The rapture occurs after the great tribulation

P92

Active Member
Jul 20, 2017
168
22
Pacific NW
✟23,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Sdowney,

So, if I'm hearing you right, you are saying that the rapture happens after the bowls/vials are poured out, which is the wrath of God. And we know that Antichrist will overcome the church (Rev 13:7).

But did not Paul say in 1 Thess 5:9 -

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."

?
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟102,598.00
Faith
Christian
Sdowney,

So, if I'm hearing you right, you are saying that the rapture happens after the bowls/vials are poured out, which is the wrath of God. And we know that Antichrist will overcome the church (Rev 13:7).

But did not Paul say in 1 Thess 5:9 -

"For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..."

?
Yes, God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through Christ.

How do the bowl judgements imply God's people are suffering His wrath?
The bowls are poured out on the beast's kingdom, none of God's people are around there.

And we are appointed to a salvation which will be revealed in the LAST time, at the revealing of Christ, when He returns.

v5, v13, can you see the connection to the Last time?
The grace to be brought to us is one of glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, which is the second advent. We are saved now, but we have not formally received our inheritance yet.

1Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

13 Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; 15 but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Hebrews 9 also teaches the same exact thing about our salvation!
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

So what does he save us from? The wrath of God poured out on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel, they are punished at His return, which ultimately means hell and the Lake of Fire at the end for them. We are saved from all that.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

P92

Active Member
Jul 20, 2017
168
22
Pacific NW
✟23,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
By your logic, Paul should have told the Thessalonians that they had nothing to fear about the Day of the Lord, since they would be preserved through it. But that's not what he says. He instead sees it as a natural thing that they should fear if the Day of the Lord had already come:

2 Thess 2:1-1
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come."
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟102,598.00
Faith
Christian
We are not to fear the Day of the Lord, if we are believers, because that DAY is our salvation.
When Christ returns, it is for our salvation from this present wicked age, and for believers at the end of the last days, in the last time, His returning is salvation, deliverance from their enemies, tribulations, persectutions.

Now why would Paul and Peter describe Christ's return as salvation, if everything was just a grand old time being had by all the believers when He returns? If you think everything is great, your having a wonderful time in this world and then Christ comes as a thief for you in the night, that is not what the scripture teaches, you have missed Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians teaching completely misunderstanding what it says.

People are overtaken by rational and irrational fears, and Paul is comforting the Thessalonians saying they had not and will not miss the Day of the Lord, Christ's returning for them. To have missed that DAY would be as an irrational fear.

AND Paul in the same chapter says the Thessalonians were chosen for salvation, they would not be lost. He would save them at the end, a salvation to be revealed in the LAST TIME, of the last day.
Relief and rest from the tribulations of the beast's kingdom against them, and from the wrath of God to be poured out on the beast and his people.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

P92

Active Member
Jul 20, 2017
168
22
Pacific NW
✟23,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We are not to fear the Day of the Lord, if we are believers, because that DAY is our salvation

Paul said to the Thessalonians

1 Thess. 5:1
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you."

Paul had already told them everything they needed to know about the Day of the Lord. Your claim is that he would have taught them that "that DAY is our salvation"

Why then were they in great fear?
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟102,598.00
Faith
Christian
Paul said to the Thessalonians

1 Thess. 5:1
"But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you."

Paul had already told them everything they needed to know about the Day of the Lord. Your claim is that he would have taught them that "that DAY is our salvation"

Why then were they in great fear?
I am not the only one to note that the fear they had was they had missed the DAY.
The events leading to that DAY come with observation, certain events to occur, which all must witness.
Those events are worldwide in scope, one thing that preterists miss, is in Luke 21.
How would you feel if a false teaching was going around saying the secret coming DAY of the Lord had come and you were left behind? The Day only comes unexpectedly for those who are not waiting and watching patiently for the Lord, v31, Christ tells us so that when we see the signs of the times, we can know He is near to returning.

To say He had returned and you were still here and nothing had changed means something is wrong with your salvation, your relationship with Christ, and your eschatology, your believing and living a lie.

Luke 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

35
For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luke 21 gives us many clues about the end days. V20 -23, is past and done.
We are now living in the time of v24.

The next major event is the great tribulation, then Christ's return. The great trib begins in v25, and things get progressively worse until the end, the Last Day. V32, Preterists cling to saying these prophecies are all past, but it is the 'this generation' the one that experiences the great tribulation that will not pass away till all things take place as spoken. It is not 'the generation of Christ's own time, to say that is silly because of v27. But I know preterists say v27 is already occured, and they are being foolish.

The Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Coming of the Son of Man
25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree
29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

P92

Active Member
Jul 20, 2017
168
22
Pacific NW
✟23,866.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Nah, this is hardly convincing. The "rest" of v. 7 is simply the judgment of God upon evil men (including those who were persecuting the thessalonians) at the second coming. It's not a reference to a rapture, but to the relief (figurative) that every saint that returns with Christ to witness the destruction of antichrist and his army will experience.

Like I said earlier:

Paul to the Thessalonians, according to the post-trib view:

"Guys, look it, Ahhh know that y'all trembling in fear that the Day of the Lawd come upon you, but take heart, that day it ain't come yet. A, B and C needs to happen first, then the Lord he come get us."

Someone in the audience:

"But Paul, you saying da Lawd come get us at DA END?"

Paul: "Mmm Hmm"

"So you mean we's gonna get killed by Anti-Christ and like Jesus said, almost no flesh will be saved, we gotta go through that?"

Paul: "Dats right, mmm hmm"

"And you saying youse encouraging us? Paul, we's already gettin' persecuted already. Maybe we should be soiling our britches after all!"

Paul: "Here's some Depends. Alright, let's all sing "I'll fly away" now". Errr-body, stay watchful now.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Dean,

Can you answer the questions I asked you? The above contains mere assertions which hardly rise to the level of an argument, and which I had already anticipated in my prior post on 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Re your claim that "nobody, saved or not, can escape the "pollutions of this world". First it contradicts entirely what Peter says and second,

1 John 2:14 says
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.

First off, since the point of salvation, can you name one person who has escaped the pollutions of this world?

Secondly, how do you explain away both Peter's and Paul's sins after the point of salvation?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Dean,

Where are your answers to my questions?

Still hearing crickets...

To which are you referring?

These:

The "never saved" argument doesn't work with 2 Peter 2:20-21.

#1. The expression "knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ" always refers to believers. Note carefully, it is not merely epignosis, but rather, epignosis of the Lord Jesus Christ.

#2. Please explain how someone who is "never saved" can escape the pollutions of the world.

#3. Please explain why it would have been better for them to have never known the way of righteousness if they were "never saved" to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I will assume that it is.

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." -2 Pet. 2:20-21 (KJV)

John Gill comments:

"2 Peter 2:20

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world,
&c.] The sins of it, the governing vices of it, which the men of the world are addicted to, and immersed in; for the whole world lies in wickedness, and which are of a defiling nature: the phrase is Rabbinical; it is said F17,
``he that studies not in the law in this world, but is defiled (amle ypwnjb) , "with the pollutions of the world", what is written of him? and they took him, and cast him without:''


these, men may escape, abstain from, and outwardly reform, with respect unto, and yet be destitute of the grace of God; so that this can be no instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints; for the house may be swept and garnished with an external reformation; persons may be outwardly righteous before men, have a form of godliness and a name to live, and yet be dead in trespasses and sins; all which they may have
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
The Vulgate Latin, and all the Oriental versions, read, our Lord, and the latter leave out, "and Saviour"; by which "knowledge" is meant, not a spiritual experimental knowledge of Christ, for that is eternal life, the beginning, pledge, and earnest of it; but a notional knowledge of Christ, or a profession of knowledge of him, for it may be rendered "acknowledgment"; or rather the Gospel of Christ, which, being only notionally received, may have such an effect on men, as outwardly to reform their lives, at least in some instances, and for a while, in whose hearts it has no place. Now if, after all this knowledge and reformation,
they are again entangled therein;
in the pollutions of the world, in worldly lusts, which are as gins, pits and snares:
and overcome;
by them, so as to be laden with them, and led away, and entirely governed and influenced by them:
the latter end,
or state,
is worse with them than the beginning;
see ( Matthew 12:45 ) . Their beginning, or first estate, was that in which they were born, a state of darkness, ignorance, and sin, and in which they were brought up, and was either the state of Judaism, or of Gentilism; their next estate was an outward deliverance and escape from the error of the one, or of the other, and an embracing and professing the truth of the Christian religion, joined with a becoming external conversation; and this their last estate was an apostasy from the truth of the Gospel they had professed, a reception of error and heresy, and a relapse into sin and immorality, which made their case worse than it was at first; for, generally, such persons are more extravagant in sinning; are like raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; and are seldom, or ever, recovered; and by their light, knowledge, and profession, their punishment will be more aggravated, and become intolerable.
FOOTNOTES:

F17 Zohar in Gen. fol. 104. 3. Vid. Bechinot Olam, p. 178."

Source

"2 Peter 2:21

For it had been better for them
Not that ignorance is good, or to be excused; but it would have been a lesser evil, and not so much aggravated:
not to have known the way of righteousness;
the same with "the way of truth", ( 2 Peter 2:2 ) , and "the right way", ( 2 Peter 2:15 ) , the Gospel, which points out the way and method of a sinner's justification before God, which is not by the works of the law, but by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them, and received by faith; and which teaches men to live soberly, righteously, and godly; and a large, notional, though not an experimental knowledge, these apostates had of the word and doctrine of righteousness, and indeed of the whole of the Christian religion, which may truly go by this name:
than after they have known [it];
owned, embraced, and professed it:
to turn:
the Vulgate Latin version, and some copies, as the Alexandrian and others, add, to that which is behind; to their former lusts, or errors, or worse, which they had turned their backs upon externally:
from the holy commandment delivered unto them;
by the commandment is meant the Gospel also, see ( 2 Peter 3:2 ) ( 1 Timothy 6:14 ) ; called holy, because of its nature and influence, and in opposition to the pollutions of the world; and which is the faith once delivered, ( Jude 1:3 ) , and which they received, as delivered to them; and, particularly, the ordinances of it, which they once submitted to, kept, and observed, as they were delivered to them, but now relinquished, or corrupted: wherefore, it would have been better for them to have been in their former ignorance, either in Judaism, or in Gentilism, since proportionate to a man's light is his guilt, and so his punishment, see ( Romans 2:12 ) ( Luke 12:47 Luke 12:48 ) ."

Source

Matthew Henry puts it this way:

" This consideration should prevent our being led away by these seducers; and to this he adds another (2 Pet. 2:20): it is not only a shame and disgrace to be seduced by those who are themselves the slaves of sin, and led captive by the devil at his pleasure, but it is a real detriment to those who have clean escaped from those who live in error, for hereby their latter end is made worse than their beginning. Here we see, First, It is an advantage to escape the pollutions of the world, to be kept from gross and scandalous sins, though men are not thoroughly converted and savingly changed; for hereby we are kept from grieving those who are truly serious and emboldening those who are openly profane; whereas, if we run with others to the same excess of riot and abandon ourselves to the sins of the age, we afflict and dishearten those who endeavour to walk as becomes the gospel, and strengthen the hands of those who are already engaged in open rebellion against the Most High, as well as alienate ourselves more from God, and harden our hearts against him. Secondly, Some men are, for a time, kept from the pollutions of the world, by the knowledge of Christ, who are not savingly renewed in the spirit of their mind. A religious education has restrained many whom the grace of God has not renewed: if we receive the light of the truth, and have a notional knowledge of Christ in our heads, it may be of some present service to us; but we must receive the love of the truth, and hide God’s word in our heart, or it will not sanctify and save us. Thirdly, Those who have, for a time, escaped the pollutions of the world, are at first ensnared and entangled by false teachers, who first perplex men with some plausible and specious objections against the truths of the gospel; and the more ignorant and unstable are hereby made to stagger, and brought to question the truth of doctrines they have received, because they cannot solve all the difficulties, nor answer all the objections, that are urged by these seducers. Fourthly, When men are once entangled, they are easily overcome; therefore should Christians keep close to the word of God, and watch against those who seek to perplex and bewilder them, and that because, if men who have once escaped are again entangled, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning."

Source

First off, I do not believe that those who are truly saved can apostatize. This brings a number of verses to bear that contradict the notion.

Secondly, as the commentaries show, there is nothing from the context of 2 Pet. 2:20-21 to indicate that whoever Peter was speaking of, were ever saved to begin with.

Furthermore, Arthur W. Pink writes concerning "knowledge":

"The Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4."

Source

As with the parable of the Sower:

"Who is the sower? In this case, it was Jesus. However, the sower is anyone who shares the gospel. What is the seed? It is the word of the kingdom. That is the gospel of the good news of Jesus Christ.

The first soil from the parable is the pathway. This soil is compacted and hard. Any seed falling there will simply bounce and set on top. It will not sink in so it can germinate. What happens to it? Birds came and devoured it. In the parable, who is represented by the birds? This is Satan, the devil. However, what is this soil’s problem? It is hard and compacted. Jesus was referring to hardhearted individuals. Their consciences have become hardened by their repeated sins and unrepentance. These are unbelievers; we know this because the gospel is being shared with them. The gospel has no affect on these people. It just bounces off their hard hearts and is grabbed up by the enemy. He lies to them by having them believe false teachings or points them to humanism or some other false religion. The soil of the pathway represents people who are the reprobate lost.

What does the rocky soil or ground represent? Remember this soil looks like plowed ground, but is shallow with a hard limestone layer just a few inches below. What happens when the gospel is heard by this soil? The seed springs up immediately. These people receive it with joy, but there has been no root development into the deeper moist soil. As soon as the heat comes the plants from these seeds die. In the analogy, these believers are those who hear the gospel and receive it joyfully, but there has been no regeneration in their heart. This represents those believers who are merely “converts” to religion. They have not truly believed. They look great at first, but as soon as they are called to get serious about their faith through discipleship or by public praying they simply fall away. They could also not bear up with the criticism from non-believers about their new faith. They prove that they were not truly regenerated by giving in to the persecution. The rocky or hard layer in their hearts represents an inner hardheartedness. They are still clinging to their fleshly past and will not repent. That is why God did not regenerate their hearts. The soil of the rocky soil represents people who are “temporary believers.”

What does the weedy or thorny soil represent? These people hear the gospel and appear to be genuine, but they are far more interested in money, possessions, entertainment, their job, or any other idolatrous thing than they are about abiding in Christ. By this, they prove they were not genuinely saved. How do we know this represents non-believers in church? They do not produce or bear fruit.

What I am getting ready to say may not be popular with many; however, the truth is the truth. How can we tell Christians from non-Christians? Genuine Christians are fruitful in the Kingdom. Disingenuous Christians are not.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.” (John 15:1-8 ESV)

According to this passage, genuine believers not only bear much fruit, they abide in Christ. Abiding in Christ is remaining and living completely attached in Him. That means the genuine believer is not in Christ for a season then not for another season then back in Christ for a season, etc. No, the genuine believer remains in Christ. Those who remain in Christ are fruitful. What happens to those who appeared to be attached to Christ for a while, but were unfruitful? The Father removes them and casts them into the fire. What is the fruit that genuine believers bear? Some is character fruit such as the fruit of the spirit which the Holy Spirit will manifest in the lives of those who abide in Christ.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-25 ESV)

Did you notice what those who belong to Christ Jesus have done? They have crucified the flesh with its passions and desire. That means they are not living for self, but are living for Christ as they abide in Him. This is behavioral fruit. It is closely associated with the character fruit. Genuine believers will not resemble the world. They will not be “summer soldiers.” That means they will remain in season and out. As the believer matures the fluctuations between obedience and disobedience they experience should become less and less. The more mature we become the more we abide in Christ and less we seek what the world offers in His place. We do that by applying Romans 12:1-2.

What is the last soil? It is the good soil. It represents believers who hear the gospel and understand it. These are genuine believers. They produce much fruit. As we have seen only those who abide (remain) in Christ are genuine believers. If they abide in Christ then they will be fruitful in the Kingdom.

The salvation of those represented by the good soil was a function of its condition instead of the proficiency of the sower. Anyone can throw the seed out there. The presentation of the gospel message by obedient seedsowers is what the Holy Spirit uses to plow the ground of the good soil. Salvation comes as He regenerates the hearts of those who will believe.

The condition of the soils is the determinant of the outcome of sowing good seed instead of the professionalism of the seedsower. The tendency of our post-modern Churches to revert to the world’s methods of marketing to “sell” the gospel to people is simply another indication that those “Christian Leaders” are ashamed of the gospel. They are far more concerned with numbers than with presenting the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit. They water it down so there is no call for repentance from sin. They produce large numbers of “converts,” but very few genuine believers."

Source

Some may look like Christians, some may even give the impression of being Christian, and there are some who look and appear to be Christians but all three are not nor ever were Christian.

Same with those Peter speaks of.

So much for 1 Pet. 2:20-21.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟102,598.00
Faith
Christian
A quick reminder, since the thread still has some interest of a proof that Christ returns at a time when you do not expect, since well most apparently thought He should have come long before this 6th bowl judgement, He reminds them He is coming as a thief in v15.

I think that thinking many people have of pre trib rapture is part of the great deception false teaching apostasy mystery of iniquity that works now before the great tribulation occurs. Since in Matthew 24, Christ offers warning that many will deceive many beforehand to tribulation and during and He is warning us over and over not to be deceived about His return but stay firm to the end. But see He is coming at an hour which you do not expect Him. Perhaps some of the professing church at this awful time have lost their faith that He will return at all and start scoffing at the promise of His coming.

After the sixth bowl judgement, poured out on Euphrates, Christ reminds the reader this.
Revelation 16

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.


When Christ says to watch, and keep your garments, means if you do as He says, you will retain your reward from Him. Otherwise, as a believer, when your work is tested in the fire, it will all burn up but you will still be saved, but as through fire, leaving nothing, no reward, but you naked for all to see, stripped . The foundation work is laid in your life by God, but you build on it.

And from those who do not have, what they have will be taken and given to Him who has. And don't be like them who lose everything.

When that happens is on that DAY. the person's spirit is saved only, but they lose everything, they are stripped naked by the fire of God's judgement for all to see.

1 Corinthians 3


9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field,
you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If Revelations had any truth to them
Why so cryptic
I mean was it put there to confuse us or warning us I don't get it
Why not come out and just say it even better yet give a particular date

Ok, here is a question for you.

Tell what these verses are saying:

"And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels." -Eze. 1:4-20 (KJV)

If you were back around 300 BC, and saw a man driving a tank, how would you describe it in 300 BC?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

sdowney717

Newbie
Apr 20, 2013
8,712
2,022
✟102,598.00
Faith
Christian
If Revelations had any truth to them
Why so cryptic
I mean was it put there to confuse us or warning us I don't get it
Why not come out and just say it even better yet give a particular date

1 Timothy 3:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.

2 Corinthians 12:3-5New King James Version (NKJV)
3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities.

The Mystery of the faith. It has not been granted for man to know some things, and has been granted for man to know somethings. Somethings are sealed for good reasons. Somethings are not lawful- authorized by God to be spoken of to men, but some men will know them as they are revealed to them by the Spirit.

But that does not mean they are to be shared with anyone else. Sometimes I have shared secrets and should not have. And also ' do not cast your pearls before swine.' God will not, so why should you? At least a forum offers some insulation. But still somethings are not authorized to be revealed. To do so would be against the will of God. Some people are not granted to know, it was why Christ spoke in parables, so that seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not understand. But to His disciples, which He chose, they were granted the understanding. We do not all function at the same level of knowledge regarding spiritual truth, and all truth must be revealed truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AfterThought

Thirst 2 Given & Know
Apr 11, 2016
115
20
USA
✟19,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ok, here is a question for you.

Tell what these verses are saying:

"And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings. And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass. And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings. Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward. As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle. Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies. And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went. As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning. And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning. Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces. The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went. As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four. And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels." -Eze. 1:4-20 (KJV)

If you were back around 300 BC, and saw a man driving a tank, how would you describe it in 300 BC?

God Bless

Till all are one.
Every time I read that it seems like the person who wrote it saw something that he could not describe very well
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,183
2,677
61
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟100,334.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Every time I read that it seems like the person who wrote it saw something that he could not describe very well

And that is any different than what John saw in Revelation how?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0