The real issue that needs to be voted on, closing the Trad/Prog war camps.

[StormyOne]

Stormy, I think I would've completely missed your post if Red hadn't quoted it.

I apologize but this thread is moving faster than my brain this morning.

Let me just say this...I am very, very sorry for anything that happened back then. Since that time I went through a horrible ordeal and completely turned my back on God for 15 months.

I tout the name Trust And Obey, but ironically it turns out to be the hardest thing for me to do. I'm honest about it and I although I'm not proud of it, I did learn a lot during those 15 months.

I am in NO position to judge anyone else. I'm also in no postion to tell people the truth when I can't always live by what *I* feel it is myself.

I'm the worst kind of sinner there is, and that's a fact.

Back then I could quote scripture off the top of my head and not have to look it up. I was really close to having the entire bible memorized.

Yet I didn't DO it what it says. To me, that really is the worst kind of sinner and that's why what OntheDL posted hit me SO HARD yesterday. Seriously, it scared me to death because those words felt like they were aimed directly at me.

Now that I cannot remember scripture or even where to find it half the time, ironically I feel it more.

I guess any accusations that I was a legalist back then really were true.

I was a Pharisee of the worst kind...I expected others to do it, but I didn't do it myself.

I'm begging for a clean slate. I don't deserve one, but I'm asking for one nonetheless.

T&O, we all grow... I do not hold what happened then against you, but bring it up to remind us that we often misinterpret the motives of others, sure I yanked some chains back then, and you all reacted, however at the end of the day for me we were still brothers and sisters in Christ....

 

[sentipente]

I'm begging for a clean slate. I don't deserve one, but I'm asking for one nonetheless.

The only people who do not deserve clean slates are those who already have clean slates. Clean slates are for those who have dirty slates.

The problem with dogmatism is that we have no way of knowing what our actions may lead others to and how God holds us responsible for what we drove others to do. For example, a woman nags a man until he swears at her then she triumphantly holds that up against him never once revealing that his swearing was evoked by her behavior.

 

[sentipente]

T&O, we all grow... I do not hold what happened then against you, but bring it up to remind us that we often misinterpret the motives of others, sure I yanked some chains back then, and you all reacted, however at the end of the day for me we were still brothers and sisters in Christ....

Sometimes it's better to have someone yank your chain than to act as if neither you nor your chain exist.

 

[TrustAndObey]

That's where we differ...I don't think anyone can MAKE you do anything.

If you are strong in your faith, Christ takes away the temptation.

I wasn't strong back then, I'm probably even weaker NOW, but weaker in a different sense.

 

[sentipente]

That's where we differ...I don't think anyone can MAKE you do anything.

I did not say anyone can make you do anything, but Jesus did teach that one can be held responsible for the actions of another. This is another biblical teaching that many who claim to follow the bible completely ignore.

 

[reddogs]

That's where we differ...I don't think anyone can MAKE you do anything.

If you are strong in your faith, Christ takes away the temptation.

I wasn't strong back then, I'm probably even weaker NOW, but weaker in a different sense.

God will work with each and everyone that lets go of the chains of satan and presents themselves to Him.
But you must let go of the chain of hate, the one of anger, the one of revenge and present yourself so God can fully release you and clean your record of those chains of sin.

 

[TrustAndObey]

While this has been a wonderful conversation, and I've enjoyed fellowshipping to the point of tears this AM, I do have things that I need to do.

Red, I love you brother and anything you say deserves my consideration. I did give it my consideration and I think we need to stick with the vote and work towards unity.

If everyone has the same goal, it won't take long at all.


Lord, I ask You to watch over this forum and let us feel the love for each other You clearly want us to have. Let it be the driving force behind any decisions that we make, and help us realize when we are acting out of pride instead of love. Let us rejoice when we know Your will is being done. Let us listen to each and every person and not discount anything they have to say, for we are all Your children.

Give us strength, wisdom, and knowledge. Humble us when we need humbling, and give us strength when we need strength.

In Your Son's loving and holy name I pray. Amen.



Ahora debo ir aprendo un cierto español

 

[reddogs]

While this has been a wonderful conversation, and I've enjoyed fellowshipping to the point of tears this AM, I do have things that I need to do.

Red, I love you brother and anything you say deserves my consideration. I did give it my consideration and I think we need to stick with the vote and work towards unity.

If everyone has the same goal, it won't take long at all.


Lord, I ask You to watch over this forum and let us feel the love for each other You clearly want us to have. Let it be the driving force behind any decisions that we make, and help us realize when we are acting out of pride instead of love. Let us rejoice when we know Your will is being done. Let us listen to each and every person and not discount anything they have to say, for we are all Your children.

Give us strength, wisdom, and knowledge. Humble us when we need humbling, and give us strength when we need strength.

In Your Son's loving a holy name I pray. Amen.



Ahora debo ir aprendo un cierto español

That is what I have proposed, we stick with the vote and work towards unity and put in the process of 'tough love' to enforce it and in 90 days phase out the Trad/Prog sub-forums if we feel it is working....

Tenge que ear a acer me trabaho o me ban a 'fire me'

Red

 

[mva1985]

I did not say anyone can make you do anything, but Jesus did teach that one can be held responsible for the actions of another. This is another biblical teaching that many who claim to follow the bible completely ignore.

Would it be possible for you to supply a text showing your point. I know I would like to see it.

 

[OntheDL]

We are so busy seeing how to win whatever vote was present along Trad/Prog party lines, that the real problem was missed. The Prog/Trad sub-forums have become war camps that everyone that comes here must join by default then fight against the other camp. This is not how it was meant to be, it is a complete defeat of what Jesus Christ told us we should do. We were to 'love one another' and these war camps lead everyone that comes here to arm themselves to 'hate one another'. When I came here I was from a 'celebration' church, but I was quickly labeled as a 'Trad', with what criteria did that happen except the criteria of hate.

I have learned that you cannot fight unless you label 'who' to fight against. Well I think it is imperative that we take off the 'labels' and go back to doing what Jesus Christ commanded us, to 'love one another' and if it takes 'tough love' reporting to moderators, then we must chose it. When we voted these last few times, we just left these 'crutches' of Trad/Prog war camps in place, there was not a comprehensive solution to this problem to vote on and thus no incentive to solve the real issuse.

The real issue is the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, they are a testament to hate to all who come here, a vestige of the sins of the 'fathers' (those who were here before us) and now the 'children' must bear the results. They were set up as camps of refuge but quickly became what define us and what divided us. When first came, I did not 'wear' a Adventist icon as I have been at some SDA churches that are 'very strict' in their understanding of truth. But the division here is worse than anything I have ever encountered and it is only encouraged by putting up the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, which almost forces everyone coming here to join one or if just to see Adventist beliefs to flee in absolute disbelief at the hate created..

Well the current posters are starting to see that we can bury these 'obsolete' sub-forums once a process is set up to stop the personal attacks and 'flaming'. We need to explore who is causing us to hate each other, who is pushing us apart, who wants us set war camps and divide us, look in your heart and see if the Spirit gives you a clear answer.

It is time to make peace and close the war camps....

Red

Red,

How can the church be united when the two groups are theologically opposed to each other?

EGW stated the straight testimonies will cause the shaking/division in the end. This is what will purify the church.

The theological difference will always exist. But it doesn't mean we can't co-exist. The subforums are here so we can study the scriptures, share findings without the endless arguing.

Didn't Jesus say you shall be hated by all men for my name sake? That starts in the church.

But we need to learn to be civil and have constraints and have rules to enforce them.

 

[honorthesabbath]

God will send the Holy Spirit to convince each and everyone of His truth, He does not just sit back there on His throne and wait for us, He is proactive, He is Omnipotent, and He will not allow our friends, our brethren, our family members to die an eternal death because we do not have love and could not reach out to them. God created us in His image, and that means the love is in us, it is there within each and everyone of us and somehow God reaches in and makes it resonate so the Holy Spirit can do its work.

I cannot believe that God will ever give up on anyone while they still are on the path of eternal life, and I truly believe that those who are in our little group are looking for that path just at different places but they have to be prepared to let go of self and let God lead them...

Well red--I guess we have a difference of opinion of what love is. IF we say we love the Lord--then by default we must love His truths as well-they ARE a package deal.

When I see those who claim they love others and yet constantly throw the truths of the Advent church in the dust because of their liberal thinking patterns--then I quite frankly distrust them as sincere.

You mentioned ppl who are 'looking for that path'--hasn't that path already been cleared ahead for us? Jesus said HE WAS THE WAY--THE TRUTH--AND THE LIGHT! Are you suggesting that there is another path?
I think the liberals think so--but I sure don't.

I know at times I get angry and say things that I shouldn't, this is born out of frustration that so many of my TSDA's friends tolerate such heresy in this forum. Seems every body wants to sugar coat what is so obviously evil in nature.

I have more tolerence for the worldlings who come and ask questions about the bible and walk away unconvinced than I do for those who have known the truth-but somehow it just isn't good enough for them. And so instead of walking away quietly--they feel compelled to attack the foundational tennets of a whole denomination.

It is my prayer that those who love Christ and His truth will wake up to this assault on the movement that God raised up to warn the end-times ppl of riles of Babylon. Isa 32:5 The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

And please take note that Babylon is not only on the outside of this church.





.

 

[moicherie]

Let see If ye Love me keep the 28 fundamentals that will come up around the year 2000 A.D and be known as Traditional Adventist. Anyone know that text?

 

[sentipente]

Didn't Jesus say you shall be hated by all men for my name sake? That starts in the church.

He did not say "You must hate others for my name sake."

 

[StormyOne]

Red,

How can the church be united when the two groups are theologically opposed to each other?

EGW stated the straight testimonies will cause the shaking/division in the end. This is what will purify the church.

The theological difference will always exist. But it doesn't mean we can't co-exist. The subforums are here so we can study the scriptures, share findings without the endless arguing.

Didn't Jesus say you shall be hated by all men for my name sake? That starts in the church.

But we need to learn to be civil and have constraints and have rules to enforce them.

Ellen White also said this:

Those who differ with us in faith and doctrine should be treated kindly. They are the property of Christ, and we must meet them in the great day of final account. We shall have to face one another in the judgment, and behold the record of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not as we have viewed them, but as they were in truth. God has enjoined upon us the duty of loving one another as Christ loved us.Ellen White, My Life Today, p. 187.

And she said this:

Christ has plainly taught that those who persist in open sin must be separated from the church, but He has not committed to us the work of judging character and motive. He knows our nature too well to entrust this work to us. Should we try to uproot from the church those whom we suppose to be spurious Christians, we should be sure to make mistakes. Often we regard as hopeless subjects the very ones whom Christ is drawing to Himself. Were we to deal with these souls according to our imperfect judgment, it would perhaps extinguish their last hope. Many who think themselves Christians will at last be found wanting. Many will be in heaven who their neighbors supposed would never enter there. Man judges from appearance, but God judges the heart. The tares and the wheat are to grow together until the harvest; and the harvest is the end of probationary time. {COL 71.3}

There is in the Saviour's words another lesson, a lesson of wonderful forbearance and tender love. As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested. Were they to be separated from the church, others might be caused to stumble, who but for this would have remained steadfast. {COL 72.1}

So given those statements you say what?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

I know at times I get angry and say things that I shouldn't, this is born out of frustration that so many of my TSDA's friends tolerate such heresy in this forum. Seems every body wants to sugar coat what is so obviously evil in nature.

I have more tolerence for the worldlings who come and ask questions about the bible and walk away unconvinced than I do for those who have known the truth-but somehow it just isn't good enough for them. And so instead of walking away quietly--they feel compelled to attack the foundational tennets of a whole denomination.

If you really have the truth why be afraid to debate about your ideas or the Churches ideas. Truth is reality, if you have reality on your side then you should be able to win every debate you encounter. Win them without calling others names or even win without calling other views heresy or evil. You could simply document that they are in error. The reason so many here are afraid of the idea of debate is because they know that much that they claim as truth is not in fact reality. To admit that reality in spiritual matters is not obvious forces them to acknowledge that what they declare to be truth can often be simply tradition. Tradition whether declared by the Roman Catholic church as the official interpretation supplied by their understanding of the Bible or whether the official interpretation of the SDA church is not a substitute for truth.

It has been the inappropriately attributed idea that one group has the truth and if you disagree you are anathema is reminiscent of the Roman Catholic churches attacks upon Luther, Wycliff and others. The Protestant reformation showed that reason can and must be used against tradition, even the tradition that calls itself truth.

So we should never fear examining our beliefs even when they are attacked because as iron sharpens iron so too can debate sharpen our own understanding and ability.

 

[NightEternal]

Honestly Reddogs, I have nothing more to say to people who continually use hate rhetoric. It's sickening. You would have us dialogue with people who refer to us as 'Babylonians at the gate', 'offshoots', 'evil','heretics' and so forth?

No. Enough is enough. This is garbage and we do not have to tolerate it.

We should have split the forums, and rest assured we are going to regret that we did not.

 

[sentipente]

We should have split the forums, and rest assured we are going to regret that we did not.

As of now the forums ARE split.

 

[honorthesabbath]

If you really have the truth why be afraid to debate about your ideas or the Churches ideas. Truth is reality, if you have reality on your side then you should be able to win every debate you encounter. Win them without calling others names or even win without calling other views heresy or evil. You could simply document that they are in error. The reason so many here are afraid of the idea of debate is because they know that much that they claim as truth is not in fact reality. To admit that reality in spiritual matters is not obvious forces them to acknowledge that what they declare to be truth can often be simply tradition. Tradition whether declared by the Roman Catholic church as the official interpretation supplied by their understanding of the Bible or whether the official interpretation of the SDA church is not a substitute for truth.

It has been the inappropriately attributed idea that one group has the truth and if you disagree you are anathema is reminiscent of the Roman Catholic churches attacks upon Luther, Wycliff and others. The Protestant reformation showed that reason can and must be used against tradition, even the tradition that calls itself truth.

So we should never fear examining our beliefs even when they are attacked because as iron sharpens iron so too can debate sharpen our own understanding and ability.

We tried two years ago to reason with the offshoots in here. We DID use scripture and were met many times with the attitude we were TWISITNG the scriptures.

This is why I refuse to try any longer with this faction. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. It was proven two years ago that those who have stayed from the fundemental teaching of the SDA church were not interested at all in truth. All they wanted was to cause division and create an atmoshpere of hate and distrust--and in that they succeeded.

My comments and attitude hasn't come from thin air--they were developed over the past 2 yrs. in having to deal with this mess.

 

[reddogs]

Honestly Reddogs, I have nothing more to say to people who continually use hate rhetoric. It's sickening. You would have us dialogue with people who refer to us as 'Babylonians at the gate', 'offshoots', 'evil','heretics' and so forth?

No. Enough is enough. This is garbage and we do not have to tolerate it.

We should have split the forums, and rest assured we are going to regret that we did not.

Then let us sharpen the knives, and poison the arrows, and get the spears ready as there is there is no winner in Satans game of hate, there is no victory in the Devils snare of anger. It is a Pyrrhic victory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory, is that what you want, the destruction of both sides so that all are harmed. Where is the blessing, the good, the "true" followers of Christ if they cannot love. It is a pox on both houses if we cannot somehow let go of Satans weapons of evil to attack our brothers/sisters in Christ.

 

[StormyOne]

We tried two years ago to reason with the offshoots in here. We DID use scripture and were met many times with the attitude we were TWISITNG the scriptures.

This is why I refuse to try any longer with this faction. You cannot reason with the unreasonable. It was proven two years ago that those who have stayed from the fundemental teaching of the SDA church were not interested at all in truth. All they wanted was to cause division and create an atmoshpere of hate and distrust--and in that they succeeded.

My comments and attitude hasn't come from thin air--they were developed over the past 2 yrs. in having to deal with this mess.

The reality is that 2 yrs ago it was shown that the views you hold are closer to being an offshoot than anything anyone else here has ever said. Likewise the fact that you choose to use harsh, hateful labels towards those who don't believe as you do is proof that your views are not remotely traditional but something from another gospel....