The rapture occurs after the great tribulation

[DeaconDean]

Doesn't work...

Matt 24:28 happens before the coming of the Son of Man whereas Rev 19:17-18 situates the supper of the great God after the coming, which makes sense because Christ has to defeat the bad guys before the fowls of the heaven be they literal or not can start their buffet.

Also, "fowls" is orneon whereas eagles is "aetos".

It matches just fine.

John Gill comments:

"For wheresoever the carcass is
Not Christ, as he is held forth in the Gospel, crucified and slain, through whose death is the savour of life, and by whom salvation is, and to whom sensible sinners flock, encouraged by the ministry of the word; and much less Christ considered as risen, exalted, and coming in great glory to judgment, to whom the word "carcass" will by no means agree, and but very poorly under the former consideration: but the people of the Jews are designed by it, in their fallen, deplorable, miserable, and lifeless state, who were like to the body of a man, or any other creature, struck dead with lightning from heaven; being destroyed by the breath of the mouth, and brightness of the coming of the son of man, like lightning, just as antichrist will be at the last day:

there will the eagles be gathered together:
not particular believers here, or all the saints at the day of judgment; though these may be, as they are, compared to eagles for many things; as their swiftness in flying to Christ, their sagacity and the sharpness of their spiritual sight, soaring on high, and renewing their spiritual strength and youth: but here the Roman armies are intended, whose ensigns were eagles; and the eagle still is, to this day, the ensign of the Roman empire: formerly other creatures, with the eagle, were used for ensigns; but C. Marius, in his second consulship, banished them, and appropriated the eagle only to the legions: nor was it a single eagle that was carried before the army, but every legion had an eagle went before it, made of gold or silver, and carried upon the top of a spear: and the sense of this passage is this, that wherever the Jews were, whether at Jerusalem, where the body and carcass of them was, in a most forlorn and desperate condition; or in any other parts of the country, the Roman eagles, or legions, would find them out, and make an utter destruction of them. The Persic version, contrary to others, and to all copies, renders it "vultures". Though this creature is of the same nature with the eagle, with respect to feeding on carcasses: hence the proverb, ``cujus vulturis hoe erit cadaver?'' "what vulture shall have this carcass?" It has a very sharp sight, and quick smell, and will, by both, discern carcasses at almost incredible distance: it will diligently watch a man that is near death; and will follow armies going to battle, as historians relate: and it is the eagle which is of the vulture kind, as Aristotle observes, that takes up dead bodies, and carries them to its nest. And Pliny says, it is that sort of eagles only which does so; and some have affirmed that eagles will by no means touch dead carcasses: but this is contrary not only to this passage of Scripture, but to others; particularly to ( Job 39:30 ) "her young ones also suck up blood, and where the slain are, there is she": an expression much the same with this in the text, and to which it seems to refer; see also ( Proverbs 30:17 ) . Though Chrysostom"

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

See the bolded above in 2 Cor 5:10

Believers will be judged for works of the flesh, see 1 Cor 6:9-10 and Gal 5:19.

1 Cor. 3:13-15 as presented above is a pretext, because it is proof-text presented without its context.

The context there is speaking of those build, pastors/evangelists/church planters (Apollos, Cephas, Paul for example) not of the every day believer. What it means is that if their work fails, and the church (people) are dross, the worker (pastor/planter) won't be held responsible for it.

Look back again, their works are judged, whether good or bad, but none lose their salvation.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -1 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)

The Bema seat judgment, is a trial of what our works are since the point of salvation, and whether or not we will receive a reward.

The Great White Throne judgment is to see whether or not ones name is in the Lambs book of Life. Not works!

The day I knelt and prayed, repented, confessed and believed, my name was written into the Lambs book of Life!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

And that was one of my points. You believe it is the "last trump" ... which is somehow symbolic for something unique, apart from a series of trumpets and therefore not #7. Because if you thought it was, then your whole pre-trib view would be wrong. It would mean that we would have to suffer the first six in the series at least and btw, most of your ilk, put things in a chronological order and so you'll have seven seals before the trumpets, which does not work that way.

What does it say in Psalms?

"God is gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet." -Psa. 47:5 (KJV)

If He goes up with the sound of a trumpet, unless scripture lies, He will return to the sound of one.

Which agrees fully with what Paul wrote.

And...the 7 trumpets are sounding around the time of the middle of the tribulation period.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

Do you agree that the church, and therefore Christians are spoken of in the first 3 chapters of the book of Revelation?

I do note that the "church" (i.e.: Christians) are not spoken of after chapter 4.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

Not "linear" huh.

I suppose the vials could be opened first, then the seals, then the trumpets?!?

I guess Revelation is a book of confusion then.

What I do know is that the 7 seals are the very first thing opened. And those individuals who try to hide among to rocks testify that what is happening is the "wrath of the Lamb(God)".

That is unless you deny that the Lamb, i.e.: Jesus is not God also.

And there is no way you can wiggle around that.

Anything else makes the scriptures lie, it makes Paul lie when he said that we (Christians) are delivered from the wrath to come"! (cf. 1 Thess. 1:10)

God Bless

Till all are one.

That passage also says His 'DAY' has come.
For you the Day of the Lord must last for years.
Everything about that chapter your basing your doctrine on points away from your POV, and your making that scripture fit your ideas. You are quite mistaken.

 

[DeaconDean]

That passage also says His 'DAY' has come.
For you the Day of the Lord must last for years.
Everything about that chapter your basing your doctrine on points away from your POV, and your making that scripture fit your ideas. You are quite mistaken.

Yea...right

Rev. 6:16-17 says:

"and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come"

1 Thess. 1:10 says:

"which delivered us from the wrath to come"

Bottom line, God's wrath is being metted out. And according to 1 Thess. 1:10, we will not be here for it.

Like I said, unless you deny that the "Lamb" is not God.

So much for a "post-trib".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

"Van Ryn expresses the common pretribulational position:

The opening of the seals ushers in the terrible judgments to fall upon this earth after the Church has been caught up to glory, as we saw in chap. 4:1.141

The events here revealed also depend for their interpretation on the question of whether a translation of the church has already taken place. Though the book of Revelation itself does not determine this important question with finality, it is significant that the church so prominent in chapters 2 and 3 is not mentioned again until 22:16 except as the wife of the Lamb at the close of the tribulation. Nowhere in scenes of earth which describe the end time (chaps. 6-19) is the church pictured as involved in the earthly struggle. Further, the hope of the rapture mentioned to the church of Thyatira and the church at Philadelphia does not appear in the detailed prophetic program which unfolds in the book of Revelation. This lends credence to the conclusion that the rapture of the church has occurred before the events pictured beginning with chapter 4.

Expositors of the book of Revelation usually agree that there is some relation between the events at the end of the age and Daniel’s seventieth week, to be understood as the last seven years of Israel’s program prophesied in Daniel 9:27. Many have assumed that the events of earth in chapters 6 through 19 coincide with the seven years of Israel’s program culminating in the second coming of Christ. Expositors of this point of view have usually taken for granted that the book gives a panoramic view of the entire seven years even though there is no explicit proof of this in the book itself. There is some evidence, however, that the events pictured in the seals, trumpets, and vials are instead a concentrated prophecy of the latter half of this week, i.e., a period of three and one-half years, designated as a time of wrath and the great tribulation, and constituting the introduction to the second coming of Christ. Evidence for this is presented as the exposition unfolds.

There are a number of reasons for preferring to take this passage in its literal meaning. While this is not the final breakup of the world as described later in Revelation, when a further period of terrible judgments will be poured on the world, it does seem to indicate that beginning with the sixth seal God is undertaking a direct intervention into human affairs. The judgments of war, famine, and death, and the martyrdom of the saints have largely originated in human decision and in the evil heart of man. The judgment described here, however, originates in God as a divine punishment inflicted upon a blasphemous world.

In view of the catastrophic and climactic character of the period, there is no good reason why there should not be precisely the elements mentioned here, namely, disturbances in the heavens and earthquakes on the earth. This is borne out by the effect upon the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the chief captains, the mighty men, bondmen, and freemen mentioned in verse 15, who hide themselves in dens and in the rocks of the mountains. The events are of such character that all are impressed with the fact that the day of the wrath of the Lord has come and their judgment is now about to take place. In support of this, E. W. Bullinger writes, “It is impossible for us to take this as symbolical; or as other than what it literally says. The difficulties of the symbolical interpretation are insuperable, while no difficulties whatever attend the literal interpretation.”163

It is questionable whether changes in government and in human affairs would have brought such a striking transformation in the hearts of these wicked people. As is often the case with desperate men, instead of availing themselves of the grace of God, they attempt to hide from the wrath of the Lamb by seeking escape in death. However their hope is futile, for death is not an escape but merely a change from one state to another. Those who escape through death from the immediate judgment of God are destined for eternal judgment at the judgment of the great white throne. The earth today so indifferent to the claims of God, so bent upon pleasure, luxury, and fame, will face in that day its terrible need.

All levels of society are here. Some are great men, some are slaves. In relation to judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ, however, everyone is exactly in the same predicament. Success in the world does not help; no one escapes.

The elements of divine judgment pictured here are common in the prophecies pertaining to the end of the age. Christ Himself predicted earthquakes (Matt. 24:7). Both earthquakes and the sun becoming black are intimated by Joel (Joel 2:2, 10, 30-31). The heavens departing as a scroll are mentioned in Isaiah 34:4 (cf. also Isa. 13:6-13). The resulting impression upon the unbelieving world is that the time of the judgment of God has come. They themselves say to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” It is apparent that creatures of earth have had some foreboding that their blasphemous unbelief and worship of the beast pictured in Revelation 13 are in defiance of the true God. They therefore seek refuge from the One sitting on the throne and apparently realize that the day of divine wrath has come.

In describing the period of judgment as a day of wrath, reference is not to a twenty-four-hour day but to a time period longer or shorter. The day of wrath in one sense is the whole period of the great tribulation, when God will deal in direct judgment with the world, climaxing with the return of Christ in power and glory and divine judgment upon all who oppose His coming. E. W. Bullinger describes the first six seals as

a summary of the judgments distributed over the whole book; a brief summary of what will occur in “the day of the Lord,” up to the time of His actual Apocalypse or Unveiling in chap, xix.164

The day of wrath is at the beginning of the day of the Lord, that extended period when God is going to deal directly in governing the entire world. It is significant that early in the book of Revelation the day of wrath is declared as having already come. It is another evidence that the great tribulation is already under way.

141 August Van Ryn, Notes on the Book of Revelation, p. 87.

163 The Apocalypse, p. 274.

164 Ibid., p. 277."

Source

It would appear that you are incorrect.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

View attachment 206357



Rev. 6:16-17 says:

"and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come"

1 Thess. 1:10 says:

"which delivered us from the wrath to come"

Bottom line, God's wrath is being metted out. And according to 1 Thess. 1:10, we will not be here for it.

Like I said, unless you deny that the "Lamb" is not God.

So much for a "post-trib".

God Bless

Till all are one.

You deny that Revelation is not totally linear in time, but you also must claim it is them mostly symbolic.
Hah!, so where is the meaning then! You can simply make it go poof, and it has become just gobbledygook.

When you point to that chapter saying the sky is gone, the land is gone, heaven is open to being viewed from earth with Christ visible on the throne, and people still refuse to repent after experiencing all that. I don't think you can recognize the absurd inconsistency in your response to me, claiming I have the log in my eye! Denying the Lord Jesus!

This is most obviously telling us about the LAST Day, when He returns. You refuse to see that as it would interfere with your POV. You probably claim Revelation is 100% linear time, but then you MUST deny the words as anything other than purely symbolic instead of really happening in the future as recorded, or your a crazy man. You can then just make it say and mean whatever you wish it to say, not what it actually says. Then you twist my words saying this is God's wrath poured out on believers, when I said no such thing. As I said in my previous post, this was a vision of the END, the LAST DAY, when Christ returns. Seems if anyone disagrees with your POV, they become a Christ denier.

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

From your position, we still got at least 3.5 years or more to go at this point in Rev 6! Don't you see how absurd your doctrine is on this? But you have had many years of formulating your opinion, well tough, too bad!

 

[DeaconDean]

For you the Day of the Lord must last for years.

Again, you are a funny person.

When Paul wrote:

"now is the day of salvation" (cf. 2 Cor. 6:2 (KJV))

Are we to believe as you do that that "day" was a literal 24 hour day?

Unless I'm mistaken, that "day" has lasted for almost 2000 years.

And it also brings up the argument about the creation "days". It is both possible that a literal 24 hour "day" as well as a 1000 year day could be used in the creation days.

And, we also know of at least one (1) day, that was longer than 24 hours.

Is it impossible to believe that "great day of his wrath" could last longer than 24 hours/ That it could last 3.5 years or more?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

You deny that Revelation is not totally linear in time, but you also must claim it is them mostly symbolic.
Hah!, so where is the meaning then! You can simply make it go poof, and it has become just gobbledygook.

On the contrary, I have submitted enough evidence to refute your claim.

By saying what I did, the seals then the trumpets sounding, shows I accept a literal rendering.

Furthermore, you evidently did not read the article I supplied.

When you point to that chapter saying the sky is gone, the land is gone, heaven is open to being viewed from earth with Christ visible on the throne, and people still refuse to repent after experiencing all that. I don't think you can recognize the absurd inconsistency in your response to me, claiming I have the log in my eye! Denying the Lord Jesus!

Tell me something, when Stephen was stoned, did anyone else see his vision?

This is most obviously telling us about the LAST Day, when He returns. You refuse to see that as it would interfere with your POV. You probably claim Revelation is 100% linear time, but then you MUST deny the words as anything other than purely symbolic instead of really happening in the future as recorded, or your a crazy man. You can then just make it say and mean whatever you wish it to say, not what it actually says. Then you twist my words saying this is God's wrath poured out on believers, when I said no such thing. As I said in my previous post, this was a vision of the END, the LAST DAY, when Christ returns. Seems if anyone disagrees with your POV, they become a Christ denier.

Not at all, I showed you that when the seals are opened, its the Lord's wrath, and accordfing to scripture, we wont be here.

Yet you deny that, so who here is denying things?

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

From your position, we still got at least 3.5 years or more to go at this point in Rev 6! Don't you see how absurd your doctrine is on this? But you have had many years of formulating your opinion, well tough, too bad!

No sir, I say that that marks the beginning of the first 3.5 years.

Besides, Mt. 24:29, occurs after the tribulation (Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, whereas, Rev. 6:12-17 occur during (And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?)

And no matter how much you personally want to deny it, Rev. 6:17 and 1 Thess. 1:10 defeat your position.

Which also means your position is unmanageable.

I have said it many times:

The False RAPTURE theory

Revelation is nothing more than God's wrath poured out on an unrepentant, unsaved world.

And Rev. 6:17 proves me true!

And no matter how much you want me to be wrong, scripture is with me.

Unless you keep denying it, in which case, it is you who refuse to believe scripture.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I have held to a pre-trib "rapture". Always have, always will unless proven wrong.

In the thread "The False Rapture Theory", I have shown that as far back as the 2nd century, some of the ECF's held to the "immanent" return theory as well as a "pre-trib" rapture.

So when people make the accusation that this is a realitively new thing attributing it to the likes of J,N. Darby, and C.I. Scofield, they are wrong. (The dispensational system of theology, if we are honest, is actually a Nineteenth Century phenomenon. Now I don’t want to get into an argument about these things. I know many good dispensationalists like to trace elements of dispensational teaching and belief way back into the history of the church. But as a historical theologian, and that is what I am by profession, I can pretty confidentially tell you that the system of dispensational theology is a Nineteenth Century phenomenon in the history of the church. It is particularly associated with John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren movement in Britain in the Nineteenth Century, and in America, with the name C.I. Scoffield; Cyrus Ingersoll Scoffield.-Ligon Duncan, Dispensationalism, A Reformed Evaluation)

"It should be noted that none of the Fathers held the futurist gap theory, the theory that the book of Revelation overleaps nearly eighteen centuries of Christian history, plunging at once into the distant future, and devoting itself entirely to predicting the events of the last few years of this dispensation." -Henry Grattam Guinness (Romanism and the Reformation, Lecture V, p.123)

That the very earliest non-canonical Christian writings contain the spirit of imminency is a very important fact. Why so? It is because, when immininecy is preached, it indicates that the author was expecting the return of the Lord from heaven, and this perhaps in his very lifetime--perhaps even in mere days to come.

Now, if the earliest Christians had held an amillennial view, and had believed the Lord's return would be at the close of the Kingdom and not in order to establish and begin the Kingdom, they would not be expecting a soon coming of the Lord. If the Messianic Kingdom had just been newly established a few years prior, then this new Kingdom was to be in existence for a very long time and had certain goals to accomplish before it would come to a close. So, it's basically impossible that the early Church were amillennialists, else they would'nt have been looking for the return of the Lord so soon.
As for the Historicist outlook pertaining to the Great Tribulation, imminency is incompatible with that perspective because the author would be expecting an entire history to unfold prior to the coming of the Lord and Kingdom; a history including a great apostasy and rise of a false Christianity, the establishing of a papacy, and after that, a long history of Papal succession to bring about the "ten horn" phenomenon among other fulfillments of prophecy.
This is why Guiness' analysis is in error. He creates a false dilemma by suggesting Futurism is unavoidably linked with a concept of "not until after a very long time...", but Futurism never teaches that. Honest people admit that Futurism is a readily apparent feature in the ancient Christian writings. It is actually Historicism which demands long periods of time, and even suggests the relevant prophecies indicate such. So Historicism is contrary to the ancient Faith not only in imminency, but also in their understanding of the personal Antichrist and Great Tribulation to take up a very brief period respectively.
As for the Preterist outlook, there is not one shred of evidence the ancient Church spoke of the Lord's coming as reference to the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 A.D., and their spirit of imminency was carried straight on through into the second century A.D. and beyond. Preterists think the spirit of imminency in ECF writings is correct, but that they didn't notice the fulfillments. Imagine that! The body of believers in Christ, at the time of alleged fulfillments, didn't happen to notice the Great Tribulation, return of the Lord, destruction of the Roman Empire and establishing of the long awaited Kingdom of God to fulfill all Scriptural Covenant and prophecy! The real reason they "didn't notice" the fulfillments of these events, of course, is because those events were not fulfilled at 70 A.D.
Therefore, faith in the imminent coming of the Lord automatically places these men into the Futurist and Premillennial camp. What follows are citations containing statements of imminency. As you get in to Irenaeus and Hippolytus, you see some rather descriptive statements about the collection of events which will make up this brief future period, and the resemblance to the current dispensational outlook is startling.


The Didache


"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increases, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but those who endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth: first, the sign of an outspreading in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet. And third, the resurrection of the dead -- yet not of all, but as it is said: 'The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him.' Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." - Didache, ch.16 (here)

Clement of Rome

"The all-merciful and beneficent Father has bowels [of compassion] towards those that fear Him, and kindly and lovingly bestows His favours upon those who come to Him with a simple mind. Wherefore let us not be double-minded; neither let our soul be lifted up on account of His exceedingly great and glorious gifts. Far from us be that which is written, 'Wretched are they who are of a double mind, and of a doubting heart; who say, These things we have heard even in the times of our fathers; but, behold, we have grown old, and none of them has happened unto us.' Ye foolish ones! compare yourselves to a tree: take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next it puts forth leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened fruit. Ye perceive how in a little time the fruit of a tree comes to maturity. Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;' and, 'The Lord shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.'" - Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, ch.23 (here)


"How blessed and wonderful, beloved, are the gifts of God! Life in immortality, splendour in righteousness, truth in perfect confidence, faith in assurance, self-control in holiness! And all these fall under the cognizance of our understandings [now]; what then shall those things be which are prepared for such as wait for Him? The Creator and Father of all worlds, the Most Holy, alone knows their amount and their beauty. Let us therefore earnestly strive to be found in the number of those that wait for Him, in order that we may share in His promised gifts." - Clement of Rome, Epistle to the Corinthians, ch.35 (here)

Ignatius


"Fare ye well to the end, in the patience of Jesus Christ. Amen." - Ignatius, Epistle to the Romans (short version), ch.10 (here)


"Give thyself to prayer without ceasing. Implore additional understanding to what thou already hast. Be watchful, possessing a sleepless spirit. Speak to every man separately, as God enables thee. Bear the infirmities of all, as being a perfect athlete [in the Christian life]: where the labour is great, the gain is all the more." - Ignatius, Epistle to Polycarp (short version), ch.1 (here)

Barnabas


"It therefore behoves us, who inquire much concerning events at hand, to search diligently into those things which are able to save us. Let us then utterly flee from all the works of iniquity, lest these should take hold of us; and let us hate the error of the present time, that we may set our love on the world to come: let us not give loose reins to our soul, that it should have power to run with sinners and the wicked, lest we become like them. The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, 'For for this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance.' And the prophet also speaks thus: 'Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings.' In like manner Daniel says concerning the same, 'And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and more savage than all the beasts of the earth, and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the great horns.' Ye ought therefore to understand." - Epistle of Barnabas, ch.4 (here)

Justin Martyr


"In order, therefore, that the matter inquired into may be plainer to you, I will mention to you other words also spoken by the blessed David, from which you will perceive that the Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit of prophecy; and that the Lord, the Father of all, has brought Him again from the earth, setting Him at His own right hand, until He makes His enemies His footstool; which indeed happens from the time that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, after He rose again from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation; and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High. But you, being ignorant of how long he will have dominion, hold another opinion. For you interpret the 'time' as being a hundred years. But if this is so, the man of sin must, at the shortest, reign three hundred and fifty years, in order that we may compute that which is said by the holy Daniel— 'and times'—to be two times only. All this I have said to you in digression, in order that you at length may be persuaded of what has been declared against you by God, that you are foolish sons; and of this, 'Therefore, behold, I will proceed to take away this people, and shall take them away; and I will strip the wise of their wisdom, and will hide the understanding of their prudent men;' and may cease to deceive yourselves and those who hear you, and may learn of us, who have been taught wisdom by the grace of Christ." - Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch.32 (here)

Irenaeus


"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign. But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit. For if it had been declared by Him, he (Antichrist) might perhaps continue for a long period. But now as 'he was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss, and goes into perdition,' as one who has no existence; so neither has his name been declared, for the name of that which does not exist is not proclaimed. But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that 'many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.'" - Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 4, ch.30 (here)

Hippolytus


"These things, then, I have set shortly before thee, O Theophilus, drawing them from Scripture itself, in order that, maintaining in faith what is written, and anticipating the things that are to be, thou mayest keep thyself void of offence both toward God and toward men, 'looking for that blessed hope and appearing of our God and Saviour,' when, having raised the saints among us, He will rejoice with them, glorifying the Father. To Him be the glory unto the endless ages of the ages. Amen." - Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, sec.67 (here)

Source

What is also funny is this:

Revelation is not entirely linear time.

Then, I am accused of:

You deny that Revelation is not totally linear in time

One of the definitions given of what dispensationalism is, is:

"Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal. There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today."

Source

So to say I deny a "linear" view is funny.

And why is it that anybody, and I do mean anybody who holds to dispenationalism theology, or a pre-trib "rapture" are looked at and treated as if we are heretics?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Pre- or Post-Trib Rapture

"First Published in October 2003

The Rapture of the church involves all believers being caught up to heaven—those just resurrected together with those alive at the time (1 Thes:4:13-18 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(See All...).

If it occurs at the beginning of the tribulation period, then clearly Christ’s Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon is a separate event. According to Zechariah:14:3-5 [3] Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. [4] And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. [5] And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

(See All...), “all the saints” must accompany Christ back to earth. But if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, it must be simultaneous with the Second Coming, making them one event. Which is it: two events separated by seven years, or one event with two diverse purposes?

This question, although it has nothing to do with the gospel of salvation, divides much of the evangelical church. Happily, it can be settled rather easily. The descriptions in Scripture of the Rapture and Second Coming respectively are so different in so many details that they could not possibly be describing the same occurrence. We can’t cover all of these distinctions, but here are a few:

1) At the Rapture Christ does not return to earth but catches believers up to meet Him above the earth, taking them directly to heaven: “I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (Jn:14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
See All...);

“caught up...to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thes:4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
See All...)

In contrast, at the Second Coming Christ returns to this earth to rule Israel and the world from David’s throne in Jerusalem: “His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem” (Zec:14:4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
See All...);

“the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end” (Lk 1:32-33); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him....The armies which were in heaven followed him....Out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron” (Rv 19:11-15).

2) At the Rapture there is a resurrection of all believers who have died up to that time: “The dead shall be raised incorruptible” (1 Cor:15:52-53 [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
See All...);

“the dead in Christ shall rise first....” (1 Thes:4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
See All...)

In contrast, at the Second Coming there is no resurrection until Antichrist is defeated, he and the false prophet have been “cast alive into a lake of fire” (Rv 19:20), and Satan has been bound in the “bottomless pit [for] a thousand years” (20:1-3)—none of which is even remotely related to the rapture of believers to heaven. Then, to “the first resurrection” that occurred at the Rapture are added a unique group: “Them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” (4-5).

3) At the Rapture, the bodies of living believers (like those who are resurrected) will be changed to become immortal: “We shall not all sleep [i.e., die], but we shall all be changed...the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [who are living] shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality” (1 Cor:15:51-53 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
See All...);

“We which are alive...shall be caught up together with them [the resurrected saints]...to meet the Lord in the air [clearly requiring immortal bodies].” (1 Thes:4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
See All...)

In contrast, at the Second Coming all of the saints return with Christ from heaven and will therefore already have been changed into immortality: “The LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee” (Zec:14:5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

See All...); “I saw heaven opened [and one] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood...and the armies which were in heaven followed him [to] smite the nations” (Rv 19:11-15).

4) The Rapture occurs during relative peace and prosperity when the world does not expect judgment from God: “And as it was in the days of Noah [the last thing they expected was God’s judgment]...they did eat, they drank...married wives...were given in marriage [and as in] the days of Lot...they bought, they sold...planted...builded....Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” (Lk 17:26-30)

Again in complete contrast, the Second Coming occurs in the midst of the worst war the world has ever seen and following the greatest devastation this planet has ever suffered or ever will: “Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world...nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved” (Mt 24:21-22); “Behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed...power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger....There was a great earthquake...every mountain and island were moved out of their places...[men] hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks...for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” (Rv 6:8-17); “And the four angels were loosed...to slay the third part of men” (9:15); “and the...sea...became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And...the rivers and fountains of waters...became blood...the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and...men were scorched with great heat...and...there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth....And every island fled away and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail [of large stones]...every stone about the weight of a talent” (16:3-21); “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True....And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen....And I saw the beast [Antichrist], and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat upon the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and...the false prophet [and they] were cast alive into a lake of fire...” (19:11-21).

5) The Rapture occurs when conditions in the world seem to indicate that all is well—when very few expect Christ to return, and He catches even the church by surprise: “Of that day and hour knoweth no man...in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” (Mt 24:36, 44)

In contrast, when the Second Coming occurs, not even Antichrist is caught by surprise—the many visible signs alert everyone that Christ is right at the door: “When ye shall see all these things, know that it [Christ’s coming] is near, even at the doors” (Mt 24:33); “The beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse” (Rv 19:19).

6) The Rapture occurs when the church is sleeping, with little expectation of the Lord’s return: “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept” (Mt 25:5); “Watch ye therefore...lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.” (Mk 13:35-36)

In contrast, the Second Coming occurs at the end of the Tribulation in the midst of worldwide devastation and hopeless distress; the Antichrist and his armies are attacking Israel, much of Jerusalem is already captured (Zec:14:1-2 [1] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. [2] For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
See All...),

and Israel is on the verge of annihilation. It is inconceivable that the church, if it were still here, would be slumbering in complacency and under the delusion that “surely Christ wouldn’t come now”!

7) Since the Rapture instantly takes us, without dying, out of this world of sin, pain, and sorrow to be forever with Christ and like Him, never more to grieve Him, it is called the “blessed hope”: “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Ti 2:13); “every man that hath this hope.” (1 Jn:3:3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
See All...)

In contrast, the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly be called a “blessed hope,” inasmuch as very few Christians (if the church were still here) would survive to enjoy it. Having refused to receive the 666 mark of the beast “in their right hand, or in their forehead” and therefore being unable to “buy or sell,” and refusing to “worship the image of the beast [they would] be killed” (Rv 13:15-17). It makes no sense to suggest that if you can secretly eat out of enough garbage pails to avoid starvation and still keep one step ahead of Antichrist’s world police death squads, “Blessed hope! You’ll be raptured at Armageddon!”

8) As for the Rapture, unquestionably, the early church was taught to expect it at any moment and to eagerly watch, wait, and look for Christ’s return, when He will catch all believers up into His Father’s house to be with Him eternally: “Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord...” (Lk 12:35-36); “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body” (Phil:3:20-21 [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
See All...);

“Ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven...even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thes:1:9-10 [9] For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; [10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
See All...); “looking for that blessed hope” (Ti 2:13); “unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Heb:9:28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
See All...).

One does not watch, wait, and look each day for something that cannot happen until Antichrist’s advent or the end of a seven-year tribulation. Thus, there must be a coming of Christ that could happen at any moment.

In contrast, the Second Coming, by very definition as described in Scripture, cannot be expected momentarily. Therefore, none of the scriptures just quoted concerning watching and waiting and looking for the Lord could refer to the Second Coming or to a post-trib rapture of the church. These scriptures could therefore refer only to a pre-trib rapture.

9) The pre-trib Rapture has a powerful, purifying effect upon those who have this hope in Him. The fact that it is to be expected at any moment can only mean that it must come before Antichrist is revealed and before the Tribulation. If Christ could come at any moment, there is no time to waste, no time to delay witnessing, no time to indulge in sin with the idea of repenting and changing one’s ways later: “And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (1 Jn:2:28And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
See All...);

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” (3:3)

In contrast, anticipation of the Second Coming (or a post-trib rapture at that time) could hardly have a purifying effect, because it can’t take place for at least seven years—plenty of time to delay witnessing, getting right with the Lord, and holy living until later. In fact, the Lord said that believing He couldn’t come at any moment would have the opposite effect from purifying believers: “If that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants...and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant will come at an hour when he is not aware” (Mt 24:48-50; Lk 12:45-46).

10) The Rapture is not only an event that we are to expect momentarily and to eagerly anticipate, but we are to ask our Lord to come immediately. Here is how the Bible ends: “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come....Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.” (Rv 22:17,20)

In contrast, the Second Coming is not of such a nature and timing that we could ask Christ to effect it right now. Since Christ obviously cannot return to the earth in judgment to rescue Israel, stop the destruction at Armageddon, and destroy the Antichrist along with his kingdom and his armies until the end of the Tribulation, for us to cry out to Christ, “Come, Lord Jesus!” would be like demanding payment on a debt that isn’t due for seven years. Yet, “the Spirit and the bride” do cry out, “Come, Lord Jesus.” We can only conclude that there must be a coming of Christ that could occur at any moment. It cannot be the Second Coming or a post-trib rapture. It can only be a pre-trib rapture.

11) There are at least two events that occur in heaven for which the church must be present and that therefore cannot take place until the Rapture occurs: the judgment seat of Christ, and the marriage of the Lamb to His bride: “for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ” (Rom:14:10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
See All...);

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad” (2 Cor:5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
See All...);

“The marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted [to] be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white [as a result of her cleansing at the judgment seat of Christ]” (Rv 19:7-8). Both these events occur prior to Christ’s return to earth and thus demand a prior rapture.

It is clear that the Second Coming cannot occur until these two vital events, which demand the presence of the church in heaven, have taken place. It is only after the Lamb has been married to His bride that she accompanies Him back to earth to rescue Israel and to destroy Antichrist and his armies: “And the armies which were in heaven followed him...clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (Rv 19:14).

We know not why the Bridegroom tarries, but exactly as He foretold, the church is asleep. In that context, our Lord added: “And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him” (Mt 25:6). May each of us be listening eagerly for that cry of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. Indeed, we ought to be sounding it aloud, for the Lord could come at any moment to take us to Himself. So let us watch and wait and look for Him in eager anticipation—and encourage others to do the same. It will have a purifying and motivating effect in our lives."

-Dave Hunt

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

The 2 thessalonians scriptures are speaking to and of the church, which is on the earth at that time of the revealing of Antichrist

I looked up what John Calvin thought on this.

Calvin said the visible church is remaining on the earth and is reduced to a state of apostasy and ruin, and it is not the world that apostatized, that would be silly to compare it to the Roman Empire.
And then the church is restored at the return of Christ.

Calvin would have said a pretrib rapture was a strange doctrine. As in his own day, he makes mention of all the various twistings about this passage that people have taught. As would I am certain all the reformers condemned a pre trib rapture as a dreadful heresy.

2 Thessalonians 2 Calvin's Commentaries


3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

3. Ne quis vos decipiat ullo modo; quia nisi prius venerit discessio, et nisi revelatus fuerit sceleratus ille filius perditus,

4. Who opposeth and exhalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

4. Adverserius, et qui se extollit adversus omne, quod dicitur Deus, aut numen: ita ut ipse in templo Dei tanquam Deus sedeat, ostendens se ipsum quasi sit Deus.



3 Let no man deceive you. That they may not groundlessly promise themselves the arrival in so short a time of the joyful day of redemption, he presents to them a melancholy prediction as to the future scattering of the Church. This discourse entirely corresponds with that which Christ held in the presence of his disciples, when they had asked him respecting the end of the world. For he exhorts them to prepare themselves for enduring hard conflicts, [639] (Matthew 24:6,) and after he has discoursed of the most grievous and previously unheard of calamities, by which the earth was to be reduced almost to a desert, he adds, that the end is not yet, but that these things are the beginnings of sorrows. In the same way, Paul declares that believers must exercise warfare for a long period, before gaining a triumph.

We have here, however, a remarkable passage, and one that is in the highest degree worthy of observation. This was a grievous and dangerous temptation, which might shake even the most confirmed, and make them lose their footing -- to see the Church, which had by means of such labors been raised up gradually and with difficulty to some considerable standing, fall down suddenly, as if torn down by a tempest. Paul, accordingly, fortifies beforehand the minds, not merely of the Thessalonians, but of all the pious, that when the Church should come to be in a scattered condition, they might not be alarmed, as though it were a thing that was new and unlooked for.

As, however, interpreters have twisted this passage in various ways, we must first of all endeavor to ascertain Paul's true meaning. He says that the day of Christ will not come, until the world has fallen into apostasy, and the reign of Antichrist has obtained a footing in the Church; for as to the exposition that some have given of this passage, as referring to the downfall of the Roman empire, it is too silly to require a lengthened refutation. I am also surprised, that so many writers, in other respects learned and acute, have fallen into a blunder in a matter that is so easy, were it not that when one has committed a mistake, others follow in troops without consideration. Paul, therefore, employs the term apostasy to mean -- a treacherous departure from God, and that not on the part of one or a few individuals, but such as would spread itself far and wide among a large multitude of persons. For when apostasy is made mention of without anything being added, it cannot be restricted to a few. Now, none can be termed apostates, but such as have previously made a profession of Christ and the gospel. Paul, therefore, predicts a certain general revolt of the visible Church. "The Church must be reduced to an unsightly and dreadful state of ruin, before its full restoration be effected."

 

[DeaconDean]

The 2 thessalonians scriptures are speaking to and of the church, which is on the earth at that time of the revealing of Antichrist

I looked up what John Calvin thought on this.

Calvin said the visible church is remaining on the earth and is reduced to a state of apostasy and ruin, and it is not the world that apostatized, that would be silly to compare it to the Roman Empire.
And then the church is restored at the return of Christ.

Calvin would have said a pretrib rapture was a strange doctrine. As in his own day, he makes mention of all the various twistings about this passage that people have taught. As would I am certain all the reformers condemned a pre trib rapture as a dreadful heresy.

2 Thessalonians 2 Calvin's Commentaries


3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

3. Ne quis vos decipiat ullo modo; quia nisi prius venerit discessio, et nisi revelatus fuerit sceleratus ille filius perditus,

4. Who opposeth and exhalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he, as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

4. Adverserius, et qui se extollit adversus omne, quod dicitur Deus, aut numen: ita ut ipse in templo Dei tanquam Deus sedeat, ostendens se ipsum quasi sit Deus.



3 Let no man deceive you. That they may not groundlessly promise themselves the arrival in so short a time of the joyful day of redemption, he presents to them a melancholy prediction as to the future scattering of the Church. This discourse entirely corresponds with that which Christ held in the presence of his disciples, when they had asked him respecting the end of the world. For he exhorts them to prepare themselves for enduring hard conflicts, [639] (Matthew 24:6,) and after he has discoursed of the most grievous and previously unheard of calamities, by which the earth was to be reduced almost to a desert, he adds, that the end is not yet, but that these things are the beginnings of sorrows. In the same way, Paul declares that believers must exercise warfare for a long period, before gaining a triumph.

We have here, however, a remarkable passage, and one that is in the highest degree worthy of observation. This was a grievous and dangerous temptation, which might shake even the most confirmed, and make them lose their footing -- to see the Church, which had by means of such labors been raised up gradually and with difficulty to some considerable standing, fall down suddenly, as if torn down by a tempest. Paul, accordingly, fortifies beforehand the minds, not merely of the Thessalonians, but of all the pious, that when the Church should come to be in a scattered condition, they might not be alarmed, as though it were a thing that was new and unlooked for.

As, however, interpreters have twisted this passage in various ways, we must first of all endeavor to ascertain Paul's true meaning. He says that the day of Christ will not come, until the world has fallen into apostasy, and the reign of Antichrist has obtained a footing in the Church; for as to the exposition that some have given of this passage, as referring to the downfall of the Roman empire, it is too silly to require a lengthened refutation. I am also surprised, that so many writers, in other respects learned and acute, have fallen into a blunder in a matter that is so easy, were it not that when one has committed a mistake, others follow in troops without consideration. Paul, therefore, employs the term apostasy to mean -- a treacherous departure from God, and that not on the part of one or a few individuals, but such as would spread itself far and wide among a large multitude of persons. For when apostasy is made mention of without anything being added, it cannot be restricted to a few. Now, none can be termed apostates, but such as have previously made a profession of Christ and the gospel. Paul, therefore, predicts a certain general revolt of the visible Church. "The Church must be reduced to an unsightly and dreadful state of ruin, before its full restoration be effected."

Since when has John Calvin been 100% correct on everything he taught?

To the best of my knowledge, the only person who was 100% correct in everything He taught was the Lord Jesus Christ!

I identify as a Calvinist, yet I disagree with him on his viewpoint on infant baptism.

In fact:

"To the Reformers in the sixteenth century the Roman Catholic Church was still "the church," and it only needed reforming. They sought to reform a church which they, regarded as the true body of Christ. They assumed that both the baptism, and the ordination of the Roman Church were still valid. Neither John Calvin nor any other Reformers denounced their Catholic baptisms. The Reformers did not set out to restore the true church by copying the instructions revealed in Acts. Instead they worked to reform the "church" which already existed."

Are Baptists Reformed? By: Lawrence A. Justice

Funny also is that in the 1500's, there was a "Catholic" society that actually taught a pre-trib rapture!

"The Jesuits, or Societas Iesu, was started when Ignatius of Loyola got six young men together and started their own monastic order in 1534. Pope Paul III put his stamp of approval on the whole idea six years later. They then went on to become one of the most vicious organizations ever devised by man. Heinrich Himmler, the founder and head of the German Gestapo, credits the Jesuits as being the model for his organization.

With such a powerful tool in the hands of the Pope, it is easy to see why the Pope would order the Jesuits to destroy the Protestant Reformation and all other forms of Christianity. The Jesuits took over the Office of the Inquisition. They penetrated and subverted every political institution in Europe, as well as any and all religious institutions. In fact, they became so successful, the monarchies of Europe pressured the Pope to disband them – which he did, in 1773. But, like a really bad case of cancer, they came roaring back.

And, they wrote books.

When the Protestant Reformation began, men like Luther and Knox claimed that it was the Catholic Church itself who was to be the Antichrist. This made the Pope nervous, and at the Council of Trent, the Pope commissioned the Jesuits to counteract this dangerous idea.

In the late 1500s, two Jesuits, Francisco Ribera and Roberto Bellarmino, came to the Pope’s rescue and created a new Roman Catholic doctrine called Futurism, or Jesuit Futurism. Basically, Jesuit Futurism just says that the Roman Catholic Church can’t possibly have anything to do with the Antichrist. Of course, they wrote it in Latin, which kept it from being a ‘best seller’.

Along comes Chilean-born Manuel Lacunza, a Jesuit priest who found himself with too much time on his hands, because he’d been defrocked. (Remember that part about the Pope disbanding the Jesuits in 1773?) Lacunza built on the ideas of Ribera and Bellarmino by adding that all the good Christians (i.e., Catholics) would be resurrected BEFORE the Antichrist. However, he said that after this ‘rapture’, the Roman Catholic Church would side with the Antichrist.

The Pope liked it, except for the last bit, so he banned it."

Source

You know, its funny that maybe, just maybe, those left behind that call themselves Christians but are not, could be those who call themselves the "church".

I'm sure that there will be many of false Christians not taken when the rapture occurs.

"People who identify themselves as Christians by tradition and culture but who do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit will go through the great trial on earth. Going through the tribulation will cost most of those who continue to identify with Jesus after the Rapture their lives. It will be a trial by fire; those who overcome by losing their life for His namesake will be saved. Those cowards that seek to save their lives by denying Jesus will lose their souls."

Source

And what may be strange to you, and John Calvin, was not strange to the ECF's, as shown.

What is stranger still, since you want to beat this path down, is what John Calvin is most known for was advocated in the 5th century, yet forgotten until the 1500's.

And here again, there are certain facts presented, even with scripture that show just when the wrath of God begins, and there is also a provision in scripture that says we are saved from it.

And you cannot work around that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Here is another consideration.

In a sense, preterists are correct in that part of Mt. 24 has been fulfilled.

From verse 1 through 14 those things have already happened.

What is disputed is 15 through 26.

There was a time when many believed that Antiochus Epiphanes was the one spoken of here. But that isn't true because all he did was desecrate the altar. Desecration and desolation are two different things. Antiochus desecrated the altar by offering pigs (swine) upon the altar.

There is/was a belief that this was speaking of Flavius Titus, conqueror of the Jews in AD 70. This can't be true either as history not once records any account of Titus being called a "desolator". In fact, reading the War of the Jews, Titus absolutely did not want the temple destroyed.

Josephus records:

"But Titus said, that "although the Jews should get upon that holy house, and fight us thence, yet ought we not to revenge ourselves on things that are inanimate, instead of the men themselves;" and that he was not in any case for burning down so vast a work as that was, because this would be a mischief to the Romans themselves, as it would be an ornament to their government while it continued."

Josephus, Wars, Book VI, IV, III

In fact, when he heard the temple was on fire he dashed out and tried to order his troops to put out the fire:

"And now a certain person came running to Titus, and told him of this fire, as he was resting himself in his tent after the last battle; whereupon he rose up in great haste, and, as he was, ran to the holy house, in order to have a stop put to the fire; after him followed all his commanders, and after them followed the several legions, in great astonishment; so there was a great clamor and tumult raised, as was natural upon the disorderly motion of so great an army. Then did Caesar, both by calling to the soldiers that were fighting, with a loud voice, and by giving a signal to them with his right hand, order them to quench the fire. But they did not hear what he said, though he spake so loud, having their ears already dimmed by a greater noise another way; nor did they attend to the signal he made with his hand neither, as still some of them were distracted with fighting, and others with passion. But as for the legions that came running thither, neither any persuasions nor any threatenings could restrain their violence, but each one's own passion was his commander at this time; and as they were crowding into the temple together, many of them were trampled on by one another, while a great number fell among the ruins of the cloisters, which were still hot and smoking, and were destroyed in the same miserable way with those whom they had conquered; and when they were come near the holy house, they made as if they did not so much as hear Caesar's orders to the contrary; but they encouraged those that were before them to set it on fire."

Josephus, Wars, Book VII, IV, VI

The only recourse that makes any sense, is the one where context plays its part. Since Jesus was addressing his disciples, and it was addressing the Temple, it must be meant to be understood of speaking of a time different than that of AD 70. And in doing so, any Jew who is alive in a period where the temple is built, if they see the anti-chirst/false prophet/beast, standing the holy of holies, they should run for the hills.

History also records that for a brief period, the siege was lifted, and some people escaped to Petra as also recorded by Eusebius (See Ecclesiatical History).

So in a very real sense, everything in Mt. 24:1-26 has already happened. With the exception of the "abomination of desolation".

John Walvoord even agrees that the context of Mt. 24, allows for both near and future fulfillment.

So what we are left with is who is the "abomination of desolation" and the fulfillment of verses 29-31.

And, if you really want to get even more technical, scripture says:

"Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." -Lk. 21:24 (KJV)

While in this world, there are many different kinds of people. However, scripture does not see it that way. There are only two kinds of people, Jews and Gentiles.

I was always taught that one of the greatest signs of the end was what took place on May 9, 1947. Israel was made a free and independent state.

Many saw this as when the times of the Gentiles was fulfilled. Not so.

On one of the most holiest places for Jews sits a temple erected by Gentiles. The Dome of the Rock!

You can make the argument that the Muslim nation is an "off spring" of Abraham. They themselves make this claim (the first born of Abraham). But they are not a Jew, they are half descendants of Abraham and Hagar.

Being mixed, they qualify as Gentile.

Why is this important?

It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that what was spoken of in the great Olivet Discourse has not yet been fulfilled.

Who now holds the Dome of the Rock?

Who holds complete control of Jerusalem?

Jerusalem is still being "trodden down of the Gentiles" because "the times of the Gentiles" has not been fulfilled.

When Israel has complete control of all of Jerusalem, then and only then will the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

One more point to consider. Zech. 14:4 says:

"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

In both 1 Thess. 4:13-17, and 1 Cor. 15:51-54, this event is not recorded.

In fact, verses 2-3 describe very closely what happens in Rev. 19:11-20.

And if you really want to get to the nitty-gritty, plagues, famine, cannibalism, eating undigested bits of food from dung, etc, has already occurred. See Josephus' record on these events.

So what happens during the Great Tribulation is so unique that it has not been seen before, nor will it ever be seen again.

There is no reason for us to believe that the church, born-again Christians will have to endure what is to befall mankind in these days. Most especially in light of Rev. 6:17.

Like I said before, eschatology has got to be one of the deepest subjects one can take, besides textual criticism. Not only do you have to have each and every scripture that speaks on end times, but you have to look at history as well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Let me also say this, there is always a slim possibility that I may be wrong. I admit it, but by the same token, nobody else, not Mid-tribbers, nor post-tribbers will admit the same thing.

There are certain things, most especially doctrines which each of us hold to. And there are some doctrines I know that spark nothing but pure debate.

Open any discussion on any doctrine Protestants, namely Reformers, hold to, sit back and watch the sparks fly!

I have undertaken a study on textual criticism. So far, I've been immerged in this study almost 4 years in this.

Eschatology is another. I've been engrossed in this since I was 12. I'm 55 now. That's 43 years now.

There are times, especially in this thread, where my Dispensational background shows. Most notably in the area of the "rapture".

In 43 years of studying eschatology, I have found nothing to convert me away from my previously stated position.

Many today, even some in this thread want to espouse that a "pre-tribulation" is a fairly new position even though I have shown the ECF's held to this position.

Fact is, Augustine also held to one of the earliest doctrines about reprobation.

"Augustine maintained is an internal operation of God upon those whom He designs to save, imparting not only the power, but also the will to do good. The fact that some are saved and some are lost he attributed to the will of God. Hence his doctrines on unconditional predestination, of particular redemption, and of special and irresistible grace. Reprobation he granted, was based upon foreseen guilt, but apparently unconscious of the inconsistency, he denied the same applicability to election. In 529, the system of Augustine was established as church doctrine by the Council of Arausio (Orange).

Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Volume 8, By John McClintock, James Strong, New York, Harper and Brothers Publishers, Franklin Square, 1879, Predestination, p. 499

Which further proves that there are indeed some things that get forgotten, and later, are rediscovered. i.e.: pre-trib rapture in the ECF's.

In these days, my focus has been more so on the events in Revelation and in history which solidly point to the fact that we are indeed living in the last days.

A prime example is Zachariah's description of a nuclear detonation:

" Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth." -Zech. 14:12 (KJV)

This also matches almost identically to what Peter describes:

"the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat" -2 Pet. 3:12 (KJV)

Paul Tibbets, commander of the B-29 that dropped the first atomic bomb on Japan described the earth as "black tar burning as if on fire".

Not that Zachariah's or Peter's prophesy has been fulfilled, just that in 1945, the technology to fulfill it came into being.

Another striking prophesy that has the potential to be fulfilled now is the account of the 2 witnesses.

The two witnesses, as to who they are is still being debated today, but the two witnesses are said:

"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them." Rev. 11:7-11 (KJV)

At no other time in human history was this possible, that is, until 1962. In 1962 NASA launched into orbit Telstar II, and satellite which would enable the American audience to watch "Live" broadcasts of the 1962 Olympics in Japan. Today, almost immediately, any news item can be broadcast "Live" as it happens. Remember the broadcast of the events that happened "Live" to the World Trade Centers?

Another one that has potential for being fulfilled in the passage about taking the mark of the beast. With todays technology, this is now possible as seen in the RFID chips. Believe it or not, most of us have this technology in our pockets. Anybody have debit or credit card with a "smart chip" in it? Fact is, the U.S. Army has been experimenting with this since the late 1960's. Fact is, in the early 1980's Ronald Reagan also helped pass a law that requires any U.S. Ambassador and their family, to be implanted with this technology so that if "kidnapped" their location can be tracked and located. This is fact, I'm not making any of this up. And even more recent is the company in California that is allowing its employees to be microchipped so that they can log on and off their computers, check emails, purchase snacks and meals in employee lounges, clock in and out. Out of 200 employees, 150 have already signed up for this. WOW!

Another potential fulfillment of prophesy has just recently came into being. Now this one may be debated, but I don't think so. Revelation 13:

"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." -Rev. 13:12-15 (KJV)

Up until recently, any and all Live or regular television broadcasts were analog. Now the law has required all broadcasts to be in "digital" format. Do you comprehend what implications come from this? Normal analog broadcasts meant that there was built in a 7 second delay before the picture was sent out. Unless major planning and prior taping had occurred, tampering with analog television was not possible. Now that all broadcasts are now "digital", the signal can be manipulated with almost immediately. The most famous sic-fi movie of all time show cased digital technology: "Star Wars". And this was in 1977! Ever seen the movie "The Running Man"? Now, digital technology and the effects it produces stagger the mind. Has anybody seen "Avatar"?

Now as to signs in the heavens, I also believe this technology is here and now. I've seen it on TV, read about it also. Both the United States and Russia are experimenting with controlling the weather. Look up the H.A.A.R.P. project. If you don't believe me, see Jesse Ventura's TV show "Conspiracy Theories" it was featured on there!

On a side note, scripture also says:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" -Acts 2:17 (KJV)

This is the same thing said in Joel 2:28!

My own personal "vision" or "dream" was one that involved the RFID. As seen in the movie "Cats Eye" people who don't take the mark of the beast, would be captured, their family put in a separate room, virtually tormented, while one watches, and then told that unless they take the mark, they (and their family) would face death, or if they took the mark, their family might be spared.

This may sound funny to you, but I have had others who revealed to me they have had a dream/vision similar to mine! Co-incidental? I don't think so. This also reinforces the notion that those who find salvation in his dark period, will pay a terrible price.

I sit, I study, I read, I watch. Yes, we are living in the last days. At no other time in the history of the world are we closer than now.

And in spite of all this, I still see no reason to believe that Christians will endure this terrible time.

I do, however see that just as the Church at Philadelphia is promised: "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." I see Christians being "raptured" out before the Great Tribulation begins.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[sdowney717]

In Matthew 24, the only rapture like event taught by Christ occurs after the great tribulation in verse 31. And those who are 'taken' are compared to those taken away by Noah's flood, and that means taken for destruction. Christ is speaking to believers here, His people, the 'YOU' are whom He is addressing, people like us who are reading this right now.

This abomination of desolation is the same son of perdition that Paul teaches is revealed and stands in the place of God and assumes for himself everything that is God.

For the elect's sake He shortens these days, God makes a quicker work of the end of days that He would if it was just the wicked left behind.
The wicked will perish with unrighteous deception, false wonders performed by Antichrist and a strongdelusion sent on them by God, note v24.

At this point Christ's return is imminent, the 'fig tree has leafed out tender leaves', but He tarries to the end of the great tribulation as His return is the end of the great tribulation time.

He says he comes at an hour which you do not expect, so for those who had expected Him before all these things, He did not come did He! He tarried, so they grew weary of waiting and scoffed. So the visible church went into apostasy, they did not keep faith watching and waiting for the Lord, they claimed He should have already have come for them, yet He did not as all these events they witnessed and lived through, still He has not returned. So they apostatized and scoffed and decided maybe it was all just a fraud, His promise to return. This is also a part of the strong delusion. Many will deceive many people, and the church will apostatize and some will worship the antichrist as Christ come again with false prophets pointing to that false Christ as the one who was to come.

Christ is speaking to His disciples, but not only these particular disciples, Christ is speaking to His church which is on the earth at that future time of the end.
This teaching of the end extends all through time down to our present day, if it has not yet occurred! So it as fresh for us now as it was for them then.

Luke 17
22 Then He said to the disciples,
“The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.
23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them.

So why will they long to see His return? Because they have waited and HE has tarried, and things are rough in the world, and they are growing weary of waiting because of the things coming upon the earth.

Matthew 24
The Great Tribulation
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

No One Knows the Day or Hour
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant
45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

John 6
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[P92]

Not so, those whom the Lord says "depart from me I never knew you" are exacty those who thought they were saved but never were to begin with.

God Bless

Till all are one.

The "never saved" argument doesn't work with 2 Peter 2:20-21.

#1. The expression "knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ" always refers to believers. Note carefully, it is not merely epignosis, but rather, epignosis of the Lord Jesus Christ.

#2. Please explain how someone who is "never saved" can escape the pollutions of the world.

#3. Please explain why it would have been better for them to have never known the way of righteousness if they were "never saved" to begin with.

 

[P92]

It matches just fine.

John Gill comments:

"For wheresoever the carcass is
Not Christ, as he is held forth in the Gospel, crucified and slain, through whose death is the savour of life, and by whom salvation is, and to whom sensible sinners flock, encouraged by the ministry of the word; and much less Christ considered as risen, exalted, and coming in great glory to judgment, to whom the word "carcass" will by no means agree, and but very poorly under the former consideration: but the people of the Jews are designed by it, in their fallen, deplorable, miserable, and lifeless state, who were like to the body of a man, or any other creature, struck dead with lightning from heaven; being destroyed by the breath of the mouth, and brightness of the coming of the son of man, like lightning, just as antichrist will be at the last day:

there will the eagles be gathered together:
not particular believers here, or all the saints at the day of judgment; though these may be, as they are, compared to eagles for many things; as their swiftness in flying to Christ, their sagacity and the sharpness of their spiritual sight, soaring on high, and renewing their spiritual strength and youth: but here the Roman armies are intended, whose ensigns were eagles; and the eagle still is, to this day, the ensign of the Roman empire: formerly other creatures, with the eagle, were used for ensigns; but C. Marius, in his second consulship, banished them, and appropriated the eagle only to the legions: nor was it a single eagle that was carried before the army, but every legion had an eagle went before it, made of gold or silver, and carried upon the top of a spear: and the sense of this passage is this, that wherever the Jews were, whether at Jerusalem, where the body and carcass of them was, in a most forlorn and desperate condition; or in any other parts of the country, the Roman eagles, or legions, would find them out, and make an utter destruction of them. The Persic version, contrary to others, and to all copies, renders it "vultures". Though this creature is of the same nature with the eagle, with respect to feeding on carcasses: hence the proverb, ``cujus vulturis hoe erit cadaver?'' "what vulture shall have this carcass?" It has a very sharp sight, and quick smell, and will, by both, discern carcasses at almost incredible distance: it will diligently watch a man that is near death; and will follow armies going to battle, as historians relate: and it is the eagle which is of the vulture kind, as Aristotle observes, that takes up dead bodies, and carries them to its nest. And Pliny says, it is that sort of eagles only which does so; and some have affirmed that eagles will by no means touch dead carcasses: but this is contrary not only to this passage of Scripture, but to others; particularly to ( Job 39:30 ) "her young ones also suck up blood, and where the slain are, there is she": an expression much the same with this in the text, and to which it seems to refer; see also ( Proverbs 30:17 ) . Though Chrysostom"

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

Pure eisegesis. Scripture says nothing of Roman armies.

 

[P92]

Look back again, their works are judged, whether good or bad, but none lose their salvation.

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -1 Cor. 3:15 (KJV)

The Bema seat judgment, is a trial of what our works are since the point of salvation, and whether or not we will receive a reward.

The Great White Throne judgment is to see whether or not ones name is in the Lambs book of Life. Not works!

The day I knelt and prayed, repented, confessed and believed, my name was written into the Lambs book of Life!

God Bless

Till all are one.

I'll take your refusal to address my pointing to the context of 1 Cor 3 as a sure sign of your mistaken view. Have you not learned in many decades that context, context, context is foundational to proper exegesis?

Re the Bema seat, see the parable of the talents. The one who was unfruitful with the gracious talent offered him is cast into the outer darkness. So much for only receiving rewards.