have you played any map other than Big Game Hunters in your hundreds of Starcraft games?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Dragonnia, just out of curiosity, have you played any map other than Big Game Hunters in your hundreds of Starcraft games?

Hunters and $$$TEHMONEYMAP$$$ don't count.

 

[Noddingdog]

OK, here we go.

I don't know why you all keep bringing up the terrain advantages in TA. I have no idea what it's like in TA, but in Starcraft there is a percentage difference of hits missed when you are on low ground and on high ground.

In TA you can't use lasers to hit units on cliffs, etc., you have to use vertical launch rockets, lob shells up there or of course use planes. Terrain makes a big difference.

So, Starcraft does have terrain advantages/disadvantages. Also, in Starcraft, if you hide your units behind trees you 'get' a 30% chance that your enemy will miss your units by covering or concealing yourself.

As in TA. See Pyro tree-clearing comment earlier.

As far as units go: the unit placement and position of your troops can have a huge impact on the game and strategy involved; and I feel that only Starcraft fans can truly appreciate this. For instance, pretend you are offensive bunker rushing an enemy's expansion: you have two tanks; two scv's; two goliaths; and a mixture of marines, firebats, and medics. You start them all at once, but leave them just behind the enemy's fog of war so he can't see you. You immediately start building one bunker and one missile turret with your two scv's. When construction is halfway done you move one tank just behind and one just in front of your turret and siege them. Since the enemy can now see one of your tanks, the one in front of your turret, you immediately bunker your marines and firebats for protection. You also move and HoLD the two goliaths near your tanks while leaving your two scv's to repair the buildings. After the enemy's initial rush to overtake your offensive bunkering you take one scv to build another bunker closer into their expansion while the other scv fixes whatever needs to be repaired. After the second bunker is finished you move the tank that was in the back to the front of the line...
Well, you just continue with this strategy until you are either in his expansion and have overtaken it, or he has defeated your attempt - and the game just goes on from there...

Absolutely, and the same applies to TA once again. Take for example the old classic Vulcan placement. The Vulcan is a huge-costing massively powerful gattling long range plasma cannon, uses loads of resources, costs loads and takes ages to turn. It's unlikely you'll get one built. But, build one in a valley, and you'll regret it because the shells won't make it out of the valley... they'll just hit the sides. DOH! Similarly, if all your subs are clustered together, they are easy fodder for attacking subs because they have not been positioned strategically: 3-5 surrounding subs could remove them with ease. Take also the example of the cross-fire heavy laser towers: mowing the enemy down is great fun when you have two heavy laser towers, one on one hill and one on another with a valley in between.

Anyway, the unit control and placement in Starcraft is critically important. If you're not careful then your opponent can upset what would be your advantage, eventually costing you the game...

Indeed, as in TA.

In Starcraft, I felt that one of the biggest high points of the game was how the player could make the units work dynamically with each other. For instance, you could counter against a Terran rush of marines with dragoons and zealots. Zealots for the 'meat' of the army and dragoons for the range. In other words; it really takes at least two different types of units or more that all work dynamically and competitively with each other to competently secure a win in the game. And, the mixture of units constantly changes as the opponent's strategy does; you counter his units differently as the game progresses. So, I do really like the 'closeness' I feel with the bases and units. Starcraft is a game based more on the battle perspective than an overall war.

Yep... unfortunately this also applies to TA. If you send over Brawlers I'll use Cobras, Crashers, Slashers, Pulverisers, Searchers, Hydras, Shredders, Vamps, or even Hurricanes: whatever I can use to hit your air. If I send an attack force to you I'll typically include anti-air; maybe Crashers or Slashers, longer range artillery; Thuds or Raiders, close-combat units; AKs or Instigators, and long range rocket KBots (Storms). So the mix does apply to TA as well.

 

[Noddingdog]

The major terrain disadvantage is that your units will drive headfirst into a mountain and stay there for 15 minutes.

LOL! Not quite, ThePhoenix. Units do have intelligence actually, and are very able to guide themselves.

The units need less management though. Starcraft you are constantly stimming, assigning medics, retreating units, etc. TA its very much click attack, and wait (trust me, I micro in TA, most of my friends don't, and it's much easier to avoid micro entirely in the game then in starcraft).

TA is only attack and wait from a new player's perspective. An experienced player typically clicks attack and then guides and tracks his units on the way there. Plus don't forget the dogfighting aspect with planes and especially fighters: you need to be a good dogfighter to come out alive. TA is not designed for micromanagement, it's designed for war and deep strategy. Micromanagement was one of the bad things to be eliminated.

So more names = better units? I think not.

Never said that, but it might mean a better game

The fact is, there are 3 major categories of counters (excluding navel, which I never really use because me and a few friends proved using Ror Shock that Nukes>>Navel units)

You are forgetting that nukes take ages to build, naval units don't. And last time I checked naval units can move, nukes take a while to reach target, so couldn't said naval units... move out of the way?

Land counters, Air counters, and defenses. Starcraft forces you to think very hard about which one to use.

As does TA.

For instance Scourge is a very good counter to valkeries, but a poor one to battlecruisers.

And Crashers are good at anti-air but poor at attacking ground units. However, Storms are excellent Lv1 ground attack but almost useless at anti-air.

You HAVE to know what your opponent is doing to win, and the game is very tactical. TA is long-term strategic, which would be better if it had more long term strategies, and less reason to hole up in your base with Fusions and Mohos.

TA is not just long-term: it can be played short, medium or long term. It does have long term strats: Berthas, Nukes, Vulcs, rushes, massive attacks, spies, pincers... and I could go on but I won't.

Starcraft plays very well on small maps. TA, thanks to the commander, sucks utterly on small maps, since rushing is completely impossible (except against newbies, trust me I can rush, but I can't be rushed, I took out 25 guys with my commander once). Starcraft works well on everything from 64x64 tiny maps to something 16 times larger, a 256x256 epic map. TA ranges from 8x8 to 25x25 (practically, larger maps are nearly unplayable). That's a range of only 10 times, making it LESS flexible then starcraft.

Rushing is not impossible, it is very feasible and used widely. The Commander is very powerful but NOT invincible. I myself am very good on the D-gun (once took out 50+ flashes in a few waves) but am still sometimes overwhelmed by rushing, this can happen to anyone. Thus TA is also good on small maps.

Larger maps are very playable: huge sea attacks, multiple nukes, Berthas, vulcs, spies, pincers (hey, do I see a pattern here? ) TA is not LESS flexible but rather MORE flexible: for example, Starcraft's limited-resources idea can seriously hinder a game, making it very dull once resources run dry. TA can have limited or unlimited resources.

 

[Bowser]

Larger maps are very playable: huge sea attacks, multiple nukes, Berthas, vulcs, spies, pincers (hey, do I see a pattern here? ) TA is not LESS flexible but rather MORE flexible: for example, Starcraft's limited-resources idea can seriously hinder a game, making it very dull once resources run dry. TA can have limited or unlimited resources.

Actually, the limited resources in Starcraft make the game very intense to play. You have to be very serious and you have to know the strategies and stats of the units or you risk losing the game. Sure, there's a second chance and you can make a fine comeback, but at the same time it isn't just given to you.

 

[dragannia]

Dragonnia, just out of curiosity, have you played any map other than Big Game Hunters in your hundreds of Starcraft games?

Of course I have, in my early days I just picked out maps at random. And it's Dagannia, not Dragonnia.

Starcraft plays very well on small maps. TA, thanks to the commander, sucks utterly on small maps, since rushing is completely impossible (except against newbies, trust me I can rush, but I can't be rushed, I took out 25 guys with my commander once). Starcraft works well on everything from 64x64 tiny maps to something 16 times larger, a 256x256 epic map. TA ranges from 8x8 to 25x25 (practically, larger maps are nearly unplayable). That's a range of only 10 times, making it LESS flexible then starcraft.

Rushing can easily win over a Commander. In multiplayer games people usually play 1000 metal and energy starting. D-Gun takes 400. All they have to do is go around to your energy plants and you've suddenly run out of energy. And if they're spread out D-Gun would be much less effective.

Actually, the limited resources in Starcraft make the game very intense to play. You have to be very serious and you have to know the strategies and stats of the units or you risk losing the game. Sure, there's a second chance and you can make a fine comeback, but at the same time it isn't just given to you.

Depends on how you think I guess. TA has a lot off seriousness too. You MUST expand to get decent supplies of metal (metal maps excluded). This also applies for Geothermal vents.

 

[ThePhoenix]

LOL! Not quite, ThePhoenix. Units do have intelligence actually, and are very able to guide themselves.

I play this game quite frequently, I'm not saying it's bad, but the AI SUCKS. It is hard to describe exactly how frustrating it is to manuver large groups of units over varied terrain to someone who hasn't played the game. Don't pretend it's not a problem, because it is. Unit pathing is beyond bad, and that's a fact.

TA is only attack and wait from a new player's perspective. An experienced player typically clicks attack and then guides and tracks his units on the way there. Plus don't forget the dogfighting aspect with planes and especially fighters: you need to be a good dogfighter to come out alive. TA is not designed for micromanagement, it's designed for war and deep strategy. Micromanagement was one of the bad things to be eliminated.

Because otherwise they run into mountans, and other genius maneuvers. And please explain why dogfighting is a good idea, I've found flakkers, jethros, and samsons to be far better then planes in every regard.

Never said that, but it might mean a better game

There are a lot of games with 100s of units, in which only 10-20 are ever used. TA is not one of them, but I really wish the units felt less similar and more flexible. Special abilities would be nice for instance.

You are forgetting that nukes take ages to build, naval units don't. And last time I checked naval units can move, nukes take a while to reach target, so couldn't said naval units... move out of the way?

Really? Milleniums take a dogs age. And please don't say your standard millenium/carrier group can dodge a nuke, because it can't. And lesser naval units are pretty junky, hovercraft are more useful then them.

As does TA.

Not really. My opponent building Brawlers? Queue the Jethros and Samsons, and add a couple flakkers. Oh look, no problems. Starcraft just forces you to react faster.

And Crashers are good at anti-air but poor at attacking ground units. However, Storms are excellent Lv1 ground attack but almost useless at anti-air.

Please, that's apples and oranges. What I'm saying is that TA has BROAD counters. Storms beat air, Crashers are great anti-ground. Starcraft it's more like Hydralists>Goliaths, but Marines>Hydralisks, and you're forced to create a very interesting force.

TA is not just long-term: it can be played short, medium or long term. It does have long term strats: Berthas, Nukes, Vulcs, rushes, massive attacks, spies, pincers... and I could go on but I won't.

Please, TA is long-term strategy. No competent player loses to a rush, especially if there's choke points. Starcraft? Oh, it can happen VERY easily.

Rushing is not impossible, it is very feasible and used widely. The Commander is very powerful but NOT invincible. I myself am very good on the D-gun (once took out 50+ flashes in a few waves) but am still sometimes overwhelmed by rushing, this can happen to anyone. Thus TA is also good on small maps.

It takes just luck to take out a commander. A rush does not involve 75 units btw.

Larger maps are very playable: huge sea attacks, multiple nukes, Berthas, vulcs, spies, pincers (hey, do I see a pattern here? ) TA is not LESS flexible but rather MORE flexible: for example, Starcraft's limited-resources idea can seriously hinder a game, making it very dull once resources run dry. TA can have limited or unlimited resources.

TA cannot have limited resources, unless you're talking 3rd party patches. Starcraft on the other hand can have unlimited resources (look at BGH ).

I'm sorry, I like TA, but Starcraft is just the better game.

 

[Bowser]

Depends on how you think I guess. TA has a lot off seriousness too. You MUST expand to get decent supplies of metal (metal maps excluded). This also applies for Geothermal vents.

Oh yes, I'm sure TA is an intense strategy game, no doubt. I didn't mean to say that it was not; but I did want to come across that there is good reason the maps on Starcraft are typically smaller - it's not just thrown into the game because the developers were lazy. So with that said, the maps in Starcraft shouldn't be critizised for something that makes sense.

 

[dragannia]

I play this game quite frequently, I'm not saying it's bad, but the AI SUCKS. It is hard to describe exactly how frustrating it is to manuver large groups of units over varied terrain to someone who hasn't played the game. Don't pretend it's not a problem, because it is. Unit pathing is beyond bad, and that's a fact.

I personally have had no trouble with unit AI except for a battlefield positively LITTERED with wreckages.

Because otherwise they run into mountans, and other genius maneuvers. And please explain why dogfighting is a good idea, I've found flakkers, jethros, and samsons to be far better then planes in every regard.

Crash into mountains? That's a new one. Dogfighting is very important because stealth fighters are a far more effective way of countering air. 40 Hurricanes against 40 Samsons the Hurricanes would win; 2 passes by 2 or 3 Hurricanes would annihilate about 5 or 6 Samsons.

There are a lot of games with 100s of units, in which only 10-20 are ever used. TA is not one of them, but I really wish the units felt less similar and more flexible. Special abilities would be nice for instance.

I'll admit, special abilities would be nice but it's robots....I mean come on...Well there is cloaking and D-Gun and stuff and that's kinda like a special ability...........(help me Noddingdog )

Really? Milleniums take a dogs age. And please don't say your standard millenium/carrier group can dodge a nuke, because it can't. And lesser naval units are pretty junky, hovercraft are more useful then them.

Something I like to call radar and sonar jammers. If they can't see you, they can't hurt you. And you can assist with ships. Nukes you cannot.

Not really. My opponent building Brawlers? Queue the Jethros and Samsons, and add a couple flakkers. Oh look, no problems. Starcraft just forces you to react faster.

You must have ground support in almost all air assaults except for raiding and Eagle warefare. And if they're usuing Eagle tactics they would have a LOT of planes. It's hard to stop, and I quote, 150 planes when they come screaming for your blood. Stealth fighters are very useful here because they can scout out and destroy enemy bombers and gunships quite easily. Of course the enemy Eagle commander probably has more fighters than you.

Please, that's apples and oranges. What I'm saying is that TA has BROAD counters. Storms beat air, Crashers are great anti-ground. Starcraft it's more like Hydralists>Goliaths, but Marines>Hydralisks, and you're forced to create a very interesting force.

Umm...I think you have that mixed around. Storms SUCK at anti-air because although their rockets do a lot of damage they are unguided, meaning that it is VERY hard to hit a fast moving fighters and bombers (which although are the slowest planes are still very fast). And TA does not have that bid counters. Lv 1 stuff-Rocket Kbots for buildings, missile Kbot and missile vehicles for main attack although light tanks can fill in these roles. Missile Kbot and Vehicles can also be used as a counter for light tanks although light tanks can easily overwhelm them because of high cost and longer build time. And the Core riot tank Leveler is a great counter for Arm Flashes, although not much else.

Please, TA is long-term strategy. No competent player loses to a rush, especially if there's choke points. Starcraft? Oh, it can happen VERY easily.

Most people do lose to rushes. It's called 'being a better player making better choices (in both unit and tactics.' And there are hardly any choke points in TA anyway.

It takes just luck to take out a commander. A rush does not involve 75 units btw.

Not luck, skill. You can spread out troops to lessen effect of D-Gun, take out energy facilties and storages to knock out enemy D-Gun threat, etc. And a rush CAN involve 75+ units. 10k metal and energy, 2 vehicle plants, pump out Jeffies or Weasels as fast as you can.

TA cannot have limited resources, unless you're talking 3rd party patches. Starcraft on the other hand can have unlimited resources (look at BGH ).

I'm sorry, I like TA, but Starcraft is just the better game.

True, but resources are much harder to get in TA. You have to scout out AND secure metal patches so you are forced to expand. You also have to keep building Metal Makers and Fusion Plants into the game as demands increase eg Big Berthas, more production plants, Vulcans, nukes, etc.

Last comment-matter of opinion.

Just wondering, does SC have any bugs? TA has some but I didn't know they were there until I read about them. Like the bomber bug...It bugs me........Get it? Hahahahaha..............................I'm so sad... (I brought that up just so I could say that.........it doesn't really bug me because I haven't seen it in action.)

 

[Noddingdog]

Well, thank goodness you brought some sense back into this debate, dragannia.

I play this game quite frequently, I'm not saying it's bad, but the AI SUCKS. It is hard to describe exactly how frustrating it is to manuver large groups of units over varied terrain to someone who hasn't played the game. Don't pretend it's not a problem, because it is. Unit pathing is beyond bad, and that's a fact.

Unfortunately that is just not true. Units move smoothly along the landscape to their destination without problems unless, as dragannia pointed out, the landscape is littered with wreckage. Of course, then you could either send in a FARK or similar to reclaim it, or simply nuke the area and remove the wreckage, allowing the units through.

Because otherwise they run into mountans, and other genius maneuvers. And please explain why dogfighting is a good idea, I've found flakkers, jethros, and samsons to be far better then planes in every regard.



There are a lot of games with 100s of units, in which only 10-20 are ever used. TA is not one of them, but I really wish the units felt less similar and more flexible. Special abilities would be nice for instance.

Actually, they don't, unless you have some VERY serious lag. And since Starcraft also has bad problems with lag, we can't really use this against TA.
Dogfighting is essential in the early stages of a game with Freedom Fighters/Avengers, and also bombers or torpedo bombers later game: fly in, release bombs, fly out in the opposite direction, wait, refly in, release bombs, etc. With stealth fighters and normal fighters positioning the planes for attack runs is vital if you want to win. Stealth fighters can also be more effective than AA ground units: try hitting legions of Hawks or Vamps with even Flakkers or Cobras, you won't get much success. Try using stealth fighters though and they'll fall down by the dozen, especially against Rapiers and suchlike.
Special abilities such as D-Gun, On, Off, Capture, Reclaim, Load and Unload? Yep, like those.

Really? Milleniums take a dogs age. And please don't say your standard millenium/carrier group can dodge a nuke, because it can't. And lesser naval units are pretty junky, hovercraft are more useful then them.


Not really. My opponent building Brawlers? Queue the Jethros and Samsons, and add a couple flakkers. Oh look, no problems. Starcraft just forces you to react faster.

You've got to be joking, Milleniums are a mere drop in the ocean (sorry about the pun). Build-assist with the Comm and several AC subs and you're away. It can, because once again as dragannia pointed out, use sonar/radar jammers (Fibbers, Escorts, Phantoms) and you're invisible. Keep moving in an orderly manner and you can't be nuked efficiently. Plus the opponent has to waste loads of resources building the nukes in the first place.
That's not correct, Skeeters are excellent at anti-air, better so than Hydras/Rangers. Lurkers/Snakes are brilliant at destroying fleets in large numbers, and Crusaders/Enforcers make great support ships. Hulks/Envoys are superb at mass-moving units or setting up new bases, and Construction Ships build heavy defences and the Advanced Shipyard.

Please, that's apples and oranges. What I'm saying is that TA has BROAD counters. Storms beat air, Crashers are great anti-ground. Starcraft it's more like Hydralists>Goliaths, but Marines>Hydralisks, and you're forced to create a very interesting force.

Actually, Storms are the ground units and Crashers are anti-air. In Total Annihilation, Krogoth > Peewee, but Shooter / Annihilator / Penetrator Ice Angel (Ice Angel is a third party unit) > Krogoth when used properly. So TA also forces you to think very hard about what you are going to use.

Please, TA is long-term strategy. No competent player loses to a rush, especially if there's choke points. Starcraft? Oh, it can happen VERY easily.

That's not correct. TA is short, medium AND long-term. Rushing kills off many a player even today, and there's many an aggressive player who'd be more than happy to show you that. Probably in Starcraft too.

It takes just luck to take out a commander. A rush does not involve 75 units btw.

No, it takes skill and large numbers of units. For example, once I sent out a few scout-type units to the opponent's base, and of course met good old Mr Commander. He started D-Gunning (a special ability) and I moved my units skillfully so that he ended up D-Gunning a production facility (w00t!). My work there was done. Rushes, attacks and even swarms take skill.

TA cannot have limited resources, unless you're talking 3rd party patches. Starcraft on the other hand can have unlimited resources (look at BGH .

It can, try playing the map Dump (available by unlocking it via the HPI tools). It has no metal deposits but a whole lotta junk, that can be reclaimed or resurrected (another special ability).

I'm sorry, I like TA, but Starcraft is just the better game.

As Dragannia pointed out, that's personal opinion.

 

[ThePhoenix]

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I personally have had no trouble with unit AI except for a battlefield positively LITTERED with wreckages.

We are currently having huge LAN games here (no one will play me in starcraft) and everyone agrees that sheparding the units is ridiculously annoying. The pathing is very bad.

I'll admit, special abilities would be nice but it's robots....I mean come on...Well there is cloaking and D-Gun and stuff and that's kinda like a special ability...........(help me Noddingdog )

So we have on/off, load/unload, dgun, and capture. Wow. 4 abilities.

You must have ground support in almost all air assaults except for raiding and Eagle warefare. And if they're usuing Eagle tactics they would have a LOT of planes. It's hard to stop, and I quote, 150 planes when they come screaming for your blood. Stealth fighters are very useful here because they can scout out and destroy enemy bombers and gunships quite easily. Of course the enemy Eagle commander probably has more fighters than you.

A long term strategy, definately. And I know that you can build 150 air units, but that strategy has its own problems (Flakkers do major damage to grouped air, mobile flakkers can turn any air show into a disaster). That's counters I guess, but Starcraft's system just works better IMO. I like units that survive more then 5 seconds.

Umm...I think you have that mixed around. Storms SUCK at anti-air because although their rockets do a lot of damage they are unguided, meaning that it is VERY hard to hit a fast moving fighters and bombers (which although are the slowest planes are still very fast). And TA does not have that bid counters. Lv 1 stuff-Rocket Kbots for buildings, missile Kbot and missile vehicles for main attack although light tanks can fill in these roles. Missile Kbot and Vehicles can also be used as a counter for light tanks although light tanks can easily overwhelm them because of high cost and longer build time. And the Core riot tank Leveler is a great counter for Arm Flashes, although not much else.

The Leveler is a great example of the problems with the game. It, um, counters Peewees? Name one unit in starcraft that's only purpose is to counter another unit.

Most people do lose to rushes. It's called 'being a better player making better choices (in both unit and tactics.' And there are hardly any choke points in TA anyway.

Not luck, skill. You can spread out troops to lessen effect of D-Gun, take out energy facilties and storages to knock out enemy D-Gun threat, etc. And a rush CAN involve 75+ units. 10k metal and energy, 2 vehicle plants, pump out Jeffies or Weasels as fast as you can. [/QUOTE] Yes, you can do tactics to make rushes work, but if your enemy gets up 2 heavy lasers in good spots then it's all over. Not so in Starcraft, where rush counters are complex and require good management.

True, but resources are much harder to get in TA. You have to scout out AND secure metal patches so you are forced to expand. You also have to keep building Metal Makers and Fusion Plants into the game as demands increase eg Big Berthas, more production plants, Vulcans, nukes, etc.

Last comment-matter of opinion.

Just wondering, does SC have any bugs? TA has some but I didn't know they were there until I read about them. Like the bomber bug...It bugs me........Get it? Hahahahaha..............................I'm so sad... (I brought that up just so I could say that.........it doesn't really bug me because I haven't seen it in action.)

WHAT? Resources harder to get in TA? What possible justification do you have for this? Sure starcraft you have an early game resource node, but that better not be your only node if you want to survive for a medium-long game. TA you can retreat into your base and hide after the first fusion/moho is up. Sure, I still get metal from other sources, but in any long game those will become incidental.

Starcraft has no bugs, no imbalances, it's basically RTS chess. TA, for all the fun it's given me, is not.

 

[Ryder]

I can't figure out what ThePhoenix said from what Dragannia did?!

 

[Noddingdog]

We are currently having huge LAN games here (no one will play me in starcraft) and everyone agrees that sheparding the units is ridiculously annoying. The pathing is very bad.

I assume you are running either on slow connections or PCs or with demanding specifications. Pathfinding is very acceptable normally, but when stress piles up on the connection it degenerates. Try upgrading your PC, getting a faster connection and removing excessive background applications, or third-party tools etc.

So we have on/off, load/unload, dgun, and capture. Wow. 4 abilities.

I'll make a list for you (from memory, there may be others I have temporarily forgotten)

Special Abilities - OTA (with CC etc)
D-Gun (Disintegrator Gun, wipes out anything in one shot)
Cloaking - hides unit for a cost. If another unit comes into the cloak reveal radius the unit becomes visible. Spies use cloaking extensively.
Stealth - the unit is invisible on radar. Used mainly by stealth fighters and Necros.
Load/Unload - allows transportation of units from place to place. Examples: Bear, Turtle, Hulk, Envoy, Valkyrie, Atlas.
On/Off - activates and de-activates a unit. Examples: radar towers, metal makers, metal extractors, solar collectors, certain ships, air repair pads.
Resurrection - revives units from wreckage. Used by the Necro.
Capture - takes control of an opposing unit.
Build-assist - allows another builder(s) to join onto the current build project, increasing the speed and resources required.
Jamming - renders an area invisible to radar technology.
Radar - locates units and displays them on the Mini-Map.
Reclaim - gathers resources from trees, rocks, units, etc.
Repair - heals the specified unit.
Sonar - locates water units and displays them on the Mini-Map.
Sonar Jamming - renders an area invisible to sonar.

A long term strategy, definately. And I know that you can build 150 air units, but that strategy has its own problems (Flakkers do major damage to grouped air, mobile flakkers can turn any air show into a disaster). That's counters I guess, but Starcraft's system just works better IMO. I like units that survive more then 5 seconds.

Well that's opinions for you. Care to suggest some examples?
Hey, so do I. Play TA.

The Leveler is a great example of the problems with the game. It, um, counters Peewees? Name one unit in starcraft that's only purpose is to counter another unit.

On the contrary, the Leveler is a great asset to any Core player. 10-20 Levelers will send any Flash or Peewee rush packing - the Flash rush is heavily used to take down the Core. Hence, Core R&D developed the Leveler to combat the Flash/Peewee rushing.

Yes, you can do tactics to make rushes work, but if your enemy gets up 2 heavy lasers in good spots then it's all over. Not so in Starcraft, where rush counters are complex and require good management.

Determined attacks and rushing can take out those 2 heavy laser towers. What about going in behind the lines with a construction unit and nanolathing a Punisher or Guardian to take care of the HLTs? That's complex, and requires very good management - send in alone, and you will probably get found out, but send in with too many units, and the plan will be foiled if you can't get it up. You have to think hard, very hard. One of SC's major problems is the lack of realism.

WHAT? Resources harder to get in TA? What possible justification do you have for this? Sure starcraft you have an early game resource node, but that better not be your only node if you want to survive for a medium-long game. TA you can retreat into your base and hide after the first fusion/moho is up. Sure, I still get metal from other sources, but in any long game those will become incidental.

Not true. What if I bring an attack against you and destroy the mohos/fusions? Yeah, you'll probably build another, but what if I immediately back that up with reinforcements? Soon, you are at a great disadvantage and cannot build fast enough to take my units out, and your base is overrun.

Unfortunately, once SC runs out of resources, it's game-over or very dull game. Makes for nice stalemates.

Starcraft has no bugs, no imbalances, it's basically RTS chess. TA, for all the fun it's given me, is not.

I cannot agree. How can you prove that SC has no bugs or imbalances? You can bet your bottom dollar that it does.
TA and SC are not meant to be RTS chess )although whether or not they represent chess is a different issue), they are meant to be RTS war simulation games. If you want chess, go to Yahoo Games. If you want an RTS wargame, go to TA. Besides, in TA, the king is the Commander, the pawns are the infantry, the rooks are the production facilities... it would be unfair to say that TA couldn't be compared to chess without backing that statement.

[edit] Ryd: I guess it was an editing glitch. Quotes can be annoying sometimes! [/edit]

 

[ThePhoenix]

I assume you are running either on slow connections or PCs or with demanding specifications. Pathfinding is very acceptable normally, but when stress piles up on the connection it degenerates. Try upgrading your PC, getting a faster connection and removing excessive background applications, or third-party tools etc.

[/size][/font]

I'll make a list for you (from memory, there may be others I have temporarily forgotten)

Special Abilities - OTA (with CC etc)
D-Gun (Disintegrator Gun, wipes out anything in one shot)
Cloaking - hides unit for a cost. If another unit comes into the cloak reveal radius the unit becomes visible. Spies use cloaking extensively.
Stealth - the unit is invisible on radar. Used mainly by stealth fighters and Necros.
Load/Unload - allows transportation of units from place to place. Examples: Bear, Turtle, Hulk, Envoy, Valkyrie, Atlas.
On/Off - activates and de-activates a unit. Examples: radar towers, metal makers, metal extractors, solar collectors, certain ships, air repair pads.
Resurrection - revives units from wreckage. Used by the Necro.
Capture - takes control of an opposing unit.
Build-assist - allows another builder(s) to join onto the current build project, increasing the speed and resources required.
Jamming - renders an area invisible to radar technology.
Radar - locates units and displays them on the Mini-Map.
Reclaim - gathers resources from trees, rocks, units, etc.
Repair - heals the specified unit.
Sonar - locates water units and displays them on the Mini-Map.
Sonar Jamming - renders an area invisible to sonar.

Terran
Repair - repairs mechanical units
Stim packs (boosts attack speed, costs health)
Heal - heals organic units
Flashbang - cuts targeted unit's line of sight to 0
Restoration - removes all negative effects from a unit
Cloak - cloaks
Lockdown - Locks down a mechanical unit
Mine layer - lays mines (useful ones, not the TA junk ones)
Load/Unload
Detect - detects cloaked units
Irradiate - causes damage to organic units around targeted unit and targeted unit
EMP shockwave - cuts all energy and sheilds
Defensive matrix - adds 250 HP, but allows 3 points of damage through per attack
Yamoto Cannon - Long range huge damage cannon
Lift off - building rises into the air.

ONE RACE has as many abilities as are in TA.


Determined attacks and rushing can take out those 2 heavy laser towers. What about going in behind the lines with a construction unit and nanolathing a Punisher or Guardian to take care of the HLTs? That's complex, and requires very good management - send in alone, and you will probably get found out, but send in with too many units, and the plan will be foiled if you can't get it up. You have to think hard, very hard. One of SC's major problems is the lack of realism.

Unfortunately, once SC runs out of resources, it's game-over or very dull game. Makes for nice stalemates.

I've never played any game except an 8 player FFA that ran out of resources. And 8-player FFAs are interesting in TA too. If you run out of resources on a map then I laugh.

I cannot agree. How can you prove that SC has no bugs or imbalances? You can bet your bottom dollar that it does.

TA and SC are not meant to be RTS chess )although whether or not they represent chess is a different issue), they are meant to be RTS war simulation games. If you want chess, go to Yahoo Games. If you want an RTS wargame, go to TA. Besides, in TA, the king is the Commander, the pawns are the infantry, the rooks are the production facilities... it would be unfair to say that TA couldn't be compared to chess without backing that statement.

Only bug - worker target glitch where workers have low priority targeting, thus occasionally making it hard to maneuver in bases. No imbalances.

[edit] Ryd: I guess it was an editing glitch. Quotes can be annoying sometimes! [/edit]

Yeah, tell me about it. I made my post more readable by editing a {Quote} to what it should be, an {/QUOTE}

 

[dragannia]

Not much time so only one response

Terran
Repair - repairs mechanical units
Stim packs (boosts attack speed, costs health)
Heal - heals organic units
Flashbang - cuts targeted unit's line of sight to 0
Restoration - removes all negative effects from a unit
Cloak - cloaks
Lockdown - Locks down a mechanical unit
Mine layer - lays mines (useful ones, not the TA junk ones)
Load/Unload
Detect - detects cloaked units
Irradiate - causes damage to organic units around targeted unit and targeted unit
EMP shockwave - cuts all energy and sheilds
Defensive matrix - adds 250 HP, but allows 3 points of damage through per attack
Yamoto Cannon - Long range huge damage cannon
Lift off - building rises into the air.

ONE RACE has as many abilities as are in TA.

He never said that SC has less special abilities than TA. He just said TA has special abilities as well, because you said they had none.

 

[Noddingdog]

Terran
Repair - repairs mechanical units
Stim packs (boosts attack speed, costs health)
[/size][/font] Heal - heals organic units
Flashbang - cuts targeted unit's line of sight to 0
Restoration - removes all negative effects from a unit
Cloak - cloaks
Lockdown - Locks down a mechanical unit
Mine layer - lays mines (useful ones, not the TA junk ones)
Load/Unload
Detect - detects cloaked units
Irradiate - causes damage to organic units around targeted unit and targeted unit
EMP shockwave - cuts all energy and sheilds
Defensive matrix - adds 250 HP, but allows 3 points of damage through per attack
Yamoto Cannon - Long range huge damage cannon
Lift off - building rises into the air.

OK...

Repair is essentially the same as Heal - so that's 1.
Flashbang and Stim packs are separate.
Cloaking is also in TA.
Lockdown is the equivalent of TA's paralyzer weapon.
Mine layer the equivalent of Podger/Spoiler.
Load/unload also in TA.
Detect fair enough but TA's cloaking/detection system is better - move within the cloak radius and unit is revealed rather than stay cloaked until detection spell/power is used.
Irradiate is presumably a race-specific ability.
EMP is also in TA and is a weapon.
Defensive matrix is the equivalent of the Ambusher/Toaster's hide feature where the hidden state is more armoured than the firing state.
Yamato cannon is the equivalent of the D-Gun.
Lift-off is another race-specific ability.
Total 4 separate abilities, not even counting TA's host of other abilities, so not much new here... How about the other races?

I've never played any game except an 8 player FFA that ran out of resources. And 8-player FFAs are interesting in TA too. If you run out of resources on a map then I laugh.

Only bug - worker target glitch where workers have low priority targeting, thus occasionally making it hard to maneuver in bases. No imbalances.

Well... I suppose you better start laughing then. Any SC map can run out of resources... just watch the game turn into a long-term game, and bingo, you have a no-resource stalemate. This possibility is entirely avoided in TA.
That's one bug... I'll bet there are more. No imbalances? Are you sure?

 

[ThePhoenix]

OK...

Repair is essentially the same as Heal - so that's 1.
Flashbang and Stim packs are separate.
Cloaking is also in TA.
Lockdown is the equivalent of TA's paralyzer weapon.
Mine layer the equivalent of Podger/Spoiler.
Load/unload also in TA.
Detect fair enough but TA's cloaking/detection system is better - move within the cloak radius and unit is revealed rather than stay cloaked until detection spell/power is used.
Irradiate is presumably a race-specific ability.
EMP is also in TA and is a weapon.
Defensive matrix is the equivalent of the Ambusher/Toaster's hide feature where the hidden state is more armoured than the firing state.
Yamato cannon is the equivalent of the D-Gun.
Lift-off is another race-specific ability.
Total 4 separate abilities, not even counting TA's host of other abilities, so not much new here... How about the other races?

Wow, you've never played Starcraft. DM is NOT the equivelent of the Hide feature, since it works on ANY unit, and is a unit special ability. Hide your flashes, and I'll agree with that. Yamoto is not like a D-gun (similar though).

Zerg
Burrow (the real equivelent of Hide, though it's on units, not buildings)
Plague
Dark Swarm
Devour
Devourer's spores
Ensnare
Parasite
Spawn Broodlings
Infest command center

Protoss
Psi storm
Hallucinate
Archon Meld
Scarab
Mind Control
Feedback
(Another DT ability that shuts down organic units for a short period of time)
Stasis
Recall
AOE Cloaker
Interceptors
Ground diabling energy field
Sheild Recharge

Oh and there's dozens of upgrades, making units better at the cost of a lot of resources that really adds a unique feature to the game.


And simply try to name an imbalance in Starcraft. Anywhere. It isn't there.

Well... I suppose you better start laughing then. Any SC map can run out of resources... just watch the game turn into a long-term game, and bingo, you have a no-resource stalemate. This possibility is entirely avoided in TA.
That's one bug... I'll bet there are more. No imbalances? Are you sure?[/QUOTE] I laugh. Please explain to me these games where you've run out of resources. Or is this a hypothetical?

 

[dragannia]

Oh and there's dozens of upgrades, making units better at the cost of a lot of resources that really adds a unique feature to the game.

Well, that's just one of its features isn't it? It's not unique because lots of games have that feature eg AOE series, etc. The reason I think they didn't add that to TA is because they wanted to make it more realistic. I mean, two armies should already have they're researched stuff. Why should they they just magically 'forget' all their researched stuff everytime they start another battle?

 

[dragannia]

I laugh. Please explain to me these games where you've run out of resources. Or is this a hypothetical?

Sure it runs out. Especially in long scale battles. This is excluding money maps. Just for people to know there are money maps in TA. They are of course the metal maps where you produce insane amounts of metal and lots of geothermal.

And TA does not have junk mines! A nuclear mine at a potential entrance to your base can damage or cripple your enemies before they even reach you.

 

[ThePhoenix]

Well, that's just one of its features isn't it? It's not unique because lots of games have that feature eg AOE series, etc. The reason I think they didn't add that to TA is because they wanted to make it more realistic. I mean, two armies should already have they're researched stuff. Why should they they just magically 'forget' all their researched stuff everytime they start another battle?

Ok, then why can't I divert an asteroid onto an opponents base? Why can't I incite his troops to riot? Why can't I use concentrated laser fire to create a firestorm? Why can't I blow up inconvienent mountains? Why can't I do mobile bridges over water?

Realism is a bad card to play. Neither game is anywhere near real life. I think upgrades make the game flow better.