The Ravi Zacharias scandal and....his books on my shelves.

[Swan7]

If these were victimless, I would agree with you. They're not.

Sorry, but this is only your opinion. I do not see any evidence to hold your claims against someone who had the Spirit, not to mention you did not provide any sources for me to "see" your point.

I see many have agreed with you, but they have clearly not seen what I have when someone in Christ passes on. This in itself is Scandalized-Gossip, which Christ is very clearly against.

 

[Sketcher]

Sorry, but this is only your opinion. I do not see any evidence to hold your claims against someone who had the Spirit, not to mention you did not provide any sources for me to "see" your point.

I see many have agreed with you, but they have clearly not seen what I have when someone in Christ passes on. This in itself is Scandalized-Gossip, which Christ is very clearly against.

1) His own organization, which is having the claims audited, found them credible.
2) The claims themselves, were from female massage workers at his spas, report sexual harassment, and not just verbal sexual harassment.
3) If any of that really happened to any one of them, then he has at least one victim.

I found some sources for you, it didn't take that long to find them. Investigating before reacting is a practice that I recommend you take up.

RZIM Statement: Update from RZIM Board: Allegations Against Ravi Zacharias
Investigators statement: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/...nloads/2020-12-22+LMB+Ltr+to+Special+Cmte.pdf
Allegations: New sexual misconduct claims surface about Ravi Zacharias - WORLD

None of this is news I wanted to hear. I saw the man speak in person.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I didn't say you were, but I have seen this time and time again that people will unearth sins of the dead, buried and gone from this world. I'm actually surprised that you haven't come across this as well. How is one held accountable by spiritual means if the one unable to defend himself is no longer here on this earth? That is why I wrote what I wrote.

Actually, the very first sentence you wrote to me in this thread was,

"It never ceases to amaze me that people will trudge up past sin to trample on the very path they claim to walk on."
​

What kind of statement was this other than one that was directed at me, even by inference? And now you say you didn't intend to say that I was "trampling" anything? C'mon now!

Ok. We're just going to have to stop there, Sister Swan7.

You're apparently not wanting to fully respond to the questions of my OP. However, I've listened to your disagreement with my philosophical inquiry and I have considered what you've said. I think you're incorrect that there are 'no' post-mortem evaluations in the Bible about people who have already passed, but I'm not going to get into a debate about that separate issue since it would divert us from the focus intended for this thread.

Just one point of clarification is due here though, and that is that this thread is not meant to provide any kind of evaluation about Ravi Zacharias' state of salvation. With this in mind, I'd like everyone to avoid making any statements about that topic. This thread is intended solely for the discussion of whether a person who has one or more of Ravi's Apologetics books would keep those books -- or not --and what lessons we might learn from this situation.

You've provided the latter without providing the former.

But be that as it may, thank you for your time and have a blessed day!

 

[KitKat1230]

I'm not sure. Yes, there much of his theology was great and helped many people. And I myself liked Ravi Zacharias before all this started to come out. I doubted the allegations initially, and, honestly, I wanted to doubt them at first. However, the information that I have found about the situation seems to confirm the allegations. For example, he did own massage spas and it wasn't a secret either. Also, the woman Lori Anne Thompson was sued while he was still alive, which indicates that he was trying to keep it hush-hush. And, not necessarily related to this scandal, but he had also lied about his education and credentials, saying he was educated at Oxford and Cambridge when he wasn't.

Only God knows the full truth, but so far it seems like the allegations might be true.

 

[Noxot]

I still accept some things from people I don't like. because of the bad things they said or did I still ought not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I don't want to watch the video for various reasons. ravi was a decent early influence on me though I don't think apologist tend to be fair towards universal truth in general. they are bent on defending their own religious pov above all else, not necessarily on pure unadulterated truth. it seems they tend to want to win, not discover though this is not the full truth ofc and each person is uniquely what they become.

I know ravi had a scandal with a women but I dunno what to think of it, if he was even in the wrong. now it seems more of the same kind of news. it is sad if he did bad and sad if he is being falsely accused. not much I can do about either.

"jesus among other gods" was not fair towards other religions. the best thing about that book was some of the human to human relations he spoke about; human experience stories he recounted. he has something good to offer. no one is burning thomas aquinas books for believing it's good to allow the state to torture heretics if they don't believe like he did. though the EO scoff at thomas for things like divine simplicity and though he has an incomplete metaphysics (EO is incomplete too, heh), he still surly has good things to offer as well.

still, it is best to seek out the best.

 

[Lion Farmer]

Judgement is a tricky thing.. that is why real judgement is left up to God. Having said that, as Christians we should have a sense of right and wrong. If you read the full 12-page report that was commissioned by Ravi's organization (In my case I listened to someone read the full report) you should find it egregious. While I was a latecomer to the Ravi fan club, I found him brilliant, funny and engaging. In short- he was gifted. That gifting came from God. The dark side of the gift was his failing as he apparently used the same gifting to convince (groom) his victims. Those of you that read or hear the report will know that he apparently hid his behavior from those around him for many years with the exception of a glaring wake-up call (to the ministry and Ravi) in 2017 when a masseuse and her husband came forth.

Ravi's response? Go on the offensive, destroy the messenger and (as noted in the report) concurrently continue his dark behavior. I think his response was most telling. It was an opportunity lost. We can only guess what was going on in the immediate family and the ministry board room.

Some of you may recall the famous televangelist Jimmy Swaggart. Every Sunday, it seemed, he would go on TV and rail against the evils of prostitution while (it turns out) was concurrently visiting a prostitute(s). On the surface the Swaggart's story appears quite different than that of Ravi Z. It came out later that Jimmy's family was aware of Jimmy's visits to prostitutes. They confronted him without apparent success. Then a small circle of Jimmy's close friends were somehow made aware. They confronted him without any apparent success. Then the Swaggart Ministries' Board was made aware. Again the behavior was met with the same results. Finally the world, through media reports, were told. Only then did Jimmy finally... I think/hope.. repent and turn.

God's judgement with Jimmy was kind but progressive. God started with Jimmy (totally private, noone has to know)- But Jimmy's seared conscience told him to continue on. I think of the Christian baby doctor that vomited after the 1st abortion but gradually became "an abortionist".

It is comforting to me that God is no respecter of persons. Jimmy, Ravi and all others are given the same opportunity (many opportunities in most cases) to turn from their wicked ways. It doesn't matter to God how famous, how many followers, etc. God treats them the same.

I will add that I am thankful that I was not called to be in a position of leadership where Satan works overtime to work his evil in the dark corners.

Pray for your leaders and confront them in love if you are aware of besetting sin.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How many of the Psalms were written before David committed sexual crime - and did we throw them out?

 

[bèlla]

I think Paul's words are apropos for the question the OP raises. “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. —1 Corinthians 10:23

For some, keeping the books is okay. Their conscience is clear and they're able to separate the message from the messenger. But some feel otherwise. The allegations raise questions that unsettle them. They may feel led to remove the books and choose a different source. Neither are wrong.

There's a few things we should be mindful of. The public isn't privy to the internal workings of the organization. A risk assessment was done. That's a given for large companies and scenarios like this. They'll weigh the consequences of pursuing the inquiry while he's alive or after his passing in light of his health.

The backlash would have been worse and may have led to additional disclosures and greater damage. There's the legal factor too. Keep in mind this is post #MeToo. He would have been tried in the public eye and victims would be encouraged to speak out. The reputational risk to him and RZIM is grave.

From a risk perspective, it's better to handle it post mortem. That doesn't mean the investigation began at that period. You may release the results of your findings at that time. While an outcry is unavoidable, it isn't the public roasting he'd receive if it happened earlier.

It wouldn't surprise me if they made an executive decision to do it later. The organizational bottom line isn't the the same as yours and mine. They'll rebuild his image and people will forget about it in a few years. That's the way it's done.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Carl Emerson]

What this sad business should remind us of is this...

Never be persuaded to render loyalty to and believer on the basis of gifts alone...

It also reminds us that regarding discernment in the body of Christ the horse has long bolted - it is now an age where it is all the more critical to find a pocket of unity in which the gifts flow including discernment in this late hour when deception is all around us.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@KitKat1230, @Lion Farmer, @bèlla and @Carl Emerson

In taking a moment here to affirm that I've read each of your latest comments, I thank you for having done so and each of you has offered useful, honest, informative and thoughtful responses. Ravi was just a man, one that was a leader in the Church obviously, but still just a fallen man like the rest of us.

He in his own way let his sins run away with him like David did and especially as Solomon did (and so many other figures in the Old Testament that we're all familiar with), all the while Ravi was apparently still able to think thoughts deep and meaningful. We've all had various levels of sin and falleness in our own lives, and so my own response here in this thread isn't one by which to overtly condemn Ravi, but rather to recognize, acknowledge, and hopefully learn from this outcome of sin.

Hopefully, even as egregious and devastating as his sins were, not only for himself but for his family and for his victims, this will afford a moment of wide reconsideration and prayer within the Church At Large (i.e. all of us Christians who practice within Trinitarian denominations and/or traditions). I hope we have a time now in which those who are officially recognized and/or ordained and leading the rest of us will be quickened in discipline of mind and heart to either fortify and guard their own lives and families in Christ so as to avoid the kind of sin and scandal Ravi carried out which qualified leaders should never be a part of.....

.... or to finally step down [or be removed, if necessary] if they too are failing.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

His sins don't invalidate the arguments he made in his books, nor the Gospel message he conveyed. They tarnished his name, and the name of Christ whom he was supposed to be serving, and of course they hurt people, but the good points he made are still good points. Keep the books and study them. Obviously don't do what he did, but learn from it so that you don't do the same.

Reread his books, take notes of arguments he makes that are unique to himself. If he gave a testimony check it for reliability. Those skills will help you in reaching others in discernment.

 

[Sketcher]

In the light of the full report, I will have harsher things to say about Ravi going forward. More and worse sins were confirmed than I knew about previously.

I still believe that his works should be examined, though with a different eye. When he did make a good argument, it was still a good argument. But in light of what he did for years, we need to examine those works for the warning signs that we missed before.

"I have a great idea for a doctoral thesis. Read all of RZ’s books and lectures and find the lies and red flags." - TWW
Ravi Zacharias Was Not Some Average Sinner in the Church. He Was a Predator With a Profound Psychiatric Problem | The Wartburg Watch 2021

The full report: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/rzimmedia.rzim.org/assets/downloads/Report-of-Investigation.pdf
RZIM's site linked to this report here: Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias

 

[Daniel Marsh]

thanks for the update

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In the light of the full report, I will have harsher things to say about Ravi going forward. More and worse sins were confirmed than I knew about previously.

I still believe that his works should be examined, though with a different eye. When he did make a good argument, it was still a good argument. But in light of what he did for years, we need to examine those works for the warning signs that we missed before.

"I have a great idea for a doctoral thesis. Read all of RZ’s books and lectures and find the lies and red flags." - TWW
Ravi Zacharias Was Not Some Average Sinner in the Church. He Was a Predator With a Profound Psychiatric Problem | The Wartburg Watch 2021

The full report: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/rzimmedia.rzim.org/assets/downloads/Report-of-Investigation.pdf
RZIM's site linked to this report here: Open Letter from the International Board of Directors of RZIM on the Investigation of Ravi Zacharias

... That's an idea similar to what I've had as I decide what to do with RZ's books. However, I don't know that I'll spend all of my time reading all of his books to find "some clues" of his lies.

With that said in following this line of scrutinizing, I think I've already spotted one flag in RZ's writing that relates to his view on the nature of a philosophical problem: pleasure. When I read it years ago, I don't remember thinking much about it because what he said is brief, and I likely passed it off as something reflecting my own thoughts at the time. But, in looking at what he said more closely now, it seems to read a little differently. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Anyway, thanks for the links by which to give us some further thoughts in evaluating and addressing the focus of this OP.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Following from what I've stated above, and since this thread is the Christian Philosophy and Ethics forum, I'm going to quote a few of Ravi's thoughts from a book of which he was the general editor (or perhaps RZIM was the compiler of the book? I don't know). Anyway, among the few books I have with his name on them, the one I mention below will be one that I'm keeping as a reference, and for two reasons: 1) It's an anthology containing the writers of a couple of dozen Christian apologists, in addition to Ravi Zacharias, such as Alister McGrath, John Lennox and Amy Orr-Ewing, among others, and 2) Ravi's two essays within this collected anthology express statements of his that we can analyze for further evaluation and then contrast with what we now know about the allegations associate with his actions, if we're inclined to do so.

The following short excerpt is from Ravi's essay entitled, "Existential Challenges of Evil and Suffering," from the sub-section of that essay with the heading "The Sting in the Tale." And here's the philosophical thoughts that Ravi wrote:

This brings us to our sixth and final point in the process of sustaining the Christian worldview regarding evil. The surest evidence that evil is not the enemy of meaning is this inescapable existential reality: meaninglessness does not come from being weary of pain but from being weary of pleasure [italics are Ravi's, not mine]. This obvious truth is conspicuously absent in the arguments of skeptics. But they hint at it. Was this not David Hume's point that away from the hospitals and the broken bodies, what would he show the stranger visiting this planet? Take him to or her to some dance or some pleasure haunt? Was not that also in some way so empty! Hume spoke volumes on that question. It is not pain that has driven the West into emptiness; it has been the drowning of meaning in the oceans of our pleasures. Pleasure gone wrong is a greater curse than physical blindness. And blindness to the sacred is the cause of all evil. (pp. 206-207)​

End quote.

Does anyone here agree with Ravi's statements above? I don't. At best, they represent a kind of half truth, and I think that on a small level, it is somewhat telling of 'how' Ravi may have been justifying his own sin in his own mind. Personally, as an existentialist of sorts myself, I've always thought of pain as the greater hindrance to faith. As for pleasure, whether pleasure is a hindrance or not I think will depend upon the kind of pleasure being referred to (which Ravi here, interestingly enough, does not clearly specificy in this singular instance). In other words, I'm saying that even biblically, we should separate out the ideas of carnal pleasure from sacred pleasure, and we should sort out pleasure obtained against God's Will [such as might take place in Las Vegas] from those pleasures God Designed for us to enjoy, such as the pleasure of time spent with one's spouse or with one's family, or eating a healthy meal, or taking a walk in the park.

We need to keep these specific, contrasting denotations of 'pleasure' straight in our minds, and I think most Christians already understand this difference.

Reference

Zacharias, Ravi. (2007). Existential challenges of evil and suffering. In R. Zacharias (Ed.), Beyond Opinion: Living the faith we defend (pp. 178-208). Nashiville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[lismore]

For those of you who may not have heard, Ravi Zacharias was a well-known Christian Evangelical apologist who passed away several months ago.

Hello. I believe he was a controversial figure for some time, if you search youtube you can find dozens of clips of him speaking at Mormon Tabernacle, affirming the doctrines of the LDS. God Bless

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hello. I believe he was a controversial figure for some time, if you search youtube you can find dozens of clips of him speaking at Mormon Tabernacle, affirming the doctrines of the LDS. God Bless

That's interesting. I never heard that he had been cited for affirming Mormon doctrines. I'll have to check that out as well.

Thanks!

 

[Noxot]

I don't even know if this ravi is some kind of 8th dimensional shadowy projection of possibility just to see how I would act if he were that way. prove that any of you are real to me. I don't know all of your experiences or what is going on inside of you. you might be part of me, but the part of you that is known by me is not the fullness of the reality of you.

lets be real. there is a possibility for some weird woowoo stuff like temporal b theory or the many worlds quantum mechanics interpretation to be true. the nearest star is so unfathomably far away that there is no hope to find a nearby habitable earth-like planet. all the stars in the sky we see are a tiny fraction of our own galaxy. physical symbols might reflect spiritual realities.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't even know if this ravi is some kind of 8th dimensional shadowy projection of possibility just to see how I would act if he were that way. prove that any of you are real to me. I don't know all of your experiences or what is going on inside of you. you might be part of me, but the part of you that is known by me is not the fullness of the reality of you.

lets be real. there is a possibility for some weird woowoo stuff like temporal b theory or the many worlds quantum mechanics interpretation to be true. the nearest star is so unfathomably far away that there is no hope to find a nearby habitable earth-like planet. all the stars in the sky we see are a tiny fraction of our own galaxy. physical symbols might reflect spiritual realities.

I'm pretty sure the recent investigations on Ravi show that he wasn't an "8th dimensional shadowy projection of possibility," Noxot.

 

[Noxot]

I'm pretty sure the recent investigations on Ravi show that he wasn't an "8th dimensional shadowy projection of possibility," Noxot.

we assume all that we encounter are themselves even though it is possible, even morally possible, to have bad actors that are not real. we assume we understand what reality is. there is nothing I can do about ravi and what he is. i'm not certain of what he is because I don't know him and neither do you, you only know your perception of him which is more or less accurate.

the only reality we have is what we are like when we judge a person and outside things that we don't tend to know in themselves. what are people doing when they try to judge ravi? as long as usefulness can be derived from it, then it's good. a real judgement is just what your being is in relation to everything else. this is how some will judge angels.

so what are people doing? do we even know what we are doing? not saying it's all bad, just that no one has all the information. you can spin most things into a good or bad perspective.

I guess i'm just annoyed at people trying to psychoanalyze things he said. that kind of takes getting into his mind and people fail at that a lot. really now, you guys have the power to judge if in a specific point in time something he said was from a demonic or angelic influence through only the medium of some letters, not even in real time with face expressions and other things that helps one to discern in the natural realm? so you are at Jesus tier levels of understanding now? you can see deeply into ravis spirit and reality? no, all you have are outside words and guesses. yes, it's all so obvious now in hindsight right? that was why it was so obvious before you were ignorant. now that we know he did evils, now we can clearly see that there were clear evil influences in him. i'm not buying it.

I get it though, people love to watch crime mysteries to learn and to feel like they solved a problem and so they are better prepared to not be destroyed by expert psychopaths that manage to deceive people all day long every day. that's just my opinion on it. i'm not trying to stop the conversation you tried to spark. do go on, maybe I can learn something.