The rapture occurs after the great tribulation

P92

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I do note that the "church" (i.e.: Christians) are not spoken of after chapter 4.

God Bless

Till all are one.

This means that you believe the church is spoken of in the first 3 chapters.

Answer this then: speaking of the church at Thyatira, Christ says:

"21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works."

Why would Jesus want to cast believers into the great tribulation if according to your view, everyone goes up in a pre-trib rapture?

You will say, well, these are not true believers again. But John disagrees with you:

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
 
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DeaconDean

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The "never saved" argument doesn't work with 2 Peter 2:20-21.

#1. The expression "knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ" always refers to believers. Note carefully, it is not merely epignosis, but rather, epignosis of the Lord Jesus Christ.

#2. Please explain how someone who is "never saved" can escape the pollutions of the world.

#3. Please explain why it would have been better for them to have never known the way of righteousness if they were "never saved" to begin with.

We see from the gospel accounts, especially in the parable of the sower, where of the four "types" shown, three were never saved to begin with.

Furthermore, we have the statement from John:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

There are those even within the church, that give the appearance of being saved, but in reality, are not.

Secondly, nobody, saved or not, can escape the "pollutions of this world."

Scriptures tell us that the scripture (Gospel) is to be preached to every man, in every land. So, in one form or another, everybody will possess some knowledge of the truth and righteousness.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Pure eisegesis. Scripture says nothing of Roman armies.

That is your opinion, I have quoted sources.

Point-counterpoint.

You have not proven my source wrong, only given your opinion.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I'll take your refusal to address my pointing to the context of 1 Cor 3 as a sure sign of your mistaken view. Have you not learned in many decades that context, context, context is foundational to proper exegesis?

Re the Bema seat, see the parable of the talents. The one who was unfruitful with the gracious talent offered him is cast into the outer darkness. So much for only receiving rewards.

That's funny.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -1 Cor. 3:13-15 (KJV)

Our works, what we have done since becoming a Christian, will be tried. If its done out love, or done for selfish reasons for example, they will be burnt up. But if they don't they will receive a reward. And if they do burn up, they shall still be saved.

That is what it says.

"Every man's work shall be made manifest
The doctrine he preaches shall be sooner or later made manifest to himself, and to his hearers; who shall see the inconsistency, irregularity, and deformity of such a building; at first so well laid, then piled up with such excellent materials, and at last covered in with such trifling or incoherent stuff:

for the day shall declare it;
meaning not the day of judgment, though that is often called the day, or that day, and will be attended with fire, and in it all secrets shall be made manifest; but the apostle intends a discovery that will be made of doctrines in this world, before that time comes: wherefore this day rather designs a day of tribulation; as of persecution, which tries men's principles, whether they are solid or not; and of error and heresy, when men are put upon a re-examination of their doctrines, whereby persons and truths that are approved are made manifest; or of some great calamity, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, whereby many wrong notions the Jews yet retained were discovered: but it is best of all to understand this day of the Gospel day, and of the progress of Gospel light, especially in some particular periods of it; as in the primitive times, at the reformation from popery, and the more remarkable Gospel daylight, which will be in the latter times, when the impertinence and inconsistency of many things which now obtain in the ministry will be seen; see ( Ephesians 5:13 ) .
Because it shall be revealed by fire:
not that day, but the man's work, or doctrine:
and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is;
by the fire is meant, not the general conflagration of the world, when that, and all that is therein, will be burnt up; much less the fire of purgatory, the "papists" dream of, for the punishment of evil actions; for the apostle is not speaking of the actions of men, good or bad, but of the doctrines of ministers; rather the fire of tribulation and affliction, which, as it is for the trial of the grace of faith, so of the doctrine of faith, whereby it becomes much more precious than of gold that perisheth; or of some fiery dispensation of God's vengeance, as on Jerusalem: though the word of God, which is as fire, seems to be intended; which in some certain times so blazes forth, and will more especially in the latter day, that by the light of it, both ministers and churches will be able to see clearly the bright shining lustre of the gold, silver, and precious stones; and with so much heat, as to burn up the wood, hay, and stubble; when the difference between these things will be most easily discerned." John Gill Commentary, 1 Cor.3:13

"If any man's work abide
That is, if any minister's doctrine will bear the test of daylight, to be looked into, and abide the fire of the word; as gold, silver, and precious stones will, or such doctrines as are comparable to them, which will shine the brighter for being tried by this fire:

which he hath built thereupon;
upon the foundation Christ, in entire consistence with, and proportion to it, and highly becoming it:
he shall receive a reward;
either from the churches of Christ here, who shall honour and respect him for his faithful labours in the ministry; or from Christ hereafter, who will say, well done, good and faithful servant, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." -Ibid, 1 Cor. 3:14

"If any man's work shall be burnt
If any minister's doctrine he has preached shall be destroyed and disappear, shall be disapproved of, and rejected by the churches, not being able, to bear the light and heat of the fire of God's word:

he shall suffer loss;
of all his labour and pains he has been at, in collecting together such trifling, useless, and inconsistent things; and of all that glory and popular applause he might expect from men, on account of them, and which was the snare that drew him into such a way of preaching:
but he himself shall be saved;
with an everlasting salvation; not by his ministerial labours, much less by his wood, hay, and stubble, which will be all burnt up; but through his being, notwithstanding all the imperfections of his ministry, upon the foundation Christ:
yet so as by fire;
with much difficulty, and will be scarcely saved; see ( 1 Peter 4:17 1 Peter 4:18 ) ( Zechariah 13:9 ) with great danger, loss, and shame; as a man that is burnt out of house and home, he escapes himself with his own life, but loses all about him: so the Syriac version reads it, (arwn Nmd Kya) , "as out of the fire": see ( Zechariah 3:2 ) ( Jude 1:23 ) . Or the sense is, that he shall be tried by the fire of the word, and convinced by the light of it of the errors, irregularities, and inconsistencies of his ministry; either in his time of life and health, or on a death bed; and shall have all his wood, hay, and stubble burnt up, for nothing of this kind shall he carry with him in his judgment to heaven; only the gold, silver, and precious stones; and will find that the latter doctrines, and not the former, will only support him in the views of death and eternity." -Ibid, 1 Cor. 3:15

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." -2 Cor. 5:10 (KJV)

"The bema seat" is a reference back to the old Olympic games. The winner would apprear at the "bema seat" and there receive whatever the reward was.

"The Meaning of the Judgment (Bema) Seat

Both Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:9 speak of the “judgment seat.” This is a translation of one Greek word, the word bema. While bema is used in the gospels and Acts of the raised platform where a Roman magistrate or ruler sat to make decisions and pass sentence (Matt. 27:19; John 19:13), its use in the epistles by Paul, because of his many allusions to the Greek athletic contests, is more in keeping with its original use among the Greeks.

This word was taken from Isthmian games where the contestants would compete for the prize under the careful scrutiny of judges who would make sure that every rule of the contest was obeyed (cf. 2 Tim. 2:5). The victor of a given event who participated according to the rules was led by the judge to the platform called the Bema. There the laurel wreath was placed on his head as a symbol of victory (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-25).

In all of these passages, “Paul was picturing the believer as a competitor in a spiritual contest. As the victorious Grecian athlete appeared before the Bema to receive his perishable award, so the Christian will appear before Christ’s Bema to receive his imperishable award. The judge at the Bema bestowed rewards to the victors. He did not whip the losers.2 We might add, neither did he sentence them to hard labor.

In other words, it is a reward seat and portrays a time of rewards or loss of rewards following examination, but it is not a time of punishment where believers are judged for their sins. Such would be inconsistent with the finished work of Christ on the Cross because He totally paid the penalty for our sins. Chafer and Walvoord have an excellent word on this view:

With reference to sin, Scripture teaches that the child of God under grace shall not come into judgment (John 3:18; 5:24; 6:37; Rom. 5:1; 8:1; 1 Cor. 11:32); in his standing before God, and on the ground that the penalty for all sin—past, present, and future (Col. 2:13)—has been borne by Christ as the perfect Substitute, the believer is not only placed beyond condemnation, but being in Christ is accepted in the perfection of Christ (1 Cor. 1:30; Eph. 1:6; Col. 2:10; Heb. 10:14) and loved of God as Christ is loved (John 17:23).3

Again, Chafer writes concerning the Bema, “It cannot be too strongly emphasized that the judgment is unrelated to the problem of sin, that it is more for the bestowing of rewards than the rejection of failure.”4"

2 Hoyt, electronic media.

3 Lewis Sperry Chafer, Major Bible Themes: 52 Vital Doctrines of the Scripture Simplified and Explained, rev. John F. Walvoord, editor, Zondervan, Grand Rapids, 1974, p. 282.

4 Lewis Sperry Chafer, Systematic Theology, Vol. IV: Ecclesiology-Eschatology, Dallas Seminary Press, Dallas, TX, 1948, p. 406.

Source

As far as Mt. 25:30 is concerned:

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant
All the servants of Christ are unprofitable with respect to God; for no man can be profitable to him, as he that is wise may be profitable to himself, or others; or in a way of merit, since when they have done the most and best, they have done but their duty: but this man was unprofitable with respect to himself, having not improved the gift and talent bestowed on him; and with respect to men, being of no use for the conversion of sinners, or the comfort of saints, or the edifying of the body of Christ; and brought no honour to his master, and was of no service for the spreading of his Gospel, and the enlargement of his kingdom and interest; and therefore, as one good for nothing, the ministering angels are bid to take him, and cast him

into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth:
he shall be turned out of doors into outer darkness, to be a companion of other unhappy creatures; who are also without, bewailing their miserable condition, and reflecting on their past conduct; whilst faithful, diligent, and laborious servants will be within, partaking of a rich entertainment, prepared by their Lord, accompanied with joy unspeakable, and full of glory: (See Gill on Matthew 8:12)."

-Ibid, Mt. 25:30

There is reason for us to conclude that this servant given the talent, was saved to begin with.

In fact, did not Jesus say:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." -Lk. 17:10 (KJV)

"He is entrusting his wealth to three men who become stewards of his money. One receives five talents. Another receives two talents. A third steward receives one talent. Each is given a significant amount of money. These are stewards entrusted with the care of the money. The stewards must know the personality and character of their Lord. He expects them to know Him well enough to apply the spirit as well as the letter of His instructions. Those that do are richly rewarded. The others receive severe judgment. The amount given is based on each steward’s ability. The first two understand the spirit and letter of instructions and the character of their Lord. They both use the resources by "trading" to gain a profit. Each of them makes a 100 percent profit. Fear and mistrust of his Lord motivate the third steward. He buries the money in the earth and returns the original amount. The profitable stewards are praised, given increased responsibilities and invited to enter into the joy of their Lord. The untrusting steward is scolded, rejected, and punished.

The application of this parable must be understood within the context of the message of Matthew 24-25. It is first a message to the people of Israel that will live in the last days before the Lord returns. The statement, in Matthew 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved," is a key statement. This is the believing remnant that will receive the promise of the kingdom. In Matthew 24:32-34, the Lord states, "Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." These will be alive when He returns and will have understood and believed their Lord. The application to the people of Israel is graphic and relevant. Those that believe Him will be rewarded in His kingdom. The basis of the reward will be their stewardship of His resources entrusted to them. Those who fear and do not believe will be rejected and judged."

Source

There, does that sufficiently answer your questions?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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This means that you believe the church is spoken of in the first 3 chapters.

Answer this then: speaking of the church at Thyatira, Christ says:

"21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works."

Why would Jesus want to cast believers into the great tribulation if according to your view, everyone goes up in a pre-trib rapture?

You will say, well, these are not true believers again. But John disagrees with you:

4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Here, you are making assumptions.

Show me where they did not repent.

Secondly, a "Christian" will not willingly commit the acts of sin that are described herein. Yes, one will occasionally slip up and fall, but here again, has God ever lost one of His own?

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" -1 Jn. 3:8 (KJV)

So, to answer, I love how you "omit" parts of that passage.

I notice right off, that what is written to the church at Thyatira not everybody in that church was guilty.

Note: "I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." verse 19

So the "whole" church was not guilty.

Thirdly, He only had "a few things against thee".

And what was that?

"because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." -Rev. 3:20

And even then, God was gracious enough to give her time to repent:

"And I gave her space to repent of her fornication;"

And even at their worst, they are still given a chance to repent:

"except they repent of their deeds." verse 22

And finally:

"And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." verse 23

Notice well:

"and I will give unto everyone of you according to your works;
who have connived at, and joined with them in their evil deeds; as many as were seduced by the false prophetess to commit spiritual fornication with her: as Christ is omniscient, and does not judge according to the outward appearance of things, but knows the principles and ends of all actions, however covert they may be; so he is righteous in judging and in punishing, which will be according as men's works are; and not one shall escape his righteous judgment, nor the due desert of their sins, though the punishment of some may be greater than that of others." -John Gill Commentary on Rev. 2:23

"He that committeth sin is of the devil;" -1 Jn. 3:8 (KJV)

I know your going to deny it, but it clear that in that church, clearly there were two "types" there, those who were saved and had: "works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first." And then there were those who were not saved who: "commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

So "them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation" are a witness that these people, were not saved to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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In Matthew 24, the only rapture like event taught by Christ occurs after the great tribulation in verse 31. And those who are 'taken' are compared to those taken away by Noah's flood, and that means taken for destruction. Christ is speaking to believers here, His people, the 'YOU' are whom He is addressing, people like us who are reading this right now.

Wrong!

The very first verse in Matthew 24 tells us to whom Jesus was speaking to.

"and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple." -Mt. 24:1 (KJV)

I have heard it a number of times mainly from Catholics, but also lately by some of the Reformed faith that just as John 16:13 can't be applied to us today because Jesus was addressing the disciples specifically, the same principle applies to this passage.

I know how to play these games.

And since when is God's revelation restricted to only the Gospels?

I see Paul showing two different events in relation to end times.

This abomination of desolation is the same son of perdition that Paul teaches is revealed and stands in the place of God and assumes for himself everything that is God.

Agreed. That is why I showed that the Preterist point of fulfillment in AD 70 is incorrect.

For the elect's sake He shortens these days, God makes a quicker work of the end of days that He would if it was just the wicked left behind.
The wicked will perish with unrighteous deception, false wonders performed by Antichrist and a strongdelusion sent on them by God, note v24.

So, would you deny that there are some "elect" saved during that time of "great tribulation"? Would these not be considered the "elect"? Or would you deny Calvin's position on "election"?

Which my position on this is further strengthened by Rev. 7:14.

At this point Christ's return is imminent, the 'fig tree has leafed out tender leaves', but He tarries to the end of the great tribulation as His return is the end of the great tribulation time.

Which co-incidentally matches Rev. 19:11-21.

He says he comes at an hour which you do not expect, so for those who had expected Him before all these things, He did not come did He! He tarried, so they grew weary of waiting and scoffed. So the visible church went into apostasy, they did not keep faith watching and waiting for the Lord, they claimed He should have already have come for them, yet He did not as all these events they witnessed and lived through, still He has not returned. So they apostatized and scoffed and decided maybe it was all just a fraud, His promise to return. This is also a part of the strong delusion. Many will deceive many people, and the church will apostatize and some will worship the antichrist as Christ come again with false prophets pointing to that false Christ as the one who was to come.

Down through history, even immediately after Christ's death and resurrection already "antichrists" had arisen. (cf. 1 Jn. 2:18)

So is it a surprise then?

Christ is speaking to His disciples, but not only these particular disciples, Christ is speaking to His church which is on the earth at that future time of the end.
This teaching of the end extends all through time down to our present day, if it has not yet occurred! So it as fresh for us now as it was for them then.

Here again, you fail to look close to what scripture says.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:13-17, there is a "resurrection".

In 2 Thess. 1:7-8 and Rev. 19:11-21 there is no resurrection until after the beast, false prophet, and the antichrist is defeated.

Now Matt. 24:24 does say:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

But here again, this is nothing new as shown by 1 Jn. 2:18.

And even Mt. 24:24 does not agree with your interpretation.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The Greek:

"ἐγερθήσονται γὰρ ψευδόχριστοι καὶ ψευδοπροφῆται, καὶ δώσουσιν σημεῖα μεγάλα καὶ τέρατα ὥστε πλανῆσαι, εἰ δυνατόν, καὶ τοὺς ἐκλεκτούς:" -Mt. 24:24 (GNT)

If, mind you, even if such a thing were possible, those "antichrists" would cause the "elect" to stray. But, its not possible!

"In phrases:
εἰ δυνατόν (ei 1487 dunaton) possible (if it be) [KJV]
εἰ (ei 1487) if."

Source

If is one might strong word. If a frog had wings...

Jesus turns right around and John records:

"And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -Jn. 10:5, 27 (KJV)

Fact is, what is revealed to Matthew (and the other disciples) something else is revealed to Paul and which ever John wrote Revelation. So to say "X" says this, when "Y" says that, and then suppose "X" is the deciding factor is wrong. To say that Matt 24 is the argument to end all arguments refutes what is taught elsewhere in scripture.

And here again, you say Mt. 24:29 is the argument to end all arguments. I notice that Matthew 24 does not include (nor any of the other Gospel accounts) what Zechariah 14:4 says.

To be honest, Matthew 24 don't even include any hint of what Paul's reveals in 2 Thess. 1:7-8!

Also, to say that Matthew 24 is the argument to end all arguments puts the Gospel accounts in direct contradiction to what is revealed to both Paul and the John of Revelation.

What is revealed in Revelation is unique, so unique that it was withheld from the disciples. Only John (whichever John you decide on) was given this "special" revelation".

What you are trying to tell us is that lets suppose that it is possible that a Christian could do everything asked of him, even surpass what Peter and Paul could not do themselves. During this time (the Great Tribulation) God is going to allow the Saints to endure:

  1. Being conquered.
  2. Murder by others (War)
  3. Famine
  4. Death by what happens in the 4th seal. 1/3 of humanity
  5. Great events seen in the earth and heavens
  6. Then after the sealing of the 144000, followed by a half hour of silence
  7. More natural disasters
  8. a third of all grass and trees being destroyed
  9. another third of the waters being poisoned whereby another 1/3 of mankind will die
  10. Then to be tormented nigh and day by the creatures that come out of the bottomless pit
  11. Then fact the next thing to follow the "locusts" (except the 144000)
  12. Then another 1/3 of mankind is to die when the four angels are loosed (not to mention there is still no repentance at this time)
  13. Then, something so awful happens that John is not allowed to write about it
  14. Then we have the two witnesses, who have power to torture by fire and plagues and death, followed by the rise of the beast, and we haven't even reached to worst part yet
  15. Then comes the wrath of Satan!
I could go on and on.

You would have me to believe that I am going to have to endure/pay for my Christianity by hoping and praying that I am lucky enough to survive through all this and more, just because I am a Christian?!?

No sir! I do not, I will not accept it. 1 Thess. 1:10 forbids it.

Sorry

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Folks, here's the part about the "post-trib" view that, IMO, stinks to high heaven.

Lets assume that is the correct view. In the "post-trib" viewpoint, there is nothing, absolutely nothing to be gained by being saved in this time. (Present, at this very moment)

In the "post-trib" viewpoint, there is nothing to distinguish the saved from the unsaved as all will be punished, tormented, killed alike.

And if your not saved in this day and age, then have no fear, contrary to what Paul wrote (cf. 2 Thess. 2:9-12), there is still a chance at salvation during the great tribulation. Just hope that you become one of the martyred saints, that way you won't have endure what is left of the great tribulation.

In its logical conclusion, during the great tribulation, God's punishes mankind as a whole indiscriminately.

The guilty along with the not guilty.

As the events in Revelation progress, less and less people will have a chance at salvation. Just within the seal and trumpets, 3 times we are told a 1/3 of mankind will die. Granted, it may mean that the first 1/3 will all mankind, saved and unsaved alike. Then the second 1/3 will of those that remain. And likewise, the other 1/3 may be of those that are lucky enough to survive until that 1/3 are killed.

There is no reference in these 1/3rds, of who is and who isn't saved, which means, God will kill the saved and unsaved alike.

And even at that, with the "post-trib" view, the worst is yet to come.

Then, we come to what scripture says is the wrath of Satan. For a time, the two witnesses and the 144000 are the only ones, THE ONLY ONES, who will not have anything to fear. For a time, the two witness can't have anything done to them otherwise God will allow the two witness to either torture you with fire, or kill you. Ultimately, God allows them to be killed too.

Then both Christians and the unsaved, have to equally face what happens in Rev. 13-17. Nevertheless, there is still hope of finding salvation. Then we come to Revelation 19. Rapture, the second coming. And yet, there is still a chance of salvation. Not until Revelation 21:11 when the Great White Throne judgment happens. There is no "bema seat" judgment for believers, you will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the unsaved to be judged, not for your works mind you as I have been told previously. To be seen whether or not your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. If it is, great is your reward, if not, well there is no hope.

The logical conclusion to the "post-trib" viewpoint is as I have pointed out, God punishes indiscriminately the innocent with the guilty, the saved with the unsaved. It also makes the time of your salvation, if your even lucky to find it, of no consequence. Your no better now for being saved as you would be if you can find salvation during the great tribulation. Either way, your going to be punished.

This is the "fruit" of the "post-tribulation" viewpoint. Christians and non-Christians alike will endure the Great Tribulation period, and until the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, there is always a hope for salvation, small as it may be, there is always hope until the time of the Great White Throne Judgment.

I might as well go out and live anyway I want, because when the Great Tribulation starts, there's hope for salvation (cf. Rev. 7:14). Remember, there is no benefit from being saved now as opposed to later. Either way, "Christian" or non-Christian, your going to have to endure this tribulation period. :doh:

What are your alternatives?

Convert to Preterism and hope and pray that all prophesy has been fulfilled.
Convert to "mid-trib" which is only slightly better in that you'll only have to endure half of the great tribulation.
Accept Amillennialism and pray that every other view is wrong. That there is no literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, and everything written is purely "symbolic".
Convert to "pan-millennialism", accept that no matter what happens, pre-trib, post-trib, amill, preterism, it will all "pan out" in the end.

Since my "pre-trib" belief is darn near heresy, these are your only alternatives folks. Mid, Post, Amil, Preterist, or Pan. You decide.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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sdowney717

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Folks, here's the part about the "post-trib" view that, IMO, stinks to high heaven.

Lets assume that is the correct view. In the "post-trib" viewpoint, there is nothing, absolutely nothing to be gained by being saved in this time. (Present, at this very moment)

In the "post-trib" viewpoint, there is nothing to distinguish the saved from the unsaved as all will be punished, tormented, killed alike.

And if your not saved in this day and age, then have no fear, contrary to what Paul wrote (cf. 2 Thess. 2:9-12), there is still a chance at salvation during the great tribulation. Just hope that you become one of the martyred saints, that way you won't have endure what is left of the great tribulation.

In its logical conclusion, during the great tribulation, God's punishes mankind as a whole indiscriminately.

The guilty along with the not guilty.

As the events in Revelation progress, less and less people will have a chance at salvation. Just within the seal and trumpets, 3 times we are told a 1/3 of mankind will die. Granted, it may mean that the first 1/3 will all mankind, saved and unsaved alike. Then the second 1/3 will of those that remain. And likewise, the other 1/3 may be of those that are lucky enough to survive until that 1/3 are killed.

There is no reference in these 1/3rds, of who is and who isn't saved, which means, God will kill the saved and unsaved alike.

And even at that, with the "post-trib" view, the worst is yet to come.

Then, we come to what scripture says is the wrath of Satan. For a time, the two witnesses and the 144000 are the only ones, THE ONLY ONES, who will not have anything to fear. For a time, the two witness can't have anything done to them otherwise God will allow the two witness to either torture you with fire, or kill you. Ultimately, God allows them to be killed too.

Then both Christians and the unsaved, have to equally face what happens in Rev. 13-17. Nevertheless, there is still hope of finding salvation. Then we come to Revelation 19. Rapture, the second coming. And yet, there is still a chance of salvation. Not until Revelation 21:11 when the Great White Throne judgment happens. There is no "bema seat" judgment for believers, you will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the unsaved to be judged, not for your works mind you as I have been told previously. To be seen whether or not your name is written in the Lambs Book of Life. If it is, great is your reward, if not, well there is no hope.

The logical conclusion to the "post-trib" viewpoint is as I have pointed out, God punishes indiscriminately the innocent with the guilty, the saved with the unsaved. It also makes the time of your salvation, if your even lucky to find it, of no consequence. Your no better now for being saved as you would be if you can find salvation during the great tribulation. Either way, your going to be punished.

This is the "fruit" of the "post-tribulation" viewpoint. Christians and non-Christians alike will endure the Great Tribulation period, and until the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, there is always a hope for salvation, small as it may be, there is always hope until the time of the Great White Throne Judgment.

I might as well go out and live anyway I want, because when the Great Tribulation starts, there's hope for salvation (cf. Rev. 7:14). Remember, there is no benefit from being saved now as opposed to later. Either way, "Christian" or non-Christian, your going to have to endure this tribulation period. :doh:

What are your alternatives?

Convert to Preterism and hope and pray that all prophesy has been fulfilled.
Convert to "mid-trib" which is only slightly better in that you'll only have to endure half of the great tribulation.
Accept Amillennialism and pray that every other view is wrong. That there is no literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth, and everything written is purely "symbolic".
Convert to "pan-millennialism", accept that no matter what happens, pre-trib, post-trib, amill, preterism, it will all "pan out" in the end.

Since my "pre-trib" belief is darn near heresy, these are your only alternatives folks. Mid, Post, Amil, Preterist, or Pan. You decide.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Following your logic, God punishes believers with persecution also.

Wrong!

The very first verse in Matthew 24 tells us to whom Jesus was speaking to.

"and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple." -Mt. 24:1 (KJV)

I have heard it a number of times mainly from Catholics, but also lately by some of the Reformed faith that just as John 16:13 can't be applied to us today because Jesus was addressing the disciples specifically, the same principle applies to this passage.

I know how to play these games.

And since when is God's revelation restricted to only the Gospels?

I see Paul showing two different events in relation to end times.



Agreed. That is why I showed that the Preterist point of fulfillment in AD 70 is incorrect.



So, would you deny that there are some "elect" saved during that time of "great tribulation"? Would these not be considered the "elect"? Or would you deny Calvin's position on "election"?

Which my position on this is further strengthened by Rev. 7:14.



Which co-incidentally matches Rev. 19:11-21.



Down through history, even immediately after Christ's death and resurrection already "antichrists" had arisen. (cf. 1 Jn. 2:18)

So is it a surprise then?



Here again, you fail to look close to what scripture says.

In 1 Cor. 15:51-54 and 1 Thess. 4:13-17, there is a "resurrection".

In 2 Thess. 1:7-8 and Rev. 19:11-21 there is no resurrection until after the beast, false prophet, and the antichrist is defeated.

Now Matt. 24:24 does say:

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

But here again, this is nothing new as shown by 1 Jn. 2:18.

And even Mt. 24:24 does not agree with your interpretation.

"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

The Greek:

"ἐγερθήσονται γὰρ ψευδόχριστοι καὶ ψευδοπροφῆται, καὶ δώσουσιν σημεῖα μεγάλα καὶ τέρατα ὥστε πλανῆσαι, εἰ δυνατόν, καὶ τοὺς ἐκλεκτούς:" -Mt. 24:24 (GNT)

If, mind you, even if such a thing were possible, those "antichrists" would cause the "elect" to stray. But, its not possible!

"In phrases:
εἰ δυνατόν (ei 1487 dunaton) possible (if it be) [KJV]
εἰ (ei 1487) if."

Source

If is one might strong word. If a frog had wings...

Jesus turns right around and John records:

"And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers...My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" -Jn. 10:5, 27 (KJV)

Fact is, what is revealed to Matthew (and the other disciples) something else is revealed to Paul and which ever John wrote Revelation. So to say "X" says this, when "Y" says that, and then suppose "X" is the deciding factor is wrong. To say that Matt 24 is the argument to end all arguments refutes what is taught elsewhere in scripture.

And here again, you say Mt. 24:29 is the argument to end all arguments. I notice that Matthew 24 does not include (nor any of the other Gospel accounts) what Zechariah 14:4 says.

To be honest, Matthew 24 don't even include any hint of what Paul's reveals in 2 Thess. 1:7-8!

Also, to say that Matthew 24 is the argument to end all arguments puts the Gospel accounts in direct contradiction to what is revealed to both Paul and the John of Revelation.

What is revealed in Revelation is unique, so unique that it was withheld from the disciples. Only John (whichever John you decide on) was given this "special" revelation".

What you are trying to tell us is that lets suppose that it is possible that a Christian could do everything asked of him, even surpass what Peter and Paul could not do themselves. During this time (the Great Tribulation) God is going to allow the Saints to endure:

  1. Being conquered.
  2. Murder by others (War)
  3. Famine
  4. Death by what happens in the 4th seal. 1/3 of humanity
  5. Great events seen in the earth and heavens
  6. Then after the sealing of the 144000, followed by a half hour of silence
  7. More natural disasters
  8. a third of all grass and trees being destroyed
  9. another third of the waters being poisoned whereby another 1/3 of mankind will die
  10. Then to be tormented nigh and day by the creatures that come out of the bottomless pit
  11. Then fact the next thing to follow the "locusts" (except the 144000)
  12. Then another 1/3 of mankind is to die when the four angels are loosed (not to mention there is still no repentance at this time)
  13. Then, something so awful happens that John is not allowed to write about it
  14. Then we have the two witnesses, who have power to torture by fire and plagues and death, followed by the rise of the beast, and we haven't even reached to worst part yet
  15. Then comes the wrath of Satan!
I could go on and on.

You would have me to believe that I am going to have to endure/pay for my Christianity by hoping and praying that I am lucky enough to survive through all this and more, just because I am a Christian?!?

No sir! I do not, I will not accept it. 1 Thess. 1:10 forbids it.

Sorry

God Bless

Till all are one.
Does the Bible support a pre-tribulation or post-tribulation rapture? | Bible Question Archive | Amazing Facts
 
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DeaconDean

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Following your logic, God punishes believers with persecution also.

No sir, that is your opinion. That is the fruit of a "post-trib" rapture.

Who started this thread, and what is the name of it?

"The rapture occurs after the Great tribulation"

Post-trib rapture?

"The Post-tribulation belief which is that the Rapture will take place at the end of the tribulation, that the Church will be lifted to the Lord and return with him. They believe the Rapture and the Return of the Lord are one event: that the Church will be caught up to meet the Lord as he descends from heaven. They believe there is only one coming of the Lord - at the end of the tribulation."

Source

Which means, according to you, the saints, the elect, the saved, will endure those 7 years of the tribulation period. We (Christians) will suffer right along with the unsaved.

There is no distinction made in the scripture that distinguishes the saved from the unsaved that die when the 4th seal is broken or when the wornwood star falls or those killed by the angel.

Either way, the id trib view, or the post trib view brings us the point where Christians will endure the same as the unsaved. How many times have you personally said that the "rapture" happens after the Great Tribulation?

There is no other way to interpret that view than to say Christians and non-Christians alike will endure that time of great trouble.

No way. And that is the viewpoint you are advocating.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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sdowney717

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Wanna keep playing these games?

God Bless

Till all are one.
Games??
Your emotional argumentative attitude shows your not seeing clearly the truth, You said Christians wont suffer through any tribulations, but obviously believers do in Revelation 7.

You say,
"Which means, according to you, the saints, the elect, the saved, will endure those 7 years of the tribulation period. We (Christians) will suffer right along with the unsaved."

That time of the end is so bad with delusions and deceptions that Christ warns His elect that they remain faithful to what He says about this in Matthew 24.
Example

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25
See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Carcass here means in the greek, dead bodies of sinners consumed, so a destruction.

πτῶμα ptōma, pto'-mah; from the alternate of G4098; a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):—dead body, carcase, corpse.


Yet you believe they are the saved flying into the heavens?


So the deceiver, the mystery of iniquity works even now by going against the teaching of Christ in the emotional argumentation that believers will never see or suffer tribulations.

The great throng of people around the throne. Scripture makes a major point that these will now no more suffer thirst, hunger, intense sun, heat, all things that actually believers do suffer today also, but it is the intensity of that which they experience during the GREAT TRIBULATION. That means they are elect, believers, christians, totally refutes your erroneous emotional outbursting.
As Christ says in Matthew 24: 7-9

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.

Tribulation against the saints is not poured out on God's people, but the times are tough on the earth here, and the tribulation comes from the world government of the beast. You don't seem to be ale to tell the difference.

Revelation 7

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”
 
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Sea Horse

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Since we know there are no contradictions in bible . Assuming post tribulation.

So we know after rapture we get glorified bodies and don't marry and can't have sex Luke 20:34:-36 , and all of Jesus enemies are destroyed . So who is then having children in millenial kingdom ?
 
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sdowney717

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Since we know there are no contradictions in bible . Assuming post tribulation.

So we know after rapture we get glorified bodies and don't marry and can't have sex Luke 20:34:-36 , and all of Jesus enemies are destroyed . So who is then having children in millenial kingdom ?

Good point, of which I also have wondered regardless of pre, mid, post rapture. Frankly, the rapture timing is most clearly presented scripturally to be post tribulation, and the millennial kingdom reign and what actually happens is not as clearly defined.

1 Corinthians 15, Paul teaches each in his own order.
Christ is the first fruits, He was resurrected, never to perish. This is completed.

Afterwards... of some indeterminate time period, those who are His when He returns.
Then comes the END. Where all (earthly) rule and power and authority are destroyed.
The END come also signifies death itself destroyed. With His returning, all that do not know God and who do not obey the gospel are consumed by fire. So only believers and Holy angels and God remain, eternally to live forever together.

Here is also taught a post trib rapture, we are given rest from those who cause us tribulation , (Matthew 24:9-10) with His returning. The idea is there are His saints alive and remaining on earth till He comes.
To give to YOU rest with US. The you here are future believers alive and remaining when He comes, the US here are them of Paul's generation. You might even say Paul's generation has entered into His rest, and those alive at the second advent, will be given rest with them when He returns.

2 Thessalonians 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

7
and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”But when He says “all things are put under Him,it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
 
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P92

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We see from the gospel accounts, especially in the parable of the sower, where of the four "types" shown, three were never saved to begin with.

Furthermore, we have the statement from John:

"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." -1 Jn. 2:19 (KJV)

There are those even within the church, that give the appearance of being saved, but in reality, are not.

Secondly, nobody, saved or not, can escape the "pollutions of this world."

Scriptures tell us that the scripture (Gospel) is to be preached to every man, in every land. So, in one form or another, everybody will possess some knowledge of the truth and righteousness.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Dean,

Can you answer the questions I asked you? The above contains mere assertions which hardly rise to the level of an argument, and which I had already anticipated in my prior post on 2 Peter 2:20-21.

Re your claim that "nobody, saved or not, can escape the "pollutions of this world". First it contradicts entirely what Peter says and second,

1 John 2:14 says
I have written to you, young men,
Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
And you have overcome the wicked one.

You know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
 
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P92

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Here is also taught a post trib rapture, we are given rest from those who cause us tribulation , (Matthew 24:9-10) with His returning. The idea is there are His saints alive and remaining on earth till He comes.
To give to YOU rest with US. The you here are future believers alive and remaining when He comes, the US here are them of Paul's generation. You might even say Paul's generation has entered into His rest, and those alive at the second advent, will be given rest with them when He returns.

Mr Downey,

Does the post-trib view believe that Christ returns after the bowl/vials judgments?
 
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sdowney717

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Mr Downey,

Does the post-trib view believe that Christ returns after the bowl/vials judgments?
Well, If Christ return marks the end of the tribulation, It must be true.
The bowl, vial judgements, God does not pour out on His people.
I posted the verses, and all can read, these bowls-plagues fall on the people of the kingdom of the beast, Satan's people, not God's people are experiencing all of this tribulation of the bowl judgements, directed towards them, the kingdom of the beast.

AND v15 should be of great interest as Christ has not yet returned, BUT, He emphasizes again He is coming as a thief in the night, so still NO RAPTURE YET has occurred, and this is during the bowl judgments. Is everyone in agreement?

Revelation 15:1
[ Prelude to the Bowl Judgments ] Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.”

Revelation 16:2
[ First Bowl: Loathsome Sores ] So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Revelation 16:3
[ Second Bowl: The Sea Turns to Blood ] Then the second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living creature in the sea died.

Revelation 16:4
[ Third Bowl: The Waters Turn to Blood ] Then the third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:

“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.

For it is their just due.”

Revelation 16:8
[ Fourth Bowl: Men Are Scorched ] Then the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and power was given to him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.

Revelation 16:10
[ Fifth Bowl: Darkness and Pain ] Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.

Revelation 16:12
[ Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up ] Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Revelation 16:17
[ Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken ] Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.
 
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sdowney717

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Another passage of interest here is the fifth trumpet.
Note verse 4, they were commanded to not harm those men who have the seal of God on their foreheads. So we can be certain then that God's people are still on their earth at this time. And they have survived (some of them), so God has been protecting those from physical death, who have come through the seven seals, and the four
trumpets, who still remain alive, during the great tribulation time, and the Lord has not returned yet to rapture them.

And we have already gone through the seven seals prior to this 5th trumpet.

Now simply imagine yourself as one of God's people witness to these events by your own eyes in the flesh, what an amazing time of the end.

Imagine also, the anger of the men who do experience these tortures of the great tribulation while they notice the people of God, are not suffering, they will be very angry against the christians, and seek to cause them to suffer..


Revelation 9New King James Version (NKJV)

Fifth Trumpet: The Locusts from the Bottomless Pit
1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 
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sdowney717

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And after the seven seals, the three woes, the seven trumpets, we have this here.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So obviously the people of God are still here on the earth, no rapture yet, and the antichrist is about to be revealed in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13New King James Version (NKJV)
The Beast from the Sea
1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

God reminds His people to be patient, have faith and continue to wait for the return of the Lord. Many likely of God's people are hereby killed by the beast.
Is this God's tribulation wrath poured out in them?

No!, it is the beast who makes war against the saints, not God.
 
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sdowney717

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Revelation 14, again God reminds the saints to keep the faith and wait patiently and expectantly for Jesus from heaven, as Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians, He has not yet returned.
Now they have been dying by the war against them perpetrated by the beast, but not by God's wrath have they been killed. The beast's world system will kill them wherever and whenever he can find them. But he won't be finding and killing all believers, some certainly survive to the bowl judgments, note what Christ says to them in Revelation 16:15 at the pouring out of the sixth bowl, with just one bowl left to go, which ends the great tribulation wrath of God.
Revelation 15New King James Version (NKJV)
Prelude to the Bowl Judgments
1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.


Revelation 14
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed arethe dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
 
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