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I appreciate the initial concern. However, I can testify that that is not the case. I have been reading the Bible cover to cover since childhood. I have had in the past, honestly, no personal interest in the apocalypse. People tried to interest me, and I had no interest. Personally, I study grace. That's "my field". I saw no reason to study eschatology. However, the Holy Spirit Himself began to prompt me in my personal prayer.Yes, Revelations is as much a relevant a book of scripture now as in anytime in history. Indeed, the text of Revelations is a warning to Christians of events that have already transpired and those to come so that we may sanctify ourselves and prepare for Christ Return. That we are agreed, my point of contention is interpreting Revelations as it was intended rather than being caught up in current events so much that we in error transform Revelations as to meet our own world view.
Sincerely, I am not one of these people who watches Jack Van Impe, I've never read "The Left Behind Series", and I don't even read any works on eschatology.
Furthermore, I am a person who for most of my life has refused to read the newspaper or watch tv. I read the Bible and pray. The Holy Spirit, in my prayer closet, directed me to look at current events and let me know the beast was rising. That's a personal testimony. So, THEN, I started to watch. What I am seeing is enlivened, to me, by the Holy Spirit I personally testify of personal conviction. So, now, I'm going to watch and pray.
As you see above, I don't much read "outside works". I don't watch television. I don't read the paper. I don't even listen to music. I commune and fellowship with the Holy Spirit, read the Bible, and pray. I have lead a pretty highly "separated" prayer closet life. (I mean as far as where I get my paradigms ~~ I don't like to source from other sources.) The Holy Spirit called me out to look at current events apprising me the 666 beast was rising. Then, prompted by the Spirit, I turned to look to see the structure of world economic and political systems. That's where I'm coming from.John's Revelation is meant for all Christians, for all periods of time, from the day his Revelation was made known to the world, to the day of Christ return. While 2nd century Christians may not have been able to know all the various details of the prophetic message of Revelations, these early Christians would have a good understanding of its true intent. While many people today struggle understanding the symbolism of Revelations, for a Second Century Christian familiar with other genres of prophetic writing, the mean would be clear. It is a matter for Christians today to respect the history of the early church and seek to understand the original intent of Revelations.
What a beautiful spirit of Christlike humility. Sometimes, Jesus shines so brightly through humility following admission of pride, that I can't see you now as prideful. I see Jesus shining.I apologize that my comments were denigrating and harmful. I admit that I was a bit prideful and my comment did mean to be critical, but I did not mean it to be an insult. I was never the less wrong and I am sorry.
I absolutely will not read those works to "learn". I have trusted the Bible and the Holy Spirit all my life since salvation as a small child. I was raised in a church where they told me that I was saved by human will and choice, must maintain that human will and choice, or else I would go to hell by "disobedience" in perpetual danger of "changing my mind about Jesus".Hopefully this comes off as more respectful. While I agree that we should study scripture through the guidance of the Holy Spirit it can also be very illuminating to study how Revelations has been interpreted throughout history. The history of the early church, the German and English Reformations, and the unique history of Christianity in America is fascinating. Let us not think that we can not learn from other great theologians such as Augustine and Luther who I believe were guided by the Holy Spirit in their interpretations of Revelations.
I can only tell you that I read the Bible for myself, and the Holy Spirit made me a 5 point Calvinist. And I looked that teacher in the eyes and said, "If any one whit of my salvation rests upon me rather than the Lord Jesus Christ, I am certain to go to hell." (That teacher was shocked and told me that I was a very good Christian and just needed to "stay" a good Christian. Well, my view is that I am not a good Christian but I have a Perfect Savior.) I do not trust "me". I trust Jesus. And am ever surprised at any who would trust themselves (when Jesus saved us from ourselves) rather than Jesus with their salvation.
Having always had the Holy Spirit awaken the scripture to me directly through my own Bible study and prayer, and having found Him a better teacher than anyone else, I am sticking with the Bible, Jesus, prayer, and the Holy Spirit as my teacher.
Thank you very much for your showcasing such Christlikeness in humility.
Laura
Jen, your position cannot be reconciled with mine. I believe I "see your position". I stated in another thread, yes, there is a form of desolation of Israel that is continuing to this day. Agreed. Yes, in the world we will have trial and tribulation and it continues to this day.
Agreed, the time remains to be seen when the 6th seal is opened ending the great tribulation through wrath.
However, we will not agree that there is no literal anti-christ rising in one world government who will commit a specific abomination of desolation (in addition to things that have already happened culminating in 70AD, etc.)
I'd prefer to agree to disagree. However, if you studied the New World Order and saw what is happening right now, you would see that the one world government is rising in a very orchestrated and planned manner through the global collapse of all currencies. So, even if you don't see it in scripture, it's happening right now and preparing to emerge. It's going to happen "real time". I'll agree to disagree and would prefer not to further debate these points with you.
I don't believe our positions will change without further information. I see your information. I see a different view of scripture. I also see everything lining up to fulfill the scripture as I see the scripture. I will not revert to your position. (If you check out my blog on Sotero as 666 beast -- you will see info about a "New International Order". He is moving forward declaring himself world ruler. I know much more of everything fast-tracked to bring that to rapid manifestation. It's absolutely "on track" to feasibly potentially happen by 7/04/2010.)
I think we need to agree to disagree and wait on the Lord to bring agreement (even if you think I'm wrong and it's me that will have to change).
God bless.
Justsurfing, I was not mocking you at all. Merely affirming your timeline.If you'd like to go joke around and mock people -- please do it elsewhere. This is for discussion of the Bible. On the Day that the burning of Revelation 18 occurs, everyone who is not prepared and on the land in the USA -- those who mock like those who mocked Noah -- are going to be burned alive and annihilated as persons were in Sodom and Gomorrah.
I know how upsetting it is when some people come around and mock you. It's happened to me before too, many times.
Just try and ignore it the best that you can and understand that we are all in different phases of spiritual development, if you know what I mean.
Some are a little more mature then others. Mature christians do not mock or belittle others.
July 4, 2010 has passed.
There will indeed be a new world order established. People will be saying "peace and security" as well as buying, selling, planting, building, marrying, eating, and drinking, as Scriptures tell us, when Jesus appears for us and the Day of the Lord begins.
The anti-christ is not going to take the stage until the church is gone. Rev 12 shows you that the church is in heaven when the devil is cast down.
the woman is all Israel, not just Judah....The people that the devil goes after, from that moment on, is the woman who is protected by God.
the 144,000 are from scattered Israel,It's no coincidence that Rev 7 shows that moment. - the church standing in heaven when the 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth.
IMO that is the entire time of the tribulation hour,Rev 9 still shows them sealed and protected in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal.
by saying that he is Jesus returned,In fact, Rev 13 says that the anti-christ ("mouth" of the beast) is going to blaspheme those who dwell in heaven.
he is accusing us while he is in heaven even today,He's not going to speak nice words about us after we're gone, apparently.
no one will be gone..the church is here for it all!He won't be able to deny we're gone so he's going to say some nasty things about us.
Rev 12:
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 13:
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Based on her OP, I'm guessing that her reference to 2010 was a typo; She probably meant to say July 4, 2012.July 4, 2010 has passed.
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Interesting way of putting thatAh! Messiah: always coming but never arriving.
Give it up.
July 4, 2010 has passed.
Typo... July 4, 2012 is what I've stated. I'll have to go back and fix that typo. Thanks for the heads up.
There will indeed be a new world order established. People will be saying "peace and security" as well as buying, selling, planting, building, marrying, eating, and drinking, as Scriptures tell us, when Jesus appears for us and the Day of the Lord begins.
The anti-christ is not going to take the stage until the church is gone. Rev 12 shows you that the church is in heaven when the devil is cast down.
Revelation 12 is showing the Kingdom of Heaven coming on earth. In Revelation 12:1, the church is shown arising in the full "dawn" of the glory of the Lord. This is "emblematic" and "symbollic" of arising in full spiritual maturity. The same symbolism is shown in the woman having two wings as eagles.
The church is on earth. Satan pursues the woman to persecute her. She is in the wilderness not in Heaven.
When the church rises, Satan is cast down. That is arising spiritually in sanctification in truth. When we arise in Kingdom power and authority we cast Satan under our feet. It is that dynamic. The scripture says, "Now is come the Kingdom and authority. " The announcement is not that the church has departed, but rather that the church has gained Kingdom power and authority over Satan on earth. The Kingdom of Heaven has come on earth rather than the church leaving earth to "go to" Heaven. The Kingdom is within. This is about sanctification in a special grace of God for those who experience this.
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The people that the devil goes after, from that moment on, is the woman who is protected by God. It's no coincidence that Rev 7 shows that moment. - the church standing in heaven when the 144,000 of Israel are sealed on earth. Rev 9 still shows them sealed and protected in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal.
The 144,000 are in Israel. They are sealed later than the group of Christians in Revelation 12. The group of Christians in Revelation 12 are in a completely protected "area". It's a literal nation with boundaries around it. The 144,000 are in a different situation. They are not a "nation" with boundaries. They appear to me to need to be individually sealed. It's comparing apples to oranges. They're not just the same and won't be spoken of just the same. There are martyred saints in Heaven, also, of course, etc. as a separate issue.
Based on her OP, I'm guessing that her reference to 2010 was a typo; She probably meant to say July 4, 2012.
In Christ,
Acts6:5
Justsurfing, I was not mocking you at all. Merely affirming your timeline.
In prior posts I have shown that the trumpets are well underway already.
If we are truly at the time point you believe then we are at the time of the two witnesses as well. Who in the media is speaking truth and providing testimony to God? Only Glenn Beck, that I see, and people around him.
Wait - Obama is the 666 beast? Obama?!
He doesn't seem that bad...
Rev12 teaches us otherwise...
Satan is on earth persecuting Christians...
overcoming the Saints with his flood of lies...
seducing them...
beguiling them...
eventually all but the 144,000 will be seduced by him,
including the rest of the church
I agree with a lot of what you have to say. Not everything. But I'll just focus on this. The church body of Revelation 12 is specifically protected by God.
Revelation 12: 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
This specific group of believers is "in a protected area". They are protected from the face of the serpent. Satan attempts to "reach" this group, but cannot penetrate to reach the land that they are on. Therefore, Satan having been frustrated in his endeavor, turns away from them to go pursue and attack the rest of the Christians on earth he can reach -- those who are not in the protected area:
Revelation 12:15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The scripture in Revelation 18:1-4 shows us God establishing protection for a specific area and group of Christians. This is occurring at the time of the abomination of desolations. The evil of the people has become full so the cup of wrath has become full. Yet, this is not at the end of the 7 year period where the 666 beast kingdom is destroyed worldwide. This specific land mass is burned with fire. There are witnesses outside of the land mass that see the burning of the land mass. Therefore, the timing coincides with the abomination of desolation. We see God's activity in Divinely Intervening to protect this specific group of believers from the 666 beast system as God calls them to come out to be protected from plagues and set apart to God. I submit that this group of Christians who "hear the cry" to come out are the Christians who "make the rapture". The "rapture" is not "rapture" out of this world. Rather, even as Lot was removed to a protected area, these Christians are removed to a protected area. In fact, the glory of the Lord surrounding them "forms" their protection (see Psalm 91) as the land is burned and all evil is destroyed from the land. Satan is cast out of the land through the purification of the fire. That is why Satan cannot enter the land in Revelation 12. The saints have arisen in full Kingdom power and authority in entire sanctification. What is "left" on the land is a Christian body in entire sanctification through Divine Intervention and special grace upon them empowering them to arise in that level sanctification. Thus, then are on a land mass with specific borders that can be defined. The land is then healed from the burning, their borders are sealed against Satan, and they are thus protected in the Kingdom of Heaven come on earth for the latter 3-1/2 years of the Great Tribulation. They "made the rapture" and "become" thereby the body of Christians shown in Revelation 12.
Revelation 18
1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Good! He doesn't want you to trust him. Seriously. He wants people to do their own homework. So much of what is perceived to be true is not. Apostate churches are just one example. Media "bias" is another.I have a different opinion, I guess, of Glenn Beck in general. ... I don't trust him.
Interview with President Barack Obama, Christianity Today, January 2008:
"You've talked about your experience walking down the aisle at Trinity United Church of Christ, and kneeling beneath the cross, having your sins redeemed, and submitting to God's will. Would you describe that as a conversion? Do you consider yourself born again?This single statement should be enough to send this entire thread and the original poster off into well-deserved oblivion.
I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful. I didn't 'fall out in church' as they say, but there was a very strong awakening in me of the importance of these issues in my life. I didn't want to walk alone on this journey. Accepting Jesus Christ in my life has been a powerful guide for my conduct and my values and my ideals."
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