The real issue that needs to be voted on, closing the Trad/Prog war camps.

[reddogs]

We are so busy seeing how to win whatever vote was present along Trad/Prog party lines, that the real problem was missed. The Prog/Trad sub-forums have become war camps that everyone that comes here must join by default then fight against the other camp. This is not how it was meant to be, it is a complete defeat of what Jesus Christ told us we should do. We were to 'love one another' and these war camps lead everyone that comes here to arm themselves to 'hate one another'. When I came here I was from a 'celebration' church, but I was quickly labeled as a 'Trad', with what criteria did that happen except the criteria of hate.

I have learned that you cannot fight unless you label 'who' to fight against. Well I think it is imperative that we take off the 'labels' and go back to doing what Jesus Christ commanded us, to 'love one another' and if it takes 'tough love' reporting to moderators, then we must chose it. When we voted these last few times, we just left these 'crutches' of Trad/Prog war camps in place, there was not a comprehensive solution to this problem to vote on and thus no incentive to solve the real issuse.

The real issue is the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, they are a testament to hate to all who come here, a vestige of the sins of the 'fathers' (those who were here before us) and now the 'children' must bear the results. They were set up as camps of refuge but quickly became what define us and what divided us. When first came, I did not 'wear' a Adventist icon as I have been at some SDA churches that are 'very strict' in their understanding of truth. But the division here is worse than anything I have ever encountered and it is only encouraged by putting up the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, which almost forces everyone coming here to join one or if just to see Adventist beliefs to flee in absolute disbelief at the hate created..

Well the current posters are starting to see that we can bury these 'obsolete' sub-forums once a process is set up to stop the personal attacks and 'flaming'. We need to explore who is causing us to hate each other, who is pushing us apart, who wants us set war camps and divide us, look in your heart and see if the Spirit gives you a clear answer.

It is time to make peace and close the war camps....

Red

 

[Adventist Dissident]

how is this helping. Reddog we know you like to lecture, but this in not help. We need to tone down the retoric and stop fanning the flames of division, by saying we should split, accusing other of wrong doing,

Today we need to RENAME the 2 sub forums. Put up a 28 fundi stiky and Move these discussion off the front page.

Who can do this.

 

[reddogs]

how is this helping. Reddog we know you like to lecture, but this in not help. We need to tone down the retoric and stop fanning the flames of division, by saying we should split, accusing other of wrong doing,

Today we need to RENAME the 2 sub forums. Put up a 28 fundi stiky and Move these discussion off the front page.

Who can do this.

Ice,

You can call it whatever, rename or phase out, but we need to wipe out what seperates us whether in name or in action.

Rename, so everyone can go in either one so they cannot be used to divide, or phase them out as they are a witness to a complete surrender to Satan's strategy to divide and conquer within the Adventist faith.

And not a horrible '28 fundi stiky' but a robust Adventist belief section with explanation of the beliefs, with the main Adventist sites, the main Adventist preachers sites, Ellen Whites writings, and a history of the church that set the basis of many of our beleifs and understanding.

I am not 'lecturing', as the brethren in BSDA made clear when I went there, I am 'schooling' as I dont know enough yet to hit the 'lecture' circuit.......

Red

 

[honorthesabbath]

We are so busy seeing how to win whatever vote was present along Trad/Prog party lines, that the real problem was missed. The Prog/Trad sub-forums have become war camps that everyone that comes here must join by default then fight against the other camp. This is not how it was meant to be, it is a complete defeat of what Jesus Christ told us we should do. We were to 'love one another' and these war camps lead everyone that comes here to arm themselves to 'hate one another'. When I came here I was from a 'celebration' church, but I was quickly labeled as a 'Trad', with what criteria did that happen except the criteria of hate.

I have learned that you cannot fight unless you label 'who' to fight against. Well I think it is imperative that we take off the 'labels' and go back to doing what Jesus Christ commanded us, to 'love one another' and if it takes 'tough love' reporting to moderators, then we must chose it. When we voted these last few times, we just left these 'crutches' of Trad/Prog war camps in place, there was not a comprehensive solution to this problem to vote on and thus no incentive to solve the real issuse.

The real issue is the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, they are a testament to hate to all who come here, a vestige of the sins of the 'fathers' (those who were here before us) and now the 'children' must bear the results. They were set up as camps of refuge but quickly became what define us and what divided us. When first came, I did not 'wear' a Adventist icon as I have been at some SDA churches that are 'very strict' in their understanding of truth. But the division here is worse than anything I have ever encountered and it is only encouraged by putting up the Prog/Trad sub-forums or war camps, which almost forces everyone coming here to join one or if just to see Adventist beliefs to flee in absolute disbelief at the hate created..

Well the current posters are starting to see that we can bury these 'obsolete' sub-forums once a process is set up to stop the personal attacks and 'flaming'. We need to explore who is causing us to hate each other, who is pushing us apart, who wants us set war camps and divide us, look in your heart and see if the Spirit gives you a clear answer.

It is time to make peace and close the war camps....

Red

Red, In all honesty I ask you this.

How can there be peace when the truth is being compromised in here?

People talk about coming together, but based on what? Fuzzy feelings? The 'love' that you all are proposing--it is actually love for Christ or love of unity for unities sake? I wonder.

If we cave into compromise because 'it looks good to the outside world', then we have thrown Jesus and truth to the ground.

Where are the watchmen on the wall for Israel? Why allow the Babylonians into the gates? Were we admonished by Christ Himself to COME OUT from among them that choose their own way? Yes--we were.

The edvil didn't want this split because he knew the ground he has already gained would be lost. SO he redoubled his forces, and they won even more ground.

I hope you all can live with that. I can't.

 

[TrustAndObey]

I won't compromise what I believe for the sake of peace.

I did that for 20+ years in the Baptist church.

And I don't think others should feel compelled to compromise either.

If someone wants to discuss something it isn't always something they want up for debate. If they want to share a doubt or a personal experience with those they've grown to trust, then they should have that option.

 

[sentipente]

How can there be peace when the truth is being compromised in here?

Honor, the Jews thought Jesus was compromising the truth. They were as confident in your belief as you are in yours. That is why they had Him crucified.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Thwack

 

[reddogs]

Red, In all honesty I ask you this.

How can there be peace when the truth is being compromised in here?

People talk about coming together, but based on what? Fuzzy feelings? The 'love' that you all are proposing--it is actually love for Christ or love of unity for unities sake? I wonder.

If we cave into compromise because 'it looks good to the outside world', then we have thrown Jesus and truth to the ground.

Where are the watchmen on the wall for Israel? Why allow the Babylonians into the gates? Were we admonished by Christ Himself to COME OUT from among them that choose their own way? Yes--we were.

The edvil didn't want this split because he knew the ground he has already gained would be lost. SO he redoubled his forces, and they won even more ground.

I hope you all can live with that. I can't.

We must have faith that the Spirit will do its work, we cannot continue to allow Satan to do his, he is succeeding and destroying any good you might think is happening behind the 'walls'

We are supposed to be a witness, not hide in our seperate war bunkers telling each other how "true" we are to God or how "right" we are in our attacks. We are to do what sets us as followers of Christ:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[StormyOne]

We must have faith that the Spirit will do its work, we cannot continue to allow Satan to do his, he is succeeding and destroying any good you might think is happening behind the 'walls'

We are supposed to be a witness, not hide in our seperate war bunkers telling each other how "true" we are to God or how "right" we are in our attacks. We are to do what sets us as followers of Christ:

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.


John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Red, some believe that truth supersedes love... they don't want to hear about love, they believe "truth" must stand regardless. So there will be a stalemate, they have already spoken, they will not compromise, they must cry aloud and spare not.... even though its questionable that they know what "the truth is."

 

[mva1985]

Stormy,

That is a tough one. I sometimes fall into the truth superseding love position myself, well maybe alot of the time

Love for others should come first, but we have to remember that Love includes the Truth. Sometimes some have to be bottle fed (milk) while others can handle fruits and veggies and then the meat of the matter.

But the real key is speaking the truth in love.

Just my 2.5 cents (since I have an MVA education )

 

[TrustAndObey]

Red, I respect you a great deal and I know that anything you propose comes straight from your heart.

We're together right now in the main forum, and do you not see all the debating going on? If this is unity, then I sure would hate to see us fighting!

I do love every single person on this site, and there is no one here that I'd call my enemy, but I do not feel compelled to agree with everyone here either...which includes you, a man that has absolutely earned my respect.

Those verses aren't just aimed at Adventists, they're speaking of the entire body of Christ, but you won't see me kissing the pope's ring in my lifetime for the sake of unity or peace.

There are also many verses about rebuking and sticking to sound doctrine. We cannot forget those.

Total unity is a wonderful dream, but would you be willing to compromise the Sabbath commandment to get it? That's my point....there will be MANY that say to Him on that day "Lord, Lord" and He will tell them He never knew them.

OntheDL posted something yesterday that literally freaked me out, from a personal standpoint, not for or against anyone here on this site....and I think that's where our focus is being shifted from. Ourselves.

Personal accountability and personal constraint. You can't govern that here, you can only reprimand when a boundary is crossed.

I love you for wanting the unity, but at the same time i have to ask how much compromising are you really willing to do in order to achieve it?

 

[sentipente]

Stormy,

That is a tough one. I sometimes fall into the truth superseding love position myself, well maybe alot of the time

Love for others should come first, but we have to remember that Love includes the Truth. Sometimes some have to be bottle fed (milk) while others can handle fruits and veggies and then the meat of the matter.

And trouble comes when those who are eating veggies begin to suspect those who are working with meat.

 

[sentipente]

There are also many verses about rebuking and sticking to sound doctrine. We cannot forget those.

But you must first prove that it is you who has the sound doctrine.

Your foot has a different perspective on life from your hand but you won't find your foot trying to expel your hand from your body as a result. If we can't learn from what God has made it is no wonder we can't learn from Him.

 

[reddogs]

Red, some believe that truth supersedes love... they don't want to hear about love, they believe "truth" must stand regardless. So there will be a stalemate, they have already spoken, they will not compromise, they must cry aloud and spare not.... even though its questionable that they know what "the truth is."

So what do we do, sit here till eternity lobbying "truth" missiles at each other and sapping each others "bridges" of bible study to learning Gods truth. Is that the choice we want.....or can we begin to let God work and learn to trust and learn to love as He intented...


What is the consensus here, to love in faith or to war in hate?

 

[TrustAndObey]

Red, you post a lot of stuff about EGW and I know you're aware that there are some people here that do not believe she was a true prophet of God.

If she wasn't a true prophet, then we know she has to be of satan. Period. There's no middle ground on scripture, it's black or white.

I won't ever believe she was of satan, and I refuse to compromise on that.

So if some people feel the truth is that she was, and I feel that she wasn't....where's the compromise?

 

[sentipente]

Red, you post a lot of stuff about EGW and I know you're aware that there are some people here that do not believe she was a true prophet of God.

If she wasn't a true prophet, then we know she has to be of satan. Period. There's no middle ground on scripture, it's black or white.

Black and white thinking is always dangerous. I don't accept you as a prophet of God. Does that mean that I think you are of Satan? With EGW it's a question of authority. If some would not try to use her as a big stick to rule the lives of others no one would feel the need to find evidence of our fallibility. We would never have known that she continued to eat meat AFTER she received the health message, for example. Attacks always evoke a defense.

 

[StormyOne]

Red, you post a lot of stuff about EGW and I know you're aware that there are some people here that do not believe she was a true prophet of God.

If she wasn't a true prophet, then we know she has to be of satan. Period. There's no middle ground on scripture, it's black or white.

I won't ever believe she was of satan, and I refuse to compromise on that.

So if some people feel the truth is that she was, and I feel that she wasn't....where's the compromise?

That is not hardly true.... a person can have the gift of prophecy and not be a prophet. That is a side issue anyway, the problem appears that some of us always see things as black and white, either/or when indeed there is gray. While Ellen White may have been a prophet, not every thing she said was inspired. What do you do with that? If she was a prophet why did the powers that be choose to edit her writings? If they were inspired by God why would they need editing?

Those are all gray issues, but some people are not comfortable with gray, they prefer everything written out so they won't have to..... think....

 

[reddogs]

Red, you post a lot of stuff about EGW and I know you're aware that there are some people here that do not believe she was a true prophet of God.

If she wasn't a true prophet, then we know she has to be of satan. Period. There's no middle ground on scripture, it's black or white.

I won't ever believe she was of satan, and I refuse to compromise on that.

So if some people feel the truth is that she was, and I feel that she wasn't....where's the compromise?

God will send the Holy Spirit to convince each and everyone of His truth, He does not just sit back there on His throne and wait for us, He is proactive, He is Omnipotent, and He will not allow our friends, our brethren, our family members to die an eternal death because we do not have love and could not reach out to them. God created us in His image, and that means the love is in us, it is there within each and everyone of us and somehow God reaches in and makes it resonate so the Holy Spirit can do its work.

I cannot believe that God will ever give up on anyone while they still are on the path of eternal life, and I truly believe that those who are in our little group are looking for that path just at different places but they have to be prepared to let go of self and let God lead them...

 

[mva1985]

So what do we do, sit here till eternity lobbying "truth" missiles at each other and sapping each others "bridges" of bible study to learning Gods truth. Is that the choice we want.....or can we begin to let God work and learn to trust and learn to love as He intented...


What is the consensus here, to love in faith or to war in hate?

My vote is for a Jihad!!! (just for clarification I am being sarcastic)

 

[StormyOne]

So what do we do, sit here till eternity lobbying "truth" missiles at each other and sapping each others "bridges" of bible study to learning Gods truth. Is that the choice we want.....or can we begin to let God work and learn to trust and learn to love as He intented...


What is the consensus here, to love in faith or to war in hate?

Red, like I stated earlier, I have no problem dissolving the separate subforums. In fact for a time I thought if I removed myself from posting here, then the tension and conflict would lessen, I would check back periodically and see that there was still contention....

So I have no problem dissolving the subforums, and even when there is disagreement it does not mean (to mean) that a person is destined to hell or not a follower of God.... unfortunately, those from the traditional side will not say the same thing....