The Rapture

[gomerian]

Revelation tells you who, what, when, and where.

The Rapture

11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The Candlesticks are Churches

1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Two Blameless Churches

Smyrna
2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Philadelphia
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Two Witnesses

11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

[Rigatoni]

I've been following Dr. Owuor for a couple years now. I always had an idea that he might be one of the two witnesses described in Revelation, and he has an excellent track record behind him to back up that theory. As of this year, he's publicly claimed to be both of the two witnesses, definitely something worth looking into:

 

[gomerian]

I've been following

How's your guy a candlestick, using the definition of candlestick that Jesus gave us, Anthony7?

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation tells you who, what, when, and where.

The Rapture

11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The two olive trees are also a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.

.

 

[gomerian]

The two olive trees are also a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.

.

How does that match the definition of candlestick that Jesus gave us, BABerean2? Olive tree and candlestick are a parallelism.

 

[drjean]

I believe that all occurs after the rapture in chapter 4 of the Book of the Revelation.

The taking up of the two witnesses many believe, with Scripture references, that they are 2 OT prophets, the same seen with Jesus at transfiguration.

 

[gomerian]

This is what I believe: That Jesus tells us what He means, each and every time. He doesn't leave us guessing, or speculating, or rewriting, or looking for any human to give us some answers we want to hear. Humans are not perfect. Humans who never quote Jesus are avoiding Him. What you or I say about Jesus, or the meaning of what Jesus said or did... those are speculations. Jesus tells us what He meant, why He did what He did, and what the consequences of His words and actions would be. There is no guesswork. Faith like a little child means we are spoken to as though we were indeed children, learning at the foot of the Creator who has all the answers.

And that's why I said, Revelation tells you who, what, when, and where, regarding the Rapture. Anything else is not faith like a child. It's questioning God's right to create the definitions and perform the actions within the boundaries of those definitions.

Some say that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. But God says He will keep us from the Great Tribulation, which means before the bowls of wrath are poured out. The only people living in those days will be 1. murderers and sorcerers, and 2. the wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked people who are told to buy what they need from Jesus in those days; that multitude standing on the glass sea paid everything they had to get there.

 

[gomerian]

I believe that all occurs after the rapture in chapter 4 of the Book of the Revelation.

The taking up of the two witnesses many believe, with Scripture references, that they are 2 OT prophets, the same seen with Jesus at transfiguration.

Revelation is not linear. All of Prophecy seems to be written that way, looking forward, and coming back to the present time. The seals operate like a table of contents. For example, 7:3 says the earth and sea haven't yet been harmed, but 6:14-17 are the wrath of God which actually takes place in chapter 16.

IMHO, the prophets are the souls under the altar, who are resting.

 

[seventysevens]

I've been following Dr. Owuor for a couple years now. I always had an idea that he might be one of the two witnesses described in Revelation, and he has an excellent track record behind him to back up that theory. As of this year, he's publicly claimed to be both of the two witnesses, definitely something worth looking into:

Anyone who claims to the the Two witnesses before their time has come is not telling the truth- for when they come they will not need to say any such thing their actions and abilities will speak for them

 

[Rigatoni]

Some say that the rapture will happen before the tribulation. But God says He will keep us from the Great Tribulation, which means before the bowls of wrath are poured out.

According to my understanding of Scripture, I believe the Rapture takes place at the breaking of the 6th seal, before 7 years of Great Tribulation. Notice how the sky is parted after the 6th seal is broken (similar to how the Red sea was parted when the Jews left Egypt):

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. -Revelation 6:14

Also, notice how those who are left behind are claiming that the day of God's wrath has arrived (after the 6th seal is broken):

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” -Revelation 6:15-17

Anyone who claims to the the Two witnesses before their time has come is not telling the truth- for when they come they will not need to say any such thing their actions and abilities will speak for them

His actions speak quite clearly, plus he doesn't contradict Scripture.

I'm not claiming he is without a shadow of a doubt one or both of the two witnesses. I just mentioned him so that others can look him up and do more research about him, and regarding this possibility. But, with everything going on in the world lately, it seems like their time has definitely arrived.

 

[BABerean2]

How does that match the definition of candlestick that Jesus gave us, BABerean2? Olive tree and candlestick are a parallelism.

In Revelation 1:20 Christ uses the candlestick as a symbol of the churches and in Romans 11 Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the churches.

They are both symbols of the Church.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

.

 

[gomerian]

According to my understanding of Scripture, I believe the Rapture takes place at the breaking of the 6th seal, before 7 years of Great Tribulation. Notice how the sky is parted after the 6th seal is broken (similar to how the Red sea was parted when the Jews left Egypt):

The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. -Revelation 6:14

Also, notice how those who are left behind are claiming that the day of God's wrath has arrived (after the 6th seal is broken):

Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” -Revelation 6:15-17

I don't think even the third vial would let whole 7 years happen.
But the first few of the vials echo the first few of the trumpets, and I'm thinking that many people will be calling it the great tribulation when all the grass is gone from their own backyards.

 

[gomerian]

The two olive trees are also a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelite branches and Gentile branches grafted together into the same tree.
.

Who are these people, in your scenario? Another branch of Israelites, Israelites and Gentiles together, replacement Jews... ?

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[drjean]

Revelation is not linear. All of Prophecy seems to be written that way, looking forward, and coming back to the present time. The seals operate like a table of contents. For example, 7:3 says the earth and sea haven't yet been harmed, but 6:14-17 are the wrath of God which actually takes place in chapter 16.

IMHO, the prophets are the souls under the altar, who are resting.

You'll just have to disagree with me on that point.... for the Book of the Revelation to John IS linear.

Someone who knows over 18,000 verses by memory can surely compare scripture with scripture...and he's been preaching prophecy and end times for more than 50 years? He's been right with the events as they have unfolded as well....regarding end times.

You can study with him here: Home - JVIM

And the view that Revelation IS linear is also held by nearly all the current end times prophecy preachers (and late ones too...)such as John Hagee, Perry Stone, Hal Lindsey, Robert Jeffress, David Jeremiah, John MacArthur, Dwight Pentecost, J Vernon Magee, Charles Ryrie, Erwin Lutzer, Greg Laurie, even Scofield!

Yet another on line says:

The book of Revelation is one of the most linear, chronological and simple books of the bible. Most events are described in perfect sequence. We can have confidence that chapter 2 immediately follows chapter 1. We can be comforted to know that chapter 7 occurs just after chapter 6. We were taught in preschool that one is first, two is second, and three is third. Therefore, the more convoluted or complex a Christian teacher will attempt to present the book of Revelation, the more we should readily distrust his ability to understand and teach this most essential book. If a Christian teacher tells us that chapter 13 goes before chapter 7, we must demand that he provide evidence within the book of Revelation that clearly proves his assertion. Revelation only deviates from its linear timeline in a few chapters when particular events or important figures need to be explained in greater detail, or when certain events overlap and intersect with other chapters. And in these few instances, we are always provided evidence that John is departing from the timeline.End Time Markers: How to Read the Book of Revelation

"If the word "revelation" means to "uncover" or "reveal," then the book of Revelation is not supposed to be a non-linear puzzle that is veiled in obscure, secret meanings ..."

​

 

[gomerian]

Someone who knows over 18,000 verses by memory can surely compare scripture with scripture...and he's been preaching prophecy and end times for more than 50 years?
...
And the view that Revelation IS linear is also held by nearly all the current end times prophecy preachers (and late ones too...)such as John Hagee, Perry Stone, Hal Lindsey, Robert Jeffress, David Jeremiah, John MacArthur, Dwight Pentecost, J Vernon Magee, Charles Ryrie, Erwin Lutzer, Greg Laurie, even Scofield!

Memorization + Time = Understanding?
Who knew.

 

[BABerean2]

Who are these people, in your scenario? Another branch of Israelites, Israelites and Gentiles together, replacement Jews... ?

7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

They would be members of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[seventysevens]

His actions speak quite clearly, plus he doesn't contradict Scripture.

I'm not claiming he is without a shadow of a doubt one or both of the two witnesses. I just mentioned him so that others can look him up and do more research about him, and regarding this possibility. But, with everything going on in the world lately, it seems like their time has definitely arrived.

By their actions I mean their God given supernatural power to stop the rain - to stop Any attempt to stop their ministry the people who try to kill them will die in their attempt to kill them, until their 3 1/2 year ministry has finished - Their Time is Not yet - there are TWO Witnesses not one , There are people saying they Are the Christ - just as Jesus said there would be - but they are false christs -


Philippians 3

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.

8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ

9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

 

[gomerian]

They would be members of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.
.

There will only be 144,000 people in that church at that time?

 

[seventysevens]

There will only be 144,000 people in that church at that time?

what do you mean by that ?

 

[gomerian]

By their actions I mean their God given supernatural power to stop the rain - to stop Any attempt to stop their ministry the people who try to kill them will die in their attempt to kill them, until their 3 1/2 year ministry has finished - Their Time is Not yet - there are TWO Witnesses not one , There are people saying they Are the Christ - just as Jesus said there would be - but they are false christs -

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.