The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine? But accepted?

Kenneth Redden · Dec 29, 2016

Unit 11 said:
Just don't let anyone drag you into an argument about when it's supposed to happen...

Why? That's easy; it happens when the Holy Father says it happens.

Biblewriter · Dec 29, 2016

Hank77 said:
He very clearly says that we will be 'taken up' in the resurrection.
He use 'they', 'themselves', 'them', even when talking about our bodies.

You are stating what you believe Irenaeus was teaching but ignore when he says the 'taking up' is the resurrection? I guess that can work for you.

You are interpreting two unrelated statements to apply to the same concept. And you are doing this without even so much as considering he overall scenario developed by Irenaeus. I spent a considerable length of time studying the entire twelve chapters Irenaeus devoted to the end times, and presented a very short summary of my findings. When you are prepared to demonstrate how your concept fits into the overall scenario constructed by Irenasus, get back to me and we can discuss it.

Kenneth Redden · Dec 29, 2016

JellyQuest said:
we are certainly not bound by the science of this universe but free in the word of God who rules OVER it and it is subject to him .
After all , when he comes he will roll up the heavens like a scroll and appear . (which puts an end to all lying theories of theistic evolution too )

That is a very weak answer. You give me absolutely no biblical support.
I can start with the very basic; does, "now," mean, now? According to Webster Dictionary, yes it does: now, does actually mean, now. That's, sin-free 1, sin exists 0.
Does the KJV Bible say that Jesus Christ, "taketh away the sin of the world." And yes; in John 1:29, it is written that Jesus, "taketh away the sin of the world." That's sin-free 2, sin exist 0.
Is Christ work finished? Yes, he said, "it is finished," in John 19:13. That's sin-free 3, sin exist 0.
Can we do ANYTHING to change what Christ has done? No, as said in Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." That's sin-free 4, sin exists 0.
It is all a matter of interpretation.

I have much more...

Thank you.

BroIgnatius · Dec 29, 2016

Biblewriter said:
In post #48 of this thread, I presented hard proof that this claim is simply incorrect.

My friend, what you posted is not "hard proof". It is rather taking quotes out-of-context of Church theological history. Though it is true that some of the Church Fathers were premillennialists, including Irenaeus and Justin Martyr, they were not dispensationalists (which is the theory behind the rapture idea today, and which began with people like Darby). Irenaeus and Martyr viewed the Catholic Church as the New Israel. Perhaps most importantly, they did not understand the Church to be an invisible, spiritual entity that would be taken secretly from the earth before the final events of the world, which is the dispensational rapture theory. The idea of this kind of Rapture would have been completely foreign to them.

In addition, premillennialism was never a universal teaching of the Catholic Church, and by the fifth century it was no longer held by any of the Fathers.

Also, opinions of individual Church Fathers did not and does not necessarily constitute the official teaching of the Church at the time, nor now.

Kenneth Redden · Dec 29, 2016

JellyQuest said:
we are certainly not bound by the science of this universe but free in the word of God who rules OVER it and it is subject to him .
After all , when he comes he will roll up the heavens like a scroll and appear . (which puts an end to all lying theories of theistic evolution too )

There are two interpretations available in the KJV Bible: the first is for those in the Bible. It consist totally of Christian Doctrine. The other, as Paul has shown us here today, gives us the secrets of the days of the creation, for the 21st Century.
So; yes, it is all a matter of interpretation. Do you want to be bound by the 10 commandments of antiquity, or would you rather listen to the letters of the text with secrets of the hidden wisdom of God, for us here today in the 21st Century? The choice is yours.

Hank77 · Dec 29, 2016

Biblewriter said:
You are interpreting two unrelated statements to apply to the same concept. And you are doing this without even so much as considering he overall scenario developed by Irenaeus. I spent a considerable length of time studying the entire twelve chapters Irenaeus devoted to the end times, and presented a very short summary of my findings. When you are prepared to demonstrate how your concept fits into the overall scenario constructed by Irenasus, get back to me and we can discuss it.

It won't make any difference to you what I say or have studied.

Biblewriter said:
The fact that some writers in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries were ignorant of these very many much older writers is immaterial.

I know this because you made this statement about men who spent their whole lives preaching and studying from many MSS, read and knew what the Church fathers had written, studied the Talmud and other Jewish writings, and even the Quran. But you toss their knowledge aside as if it is nothing.

DingDing · Dec 29, 2016

vinsight4u said:
...
There is Satan's time of wrath - the great tribulation. After that comes the wrath of God.
...

DingDing said:
This is the answer (in part) I was looking for from SeventyOne, which he could not answer. But now, where do you find these two wraths described in the Book of Revelation?

vinsight4u said:
Revelation 12:12 refers to the devil having great wrath. What else is key is
that during this time the woman would be protected from the face of the serpent. the woman would be nourished
When it is the time of God's wrath people will try to hide from His face.
....as in the 6th seal
God's wrath plagues are seen by John in Revelation 15:1 and later
in the seven vials.

Revelation 6:16-17 is the other (2nd) time of wrath. Both occur during Daniel's 70th week, yet both are distinct, and neither covers the whole of Daniel's 70th week. The 1st time of wrath, satan's wrath, begins at the mid-point of the week, and the LORD's wrath (Day of the LORD) begins sometime later.

DingDing · Dec 29, 2016

vinsight4u said:
The restrainer is not the Holy Spirit.
...

I believe that a careful study points toward the Angle Michael as being the restrainer (see Daniel 12:1). And the Hebrew word translated commonly as "stand up" can also mean "stand aside". There is also the masculine gender used in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7; this gender usage does not support many of the proposed options for who the restrainer could be (for example, the "church" would require a feminine usage, since the church is a bride and is therefor a feminine entity).

DingDing · Dec 29, 2016

ADisciple said:
To be upfront, it has been many moons since I last dug into the End Time topic as I've been studying up on other topics since. But, I believe the 7 vials/bowels happen at the 7 trumpet and that is God's Wrath. It's been stated in Scripture that the saints are not appointed to wrath but we are to expect tribulation, beheadings, etc (which is during the 6th trumpet/seal mostly, right?).

I've read a handful of various ideas on the chronology of the End Times (Revelation) and I haven't quite settled on the one that feels right to me through the Holy Spirit. It's probably not quite my time yet to know. *shrugs*

You might not know this, or have been told this, but you seem to have a gift for understanding which few have. (As my wife would say, "You go girl.") Anyway, I reiterate what I have said before, your need to read Rosenthal's, The Prewrath Rapture of the Church. You go girl!

vinsight4u · Dec 29, 2016

Hank77 · Dec 29, 2016

expos4ever said:
The term rapture was used by Philip Doddridge[27] and John Gill[28] in their New Testament commentaries, with the idea that believers would be caught up prior to judgment on earth and Jesus' second coming.

While it is true that John Gill used the Latin word 'rapture' he did not see a 'rapture' that was a separate event from the resurrection of the saints.

"For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,.... The apostle having something new and extraordinary to deliver, concerning the coming of Christ, the first resurrection, or the resurrection of the saints, the change of the living saints, and the rapture both of the raised and living in the clouds to meet Christ in the air,.......
That we which are alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord: not that the apostle thought that he and the saints then in the flesh should live and continue till the second coming of Christ; for he did not imagine that the coming of Christ was so near, as is manifest from 2 Thessalonians 2:1 though the Thessalonians might take him in this sense, which he there corrects; but he speaks of himself and others in the first person plural, by way of instance and example, for illustration sake; that supposing he and others should be then in being, the following would be the case:.......
however, from hence it appears, that there will be saints alive at Christ's second coming; he will have a seed to serve him till he comes again; he always had in the worst of times, and will have, and that even in the last days, in the days of the son of man, which are said to be like those of Noah and of Lot: and these are said to "remain", or to be "left", these will be a remnant, the residue and remainder of the election of grace, and will be such as have escaped the fury of antichrist and his followers, or of the persecutors of the saints:..."
1 Thessalonians 4 Gill's Exposition

John Gill did not believe that the saints would be removed from the earth before the tribulation but that few would escaped the persecution and terror of antichrist.
The use of the word 'rapture' has never been the issue.

vinsight4u · Dec 29, 2016

vinsight4u · Dec 29, 2016

vinsight4u · Dec 29, 2016

vinsight4u · Dec 29, 2016

Brother Mike · Dec 29, 2016

Frank Lo said:
The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine?

But accepted?

Can't find the word rapture in my bible only accepted by a lot Christian circles, why?

Does Satan wants to deceive us and make us lose hope, be afraid?

Does anybody has a Biblical answer?

Seriously, you know how old this debate is? we need to grow and learn to walk in the power of God, not get involved with foolish things hashed out over many years. Rapture is in the bible, it's in the Latin vulgate. More study, less focus on things that don't matter, more focus on the power of the Name of Jesus and the power to help others.

Believers will escape the Wrath of God coming on this earth. It won't be pretty. Now if that is what others call middle of tribulation, or whatever, it won't matter if a believer is not on their path and doing what the Lord Jesus had for them to do.

Only the unfaithful and faithless would allow fear in their life anyway. No believer should have any fear of anything but reverence God. The fearful also have a place in the Lake of fire, so we don't need to concern ourselves with those that harbor fear.

GusKlenke · Dec 29, 2016

I know I'm 155 responses into this discussion, but I can't help but make a comment. This topic, as always, is a hot button issue which seems to draw a lot of heart-felt discussion. The very fact that this is the case seems to imply that the Lord did not make this issue as crystal clear as some other doctrines. That being the case, I am often surprised at the vehemence with which one side will attack the other even to the point of declaring the opposition to be heretics. Personally I come down more often on the pre-trib side, but I see the logic of the post-tribers as well. The fact that the word 'rapture' does in fact appear in scripture was well stated by ewq 1938 at the top of this discussion. I might add that Irenaus (a second century church father who, I believe, knew Polycarp, the disciple of John) wrote in his book, Against Heresies,

"When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, 'There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be.'"

While this proves nothing, it does seem to imply that he believed in a pre-trib rapture. If he knew Polycarp, a man who had studied at the feet of John (the author of Revelation) he probably received this notion from a competent source. This is all conjecture, of course.

Original Happy Camper · Dec 29, 2016

JacksBratt said:
And, secondly, I just cannot get my head around the picture of every Christian living through the tribulation. Think about what that would entail.

Better yet read about it, God's people went through the plagues of Egypt. The last seven had no effect on them.
There are seven last plagues in Revelation that will have no effect on God's People. Because they have the seal of God in their forehead.

JellyQuest · Dec 29, 2016

Biblewriter said:
Actually, a catching away of the church before the great tribulation is taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any significant length) that has survived to the present day, and has been taught again and again throughout the history of the church. I traced this doctrine through ancient times in post #48 of this thread, and also summarized its occurences in later times.

i don't really give a rats bottom what 'some commentary says " -the word of god is quite plain and clear on it . not sure why some people think a commentary is some how authoritative .

JellyQuest · Dec 29, 2016

Kenneth Redden said:
There are two interpretations available in the KJV Bible: the first is for those in the Bible. It consist totally of Christian Doctrine. The other, as Paul has shown us here today, gives us the secrets of the days of the creation, for the 21st Century.
So; yes, it is all a matter of interpretation. Do you want to be bound by the 10 commandments of antiquity, or would you rather listen to the letters of the text with secrets of the hidden wisdom of God, for us here today in the 21st Century? The choice is yours.

what secret what mystery ?

The Rapture is not Biblical, False Doctrine? But accepted?

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