The Rapture

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Kingdom_Come

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timlamb said:
BIBLICAL FACT, the bride, the church, do not face the wrath of God which is mentioned in Revelation chapter 15 and 16. Rom. 5:9 and 1Thes. 1:10, a promise.

This might be one point we agree on. The church will not face the wrath of God. However they will face the wrath of Satan. These are different things. Also the saints of God will be spared His wrath at His coming by being gathered to Him. The battle that happens there will destroy many.

timlamb said:

No this is the second coming. Paul never reveals anything different in this passage to indicate it is anything other than the same event described by Daniel and Jesus. To assume he is speaking about a separate event is to do just that, assume. He is merely reminding them of the promise of the second coming for comfort. Thus he does not go into detail about all the events which must precede it. In other passages he makes clear that certain things must precede it. In the case of Jesus and Daniel they are putting the event where it belongs in relation to all the events which must precede it.

timlamb said:
but the bride is ready, in heaven, before the second comming, Chapter 19

Read Revelation 19:1. The first few words give the timing as to when John saw this and what events have already transpired as of this time. It is in total agreement with Daniel 11 and 12. In Revelation Chapter 18 the voice from heaven called out the church because it is at the fall of that last great nation, the final king of the north in Daniel and Mystery Babylon in Revelation, that the gathering takes place and He is returning to destroy the beast and his armies thus the saints are being gathered and removed. Again Revelation 19 is a poor choice to use for proving pre-trib because Revelation 16-18 describes the things that the events in Revelation 19 come after not before.
 
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timlamb

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This might be one point we agree on. The church will not face the wrath of God. However they will face the wrath of Satan. These are different things. Also the saints of God will be spared His wrath at His coming by being gathered to Him. The battle that happens there will destroy many.[/FONT]
Satans fury is all through the tribulation, I'm not sure where God's wrath fits in the timeline, but the rapture preceeds it, and it doesn't sound like anyone comes out during satans fury.

No this is the second coming. Paul never reveals anything different in this passage to indicate it is anything other than the same event described by Daniel and Jesus. To assume he is speaking about a separate event is to do just that, assume. He is merely reminding them of the promise of the second coming for comfort. Thus he does not go into detail about all the events which must precede it. In other passages he makes clear that certain things must precede it. In the case of Jesus and Daniel they are putting the event where it belongs in relation to all the events which must precede it.
What is missing in this depiction is what follows immediately after Jesus rides out of heaven "He judges and makes war...a sword with which to strike down the nations...He will rule them with an iron scepter...." and the winepress of His fury and wrath makes a blood bath



Read Revelation 19:1. The first few words give the timing as to when John saw this and what events have already transpired as of this time. It is in total agreement with Daniel 11 and 12. In Revelation Chapter 18 the voice from heaven called out the church because it is at the fall of that last great nation, the final king of the north in Daniel and Mystery Babylon in Revelation, that the gathering takes place and He is returning to destroy the beast and his armies thus the saints are being gathered and removed. Again Revelation 19 is a poor choice to use for proving pre-trib because Revelation 16-18 describes the things that the events in Revelation 19 come after not before.
Revelation is not a chronology, so we have to assume some things by their characteristics, like the fact that the marraige is in heaven and the is not part of the events of chapter 21 or later so it would appear to be pre second comming IMO.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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timlamb said:
Revelation is not a chronology, so we have to assume some things by their characteristics, like the fact that the marraige is in heaven and the is not part of the events of chapter 21 or later so it would appear to be pre second comming IMO.

Not all are but some are. Where it is written plainly that some things precede something else or some things come after something else I take it at what it says. Revelation 19:1 sets the state for what we read in the rest of the chapter. “And after these things…”. What things did these events come after? I would take it to be the same events he was describing right before he gets to this passage, that being the destruction of Mystery Babylon and the calling out of the church. Chapters 17 and 18 describe this. Chapter 16 describes events leading up to the judgment of Babylon and concludes with God remembering Babylon and passing judgment. So these things are all linked. Chapters 17 and 18 then go on to describe specifics about Mystery Babylon and its judgment. Chapter 19 then says “And after these things…”, which tells us what is happening after the judgment of Mystery Babylon is fulfilled. Again this agrees with what Christ, the apostles and the prophets stated. You don’t interpret the plain in light of the obscure; you interpret the obscure in light of the plain. After these things are completed the bride is now ready. After these things they are called to the marriage supper of The Lamb. It hasn’t happened before these things because they are being called to it after these things. We are told “Blessed are they which are called” not “Blessed are they which [have already participated in]”. And here Christ is coming back to fight the battle of Armageddon. Just as Paul describes His bride is gathered to meet Him in the air. The saints meet Him at His coming.
 
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Hismessenger

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Mighty Mouse,

that was an excellent post with sound biblical reasoning. The word has said that all OUR works will be tested by fire and that fire is the refining of the true believer. Those who think that they should be taken are going to miss that fire but I for one want the true blessings and reward that await us at the end.

Hismessenger
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Scripture says God is like a silversmith.

To remove all the impurities from silver, the smith holds the silver over the fire for just the right amount of time.

How does he know it is ready?
The silversmith can see his image in it.
But the scourging of every son He receives is done in every person's life individually, who has ever been received by the LORD, while they have their being and walk in their human bodies of the first creation -and the Lord chastises His sons as needed: He doesn't save up all the chastizing of the entire Church age to do to those of the Church on earth whom you would want to be alive to go through the Great Tribulation, to suffer the wrath of God or Satan or men -to 'purge them! No!! The Church is purged by the blood alone: The Church, itself, is a pure Church, without spot or wrinkle, washed in the blood of the Lamb and not cleansed by the wrath of satan:), or man.

But He does save the wicked up to be released on earth in full force after the Church is removed, for the one generation of the wicked to receive the wrath of God poured out upon them for their rebellion against God and His Son.

The demons whose spirits were made for destruction are released from hell, who are bound there [since after the flood, only 10% of them were left to roam earth and torment and afflict Adam-kind until their appointed day of judgment and everlasting condemnation and final removal from earth and sheol below [spoken of in 1 Enoch, when they are cast into the everlasting fire and tormented forever, when the Messiah sets up His kingdom on earth], and the rebel angels who are those principalities and powers, those rulers of darkness in the heavenly realm over earth who rule from the heavenly realm in wickedness until the LORD takes His great power and reigns and casts down all spiritual thrones over earth will also be cast down to earth at that time; and the men who align with them to try to overthrow the throne of the LORD above and below will all perish at His coming -and that is the 'one' generation of the wicked who see the wrath of God and pass away at his coming [Psalm 37 speaks of that time].
And "woe to all the inhabitants of the earth" =there is no "woe to the Church"!.
Missing that time is only possible for those who are members of His One Church who will be removed from earth to celebrate their priesthood in the Holy of Holies above, and are not inhabiting the earth in that black, dark night.


But the Church does not see the wrath of God poured out on the inhabitants of earth as the Church is in heaven celebrating the consecration of their priesthood -as the Living Oracles teach us in Leviticus 8; Psalm 50; Isaiah 26:19-21; Psalm 75:2,3 [in Hebrew] and Numbers 10:1-7, for beginnners.

God alone is Father to His sons and chastises them as they need it when they live in their bodies on earth, individually.
Nothing is saved up for the night of that last Day for the Church to need to be purged of.
 
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jeffweeder

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What do you think this means YSM

REV 16--6 bowl
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world[9][Lit inhabited earth ], to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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What do you think this means YSM

REV 16--6 bowl
13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world[9][Lit inhabited earth ], to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.
15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
16 And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.
I think it means what it says -what do you think?
 
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jeffweeder

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I think it is saying that the lord has not yet come back, even during the sixth bowl. And if he has not yet come back, then the ressurection hasnt happened , And if the ressurection hasnt happened, that means the dead in Christ havent been raised yet. And if the dead in Christ havent been raised that means that we are still here, because the living can in no way precede to the lord, before the dead are raised.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I think it is saying that the lord has not yet come back, even during the sixth bowl. And if he has not yet come back, then the ressurection hasnt happened , And if the ressurection hasnt happened, that means the dead in Christ havent been raised yet. And if the dead in Christ havent been raised that means that we are still here, because the living can in no way precede to the lord, before the dead are raised.
While I disagree with you about the rapture or harvest of Pentecost and when it begins and ends and when the second harvest's firstfruits are taken to heaven as perfected sons of God; and when the second harvest's ingathering is ended -which is typed in the Feast of Tabernacles- I do not question your salvation or your being my brother in Christ.
I want to again state that I do not think this issue is one of salvation, for one is not born again by 'doctrine', but by the Word Himself, giving us Life in Him by His spirit.

That said: the oracles teach us about the perfected sons going into the Holy of Holies [in fact, we "are" the True Holy of Holies which Moses saw and copied, as that City built foursquare, in which is the Ark of the Covenant, with the True Mercy Seat covering, upon which is the glory of the Father indwelling], to be celebrating the consecration as priests there, for the entire seven years -while some are martyred and wait under the Altar outside the Sanctuary for their dressing in garments of glory and some are taken in regenerated bodies for the glory as the firstfruits of the second harvest [the 144,000 of the twelve tribes -Dan excluded, Joseph split].

What Daniel saw, when the angel revealed to Him what was written in the Scripture of Truth [which is written in heaven on tablets by the Living Word, for the angels to read and know and uphold the will of God about], for Daniel's people in the end of the indignation was for this time and was about His people and the final battle for the throne.

Those who remain on earth for this time are not the Church and the time is not about the Church -which is in heaven in the Holy of Holies celebrating their consecration as priests unto Him, standing before the Son of Man in Garments of Salvation, which garments they receive from Him, made in His image for the glory.

The sons perfected return to do battle with Him with the holy angels at the end; and there is first; the return on the white horse, followed by the saints in the robes of fne linen, and the flying about Jerusalem, as birds flying about, defending Jerusalem, and the coming on His throne of glory as Lightning from the east to Mt Sinai in the wilderness, to judge the elect, there [those remaining seed of the nation of Israel], and the sheep Gentiles and the goat Gentiles -in their order, as the armies of the beast will have already been dispatched and the demons already gathered and cast into the lake of fire, and the fallen "rulers" of the world [seventy of them, angels who rule the nations as those principalities and powers, on the seven hills Enoch saw, which will melt like wax at His coming, with the hosts of demons under them] having been bound and cast into the lake of fire and the devil bound for the thousand years.

There is a resurrection at the end of the seven years -but only of the martyrs of the seven, for they are called from the ends of heaven when the elect are gathered by angels fom all the Gentile nations of the world -those still living -and from the ends of heaven -those martyred; which is in Ezekiel 20:33-44; Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27; Daniel as the resurrection of the righteous, and Revelation as the martyrs' resurrection which ends the first resurrection.

Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Rev 20:4¶And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision [is] for [many] days.

The angel showed Daniel two resurrections; the resurrection of the damned and the resurrection of the righteous. those who have part in the first resurrection escape the damnation of the second death.
All the righteous are resurrected at the beginning of the end and those who became justifed after the Church was removed and are martyred are resurrected at the end of the indignation, which is the beginning of the thousand years.


What John saw was what Enoch also saw, and what Zechariah, Isaiah, and Ezekiel, esp, speak of, and the final end is not yet opened for the Church isn't taken, and the two eyewitnesses =representing the law and the prophets, cannot come to Jerusalem to preach the Messiah until the Church is removed and the final man of sin revealed.
 
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jeffweeder

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While I disagree with you about the rapture or harvest of Pentecost and when it begins and ends and when the second harvest's firstfruits are taken to heaven as perfected sons of God; and when the second harvest's ingathering is ended -which is typed in the Feast of Tabernacles- I do not question your salvation or your being my brother in Christ.



Thankyou , and you are my sister in Christ.
No matter what happens, Jesus is still the lord and we should let him shine through our lives.
Its about saving the lost and the world will know if we really do love one another.
Gods finest blessings to you and to all :hug:
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Thankyou , and you are my sister in Christ.
No matter what happens, Jesus is still the lord and we should let him shine through our lives.
Its about saving the lost and the world will know if we really do love one another.
Gods finest blessings to you and to all :hug:
Amen!
The most important thing in the world for any person is to be born again while they have breath, as the end may come next breath for any person and nothing matters then but knowing that one has believed Jesus has paid for their sins and they belong to Him.

If they are right with the LORD, then they will go to be with Him whether at the death of the body or at the translation of the body if alive til He comes.
God bless you!
 
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timlamb

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Thankyou , and you are my sister in Christ.
No matter what happens, Jesus is still the lord and we should let him shine through our lives.
Its about saving the lost and the world will know if we really do love one another.
Gods finest blessings to you and to all :hug:
I'll say amen to that also, God Bless you all!
 
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