The Ravi Zacharias scandal and....his books on my shelves.

[2PhiloVoid]

we assume all that we encounter are themselves even though it is possible, even morally possible, to have bad actors that are not real. we assume we understand what reality is. there is nothing I can do about ravi and what he is. i'm not certain of what he is because I don't know him and neither do you, you only know your perception of him which is more or less accurate.

the only reality we have is what we are like when we judge a person and outside things that we don't tend to know in themselves. what are people doing when they try to judge ravi? as long as usefulness can be derived from it, then it's good. a real judgement is just what your being is in relation to everything else. this is how some will judge angels.

so what are people doing? do we even know what we are doing? not saying it's all bad, just that no one has all the information. you can spin most things into a good or bad perspective.

I guess i'm just annoyed at people trying to psychoanalyze things he said. that kind of takes getting into his mind and people fail at that a lot. really now, you guys have the power to judge if in a specific point in time something he said was from a demonic or angelic influence through only the medium of some letters, not even in real time with face expressions and other things that helps one to discern in the natural realm? so you are at Jesus tier levels of understanding now? you can see deeply into ravis spirit and reality? no, all you have are outside words and guesses. yes, it's all so obvious now in hindsight right? that was why it was so obvious before you were ignorant. now that we know he did evils, now we can clearly see that there were clear evil influences in him. i'm not buying it.

I get it though, people love to watch crime mysteries to learn and to feel like they solved a problem and so they are better prepared to not be destroyed by expert psychopaths that manage to deceive people all day long every day. that's just my opinion on it. i'm not trying to stop the conversation you tried to spark. do go on, maybe I can learn something.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, even if only moderately. I do empathize with what you're saying here and I myself have expressed similar sentiments to yours about how we should all do our best to realize there's more to any one person than we know. And sure, we're all 'sinners' who have messed up and should say, 'Oh, there but for the grace of God go I,' or something to that effect.

However, everyone is accountable for their actions in the here and now, whether they're alive or dead. Moreover, even though we as Christians are to do our utmost to apply mercy and grace and charity and love, this doesn't mean we should also turn a blind eye to egregious sins that other people have done and just sweep it all under the proverbial rug. This is especially the case where actual victims are involved. In Ravi's case, actual victims have been involved.

And that's my brief view on this. In my saying this, I don't feel like I have anything to apologize for here for placing this thread, nor should any other Christian come along and try to "call me down" for it. No in fact, on this, I expect to hear, even if not a hearty then a quiet, "Amen."

 

[Noxot]

I'm going to have to disagree with you, even if only moderately. I do empathize with what you're saying here and I myself have expressed similar sentiments to yours about how we should all do our best to realize there's more to any one person than we know. And sure, we're all 'sinners' who have messed up and should say, 'Oh, there but for the grace of God go I,' or something to that effect.

However, everyone is accountable for their actions in the here and now, whether they're alive or dead. Moreover, even though we as Christians are to do our utmost to apply mercy and grace and charity and love, this doesn't mean we should also turn a blind eye to egregious sins that other people have done and just sweep it all under the proverbial rug. This is especially the case where actual victims are involved. In Ravi's case, actual victims have been involved.

And that's my brief view on this. In my saying this, I don't feel like I have anything to apologize for here for placing this thread, nor should any other Christian come along and try to "call me down" for it. No in fact, on this, I expect to hear, even if not a hearty then a quiet, "Amen."

ravi is a product of our times. this is the level Christians strive for, this is why we have huge mega churches and rich pastors. this is why on tv a great deal of the time you see swindlers asking for money so people can be blessed. ravi was supposed to be a man better than the bottom feeders that everyone seems to love to throw money at and yet he too has failed us. we are all so disconnected that we feel good about talking about morals when we have no community to live out the morals in.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

ravi is a product of our times. this is the level Christians strive for, this is why we have huge mega chruchs and rich pastors. this is why on tv a great deal of the time you see swindlers asking for money so people can be blessed. ravi was supposed to be a man better than the bottom feeders that everyone seems to love to throw money at and yet he too has failed us. we are all so disconnected that we feel good about talking about morals when we have no community to live out the morals in.

True, Christians are disconnected, they're not always consistent in loving their neighbors (sometimes not at all), and some seem to be looking for various spiritual hereos. You're right, it shouldn't be this way, but that in and of itself is a side problem. In Ravi's case, I think his personal dysfunctions go beyond merely not 'being connected' or 'caring enough.'

To some extent, I would agree with you, too, that Ravi is a kind of product of our times. However, I don't know that I'd say that being a 'product' of our Solomon Syndrome times is something I've strived for. I also wouldn't want to speak for other Christians (or even non-Christians at that) and say they're all just settling for less than moral mediocrity. As you stated in other ways earlier, there is more than meets the eye to each human being on this planet. But even where this is the case, it is equally the case that victimizers set themselves apart by their actions and the rest of us, even as sinful as we are, will have to confront them and evaluate their actions.

Just for the record, Ravi has never one of my ideological 'hereos.' I've heard him preach a dozen or so times on the radio over the past 20 some years, I've also watched a few of his university campus level lectures on youtube, and I've bought a small handfull of books with his name on them. But frankly, out of the many Christian voices I've learned from, his is probably at a rank of 79th down on the list of philosophers, apologists or theologians I've ever bothered to try to learn from.

Do I feel good about "talking about Ravi"? Of course not. But let's not read into what I'm doing here eisegetically and imply that someone like me who feels the need (maybe the right?) to evaluate Ravi's ideas and actions is only doing so out of narcissistic need or some other form of arrogance .... simply because it makes some other Christians uncomfortable.

 

[bèlla]

When you stand before others and offer instruction in the Lord’s name your accountability is significantly greater than those outside the public eye. If you don’t want the scrutiny then stay in the shadows.

Every platform has consequences and no one enters that realm without a reality check. You get the spoils and hardships. If you want to influence others you will be talked about, criticized, and judged.

~bella

 

[Cormack]

This is my opinion about the books on your shelf, @2PhiloVoid. Keep them. You may have already disposed of the offending material, but I’d say keep them, read them if the desire possesses you, and think on their content, even thinking in light of the authors double life.

Ravis book on marriage is no less right in some areas because he was a philanderer (or worse.) Throwing away Ravis books isn’t an act of purifying or defeating evil in my opinion, it’s just a persons way of saying they can’t be comfortable with the mans name or memory. It’s about either protecting ourselves from him, which is fear, or about expelling evil, which is misplaced vilifying (since they’re just dead books from off a printing press.)

It’s a symbolic withdrawal of the mere prospect of forgiveness and mercy because of something Ravi did which (if we’re being honest) we don’t have the foggiest ideas about first hand.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

This is my opinion about the books on your shelf, @2PhiloVoid. Keep them. You may have already disposed of the offending material, but I’d say keep them, read them if the desire possesses you, and think on their content, even thinking in light of the authors double life.

I agree with this.

Ravis book on marriage is no less right in some areas because he was a philanderer (or worse.) Throwing away Ravis books isn’t an act of purifying or defeating evil in my opinion, it’s just a persons way of saying they can’t be comfortable with the mans name or memory. It’s about either protecting ourselves from him, which is fear, or about expelling evil, which is misplaced vilifying (since they’re just dead books from off a printing press.)

I didn't know Ravi had a book on marriage. That's interesting to know. And being that I have thus far kept his books, I guess I won't be guilty of any "misplaced vilifying" just yet.

It’s a symbolic withdrawal of the mere prospect of forgiveness and mercy because of something Ravi did which (if we’re being honest) we don’t have the foggiest ideas about first hand.

This I can't agree with, and on more than one count, but thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this anyway, brother Cormack. I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Cormack]

I didn't know Ravi had a book on marriage. That's interesting to know. And being that I have thus far kept his books, I guess I won't be guilty of any "misplaced vilifying" just yet.

People are complicated, so I’d never mean to broad brush anyone who’s got some very unique person specific reason for dumping Ravis material.

For example, someone might throw out Ravis books because there’s a Christian family member in the home who’s survived abuse and is aware of the scandal, having a strong sympathy for their struggles and a desire to mitigate their pain could motivate throwing the stuff away. It’s an admirable motivation too in some ways. Again complicated.

I didn't know Ravi had a book on marriage. That's interesting to know.

Just googling the book I had in mind, it’s called I, Isaac, Take Thee, Rebekah: Moving from Romance to Lasting Love. Interesting material for a character study in light of the later scandel, if I’m being bluntly honest.

This I can't agree with, and on more than one count, but thanks for sharing your thoughts here on this anyway, brother Cormack. I'll keep it in mind.

And thank you for the well thought out reply on an especially difficult topic.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

People are complicated, so I’d never mean to broad brush anyone who’s got some very unique person specific reason for dumping Ravis material.

For example, someone might throw out Ravis books because there’s a Christian family member in the home who’s survived abuse and is aware of the scandal, having a strong sympathy for their struggles and a desire to mitigate their pain could motivate throwing the stuff away. It’s an admirable motivation too in some ways. Again complicated.

Just googling the book I had in mind, it’s called I, Isaac, Take Thee, Rebekah: Moving from Romance to Lasting Love. Interesting material for a character study in light of the later scandel, if I’m being bluntly honest.

Yes, being honest is very important, along with a lot of other aspects of having virtue.

And thank you for the well thought out reply on an especially difficult topic.

Thanks. I try.

 

[Noxot]

I guess if the "radical empiricism" is true, which is something the bible seems to preach, that a "form of knowledge" is not the highest authority. if understanding comes from ones state of being and if true confession comes from such then a more perfect being would obviously have a superior wisdom. this is certainly shown in Jesus Christ and i'm far more convinced by this supreme superhero. the more superheros the better. I do wonder what went on inside of ravi. how malicious was he? and how much was he just overcome by his darker side wherein he felt he had no power to stop the monster he was?

I certainly hate that other parts of the church are playing the "hide this important persons sins game" which is a game apparently not limited to the catholics though the major organizations are justified by their best folks even if their best tend to be persecuted by the masses. I prefer to hear out the inward awesome people. it is ashamed that so many who deserve it are being ignored in favor of those that are much less worthy.

Rom 2:17-24 (YLT)
Lo, thou art named a jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God, and dost know the will, and dost approve the distinctions, being instructed out of the law, and hast confidence that thou thyself art a leader of blind ones, a light of those in darkness, an instructor of foolish ones, a teacher of babes, having the form of the knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou, then, who art teaching another, thyself dost thou not teach? thou who art preaching not to steal, dost thou steal? thou who art saying not to commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou who art abhorring the idols, dost thou rob temples? thou who in the law dost boast, through the transgression of the law God dost thou dishonour? for the name of God because of you is evil spoken of among the nations, according as it hath been written.

Rom 2:25-29 (YLT)
For circumcision, indeed, doth profit, if law thou mayest practise, but if a transgressor of law thou mayest be, thy circumcision hath become uncircumcision. If, therefore the uncircumcision the righteousness of the law may keep, shall not his uncircumcision for circumcision be reckoned? and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, art a transgressor of law. For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh; but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[public hermit]

do wonder what went on inside of ravi. how malicious was he? and how much was he just overcome by his darker side wherein he felt he had no power to stop the monster he was?

I wonder, too. It's one thing if someone struggles against a compulsion and they're miserable in losing. It's another thing if one is more than happy to scheme and deceive to indulge and then satisfied in hiding one's indulgence. Both are unacceptable, but one is more malicious than the other, I think.

I don't think I've chimed in about the books on the shelf. If they say something true, that truth is not negated by the character of the one who says it. Like the Hebrews did when they left Egypt, take what you need and leave the rest.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I wonder, too. It's one thing if someone struggles against a compulsion and they're miserable in losing. It's another thing if one is more than happy to scheme and deceive to indulge and then satisfied in hiding one's indulgence. Both are unacceptable, but one is more malicious than the other, I think.

I don't think I've chimed in about the books on the shelf. If they say something true, that truth is not negated by the character of the one who says it. Like the Hebrews did when they left Egypt, take what you need and leave the rest.

That's a good point, PH! So.....are we ready to read and discuss (and value) Hitler's "Mein Kampf!" ?

(I know, I know---I'm just knocking off low hanging fruit with that comment. )

 

[public hermit]

That's a good point, PH! So.....are we ready to read and discuss (and value) Hitler's "Mein Kampf!" ?

(I know, I know---I'm just knocking off low hanging fruit with that comment. )

Lol! I doubt there's any truth in it. That's a hilarious response though, hahaha!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Lol! I doubt there's any truth in it. That's a hilarious response though, hahaha!

Ah, but there may yet be some gems of truths locked away within its (I'm guessing here since I've never read the thing)...... illustrious pages.

But serously, where Ravi's writings are concerned, I've come to a conclusion back up in post #155. And in a way, I think I agree with you in what you've said above.