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The Rapture

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molly said:
No wonder Jesus had to keep telling His apostles everything over and over again, we just don't listen. You are entitled to your wisdom, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.Man's logic is folly to God so we'll just have to take a wait and see attitude. Let us pray that Our loving Father would not allow us to go through what is going to happen.


I do not have to wait and seesince God is not a Liar I can take Him for His word.

thanks to are almighty God who has placed us up in the heavenly's while we were sinners what a gracious God and mercyful toward all that He choses.
Amen
 
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marvin

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
it is the only one the bible speeks of.......

falling away in 2 thes 2:3 in greek is a snatching away in latin it is called rapture....
I'm not saying there is no rapture. I was commenting on the interpretation of when....
 
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marvin

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
I do not have to wait and seesince God is not a Liar I can take Him for His word.

thanks to are almighty God who has placed us up in the heavenly's while we were sinners what a gracious God and mercyful toward all that He choses.
Amen
I looked at your profile and see you use KJV (are you a KJV only person?) that is a Scofield Bible. We have Scofield to thank for the popularizing of the pre-trip rapture theory.
 
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Angel4Truth

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marvin said:
I looked at your profile and see you use KJV (are you a KJV only person?) that is a Scofield Bible. We have Scofield to thank for the popularizing of the pre-trip rapture theory.

I was pretrib before getting scofield bible......

KJV only? no

I have greek and english Interlinear new testament bible
 
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Angel4Truth

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Axion said:
I wouldn't take "Rapture Ready" as a source for anything.

It's a very bitter, sectarian site.

The fact is the "pre-trib" rapture is a modern theory, not taught by any Church before 1820
Got anything factual to back that up , several people have put money on that same claim and lost tons of it when it was shown dated much further back , you may not like Rapture ready , but you cannot dispute the information give in the links I gave apparantly , how about some real information instead of bashing?
 
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R.E.Taet

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
falling away in 2 thes 2:3 in greek is a snatching away in latin it is called rapture....
Sorry, I couldn't resist.

"falling away" in 2 Thess. 2:3 is Strong's #646 - "ἀποστασία" "apostasia"

Here is the other time #646 is found in the New Testiment

Acts 21:21
and they have been informed concerning thee, that thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children neither to walk after the customs.

Now, according to Bethren this could be translated "rapture" -- in Latin, (its a Greek word, but if it was translated to Latin it could be translated as "rapture" Brethren says) So the verse would read "thou teachest all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to rapture Moses" Hmm, I think that "apostasia" means to fall away or apostate. Rapture does not fit in this context.

I think I am going to stick with the Greek definition of the Greek word "apostasia" - forsake or fall away, apostate.
 
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Dr. Jackal

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Well, all the things that happen to those who are left behind kind of fall into place after the rapture occurs. To sum things up when the believers are "caught up" i.e. "raptured" there will be no more reason for God to with hold his judgement from the earth so all of those bad things happen. However, since no one knows when the rapture is supposed to happen this is at best an educated best. I'm not sure how many believers share this opinion but I"m fairly sure it's pretty common. As far as scriptures are concerned, Paul writes about it in I Corinthians 15. It takes reading the whole chapter to get a better understanding of why Paul is teaching about this catching away. Hope that helps some.
 
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1 cor 15:23 but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits[1st group]; afterward they that are Christ's[possessions] at his [2nd] coming

states two groups with in this scripture

1 cor 15:51 Behold I will tell you a mystery; We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in an twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incoouptible, and he shall be changed. 53 for the corruptible[believers] must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

this is a different resurection than dan 12:2 because they knew of the great white throne Judgement from Daniel so why would this be a mystery ......

The last trump.....

lets talk about this!!!!

I have heard people talk about the trumpet of Revelations which are of angels. BUT 1 thes 4:16 talks about the trump of God yet in Revelations there is no trump of God?? why

this is a diffent trumpet where God calls his children up....those with ears to hear.....since we are his bride[ the church] would a groom put her through grief before the wedding? only if one wants a anulment
 
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R.E.Taet

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
1 cor 15:23 but every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits[1st group]; afterward they that are Christ's[possessions] at his [2nd] coming
It says that first Christ is raised, then those that are His.

How about we look at that verse in context:

1Co 15:19 If we have only hoped in Christ in this life, we are of all men most pitiable.
1Co 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.


Christ is the firstfruits. (firstfruits is singular)
"Christ the firstfruits" (no "and" there, )
"Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep."

It says that first Christ is raised, then those that are His.

This seems to be a misunderstanding due to the way some versions translate this verse, it is accurate as it is, but it can lead to confusion. Here is that verse in the Amplified Bible version that I believe gives us a better insight into what the Greek says, as it pertains to this debate:
1 Co 15:23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming

Other versions such as the "New Living Translation," "New Life Version," "Contemporary English Version," "Worldwide English," "Young's Literal Translation" and others have translations a little more clear in this aspect

R. E. Taet
 
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R.E.Taet

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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
states two groups with in this scripture
Oops - Forgot to conclude

In fact the verse does reference two groups - Christ and Christ's own.
However, it refers to one group of believers that is to be "made alive." In the other group is Christ alone.
This verse says nothing about two groups of believers that are to be "made alive."

R. E. Taet

EDIT(3/8/04):

One more point, This verse actually argues for one coming of Christ to gather His own:
"
then those who are Christ's [own will be resurrected] at His coming"
Note - "
His coming" - Singular, its not "His comings," But instead its one singular event when He comes for His own.
 
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A Brethren IN CHRIST said:
BUT 1 thes 4:16 talks about the trump of God yet in Revelations there is no trump of God?? why

this is a diffent trumpet where God calls his children up....those with ears to hear.....since we are his bride[ the church] would a groom put her through grief before the wedding? only if one wants a anulment

Here is a quick comparison of 3 Trumpets found in the NT that concern the End Times Mat. 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16.

Mat. 24:31
Trumpet Reference - "and He shall send forth his angels with the sound of a great trumpet"
Related events (taken from context)
1. Happens after the Trib (v29)
2. Son of Man appears in the clouds (v30)
3. The elect will be gathered (v31)

1 Cor 15:52

Trumpet Reference - "the trumpet shall sound"
Related events (taken from context)
1. its the Last Trump (v52)
2. "dead shall be raised" (v52)
3. "we shall be changed" (v52)

1 Thes 4:16
Trumpet Reference - "with the trump of God"
Related events (taken from context)
1. The Lord will descend from Heaven (v16)
2. "dead in Christ shall rise first" (v16)
3. "we that are alive... shall... meet the Lord in the air" (v17)

Now you would say that the trumpet from Mat. 24 and 1 Cor 15 are different from the trumpet found in 1 Thes 4, since they both happen after the Trib. (Mat 24 because it says, "Immediately after the trib," 1 Cor 15 because it is the last, so it must the same as Mat 24; as well as the similar events surrounding them both)

I would say that the 1 Thes 4 trumpet is the same as the other two.
Its being "of God" does not contradict the other two verses.
It also shares events with the two other verses (which if 1 Thes 4 is not about the same thing, the events must happen twice)

1a. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" - 1 Thes 4
1b. The Son of Man appears in the clouds - Mat 24

2a. "dead in Christ shall rise first" - 1 Thes 4
2b. "dead shall be raised" - 1 Cor 15

3a. "we that are alive... shall... meet the Lord in the air" - 1 Thes 4
3b. The elect will be gathered - Mat 24
3c. "we shall be changed" - 1 Cor 5

Now, unless you can tell me that Jesus will come twice, The dead will be raised twice, and we will be gathered twice, then these verses are all about the same event that happens AFTER the Tribulation. And the Trumpets in Revolations, they were given to the angels, there is nothing that says whose they are or who gave them to the angels, so there is no contradiction to them being God's trumps
 
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Here is a quick comparison of 3 Trumpets found in the NT that concern the End Times Mat. 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16.


Matt 24:15 and Daneil 9:27 the last 7 years of Jews ... there judgement for failure!

Mat. 24:31

Trumpet Reference - "and He shall send forth his angels with the sound of a great trumpet"
Related events (taken from context)
1. Happens after the Trib (v29)
2. Son of Man appears in the clouds (v30)
3. The elect will be gathered (v31) who is this 144,00 Jews



1 Cor 15:51 I will tell you a mystery...first time told
Trumpet Reference - "the trumpet shall sound"
Related events (taken from context)
1. its the Last Trump (v52)
2. "dead shall be raised" (v52)
3. "we shall be changed" (v52)

1 Thes 4:16
Trumpet Reference - "with the trump of God"
Related events (taken from context)
1. The Lord will descend from Heaven (v16)
2. "dead in Christ shall rise first" (v16)
3. "we that are alive... shall... meet the Lord in the air" (v17)

Were is the dead as in Rev 20:11-15 that does not happen till after Kingdom!

Now you would say that the trumpet from Mat. 24 and 1 Cor 15 are different from the trumpet found in 1 Thes 4, since they both happen after the Trib. (Mat 24 because it says, "Immediately after the trib," 1 Cor 15 because it is the last, so it must the same as Mat 24; as well as the similar events surrounding them both)

last trump of God vs last trump of angels

sounds different to me

I would say that the 1 Thes 4 trumpet is the same as the other two.
Its being "of God" does not contradict the other two verses.
It also shares events with the two other verses (which if 1 Thes 4 is not about the same thing, the events must happen twice)

5 different resurections
#1 Christ
#2 the Church
#3 Two witnesses rev 11:11
#4 OT & Tribulational saints rev 20:4-5
#5 Dead Rev 20:11-15


1a. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout" - 1 Thes 4
1b. The Son of Man appears in the clouds - Mat 24

2a. "dead in Christ shall rise first" - 1 Thes 4
2b. "dead shall be raised" - 1 Cor 15

same event

3a. "we that are alive... shall... meet the Lord in the air" - 1 Thes 4
3b. The elect will be gathered - Mat 24..
dealing with different group
3c. "we shall be changed" - 1 Cor 5

Now, unless you can tell me that Jesus will come twice, The dead will be raised twice, and we will be gathered twice, then these verses are all about the same event that happens AFTER the Tribulation. And the Trumpets in Revolations, they were given to the angels, there is nothing that says whose they are or who gave them to the angels, so there is no contradiction to them being God's trumps


heaven cloud there are differences
 
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JeffreyLloyd said:
No we don't. Either did any other Christian up until 1800's. In 1830, a Scottish visionary, who belonged to a sect known as the Irvingites, claimed while in a trance that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism.

Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote:



As far as the millennium goes, as Catholics we agree with Saint Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term.

The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).

catholic.com

That is COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY INCORRECT.

Amillenialism did not appear until Augustine's time, with some Manichean influences.

Justin Martyr and Tertullian stated that they believed in a Rapture. Not to mention that Margarte McDonald and John Nelson Darby were NOT the founders of PreTribulationism:

http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/apologetics/prophecy/macdonaldwho.html

The first problem with the MacDonald origin is the fact that she wasn't the one that widely taught the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture. A man named John Darby is believed by many to be the one who started the modern interest in the rapture. The question here is how did Darby come to hear of MacDonald's vision?
Proponents like Dave MacPherson and John L. Bray have never been able to prove that Darby ever heard of MacDonald or her vision. Darby himself claims the revelation of the rapture came to him when he realized the distinction between Israel and the church. Darby reported that he discovered the rapture teaching in 1827 - three years before MacDonald had her vision.

When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, It becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulation one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist.

John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine that teaches a two staged event - Christ first coming for His Church and then seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, I find it very difficult to see any linkage here.

By far the biggest mistake post-tribulationists have made in their attack on the rapture is their claim that the pretribulation rapture was never taught before 1830. In fact, John L. Bray, a Southern Baptist Evangelist, offered $500 to anyone who could prove that someone taught the rapture doctrine prior to MacDonald's 1830 vision.

John L. Bray was first proven wrong when in a newsletter. Bray wrote, "Then my own research indicated that it was Emmanuel Lacunza, a Jesuit Catholic priest, who in the 1812 book "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty," first taught this theory." [yep, that's right, a Catholic Pre-Trib!] Bray stuck his neck out again when he made another $500 offered to anyone who could provide a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's 1812 writings.

Well, apparently he had to cough up the 500 bucks. I quote him again, "I offered $500.00 to anyone who would give a documented statement earlier than Lacunza's time which taught a two-stage coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time.

No one ever rightfully claimed that $500.00 offer until someone found writings that forced Bray to write the following: "Now I have the Photostat copies of a book published in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1788 but written in 1742-1744 in England, which taught the pretribulation rapture before Lacunza."

Lately, a number of other sources have been location that teach the pretribulation rapture - some written as early as the second century. Now where does this leave Margaret MacDonald?
 
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