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The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

Salem

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Who cares what your Jewish Christian friends have to say about anything? Or a similar note, concerning your next post, who cares about what any people in history have to say about the Bible? Anything any of these people say is worthless. The Bible proves itself, period.

Since Israel doesn't exist today, in God's eyes, there is no middle wall of partition. Your Jewish friends are more likely to want it rebuilt that anyone. The Jews were the only ones that benefited from it.

Can we spell a-n-t-i-S-e-m-e-t-i-s-m? You always have to wonder about people who claim Christ that find accord with the likes of Hitler and Muslims. Now, do you get that from the Holy Spirit? When are you going to publish your rewrite of scripture, where God revoked His eternal promises to Israel? Or have Augustine and Herbert Armstrong already done this for you?

Why don't you reveal the fundamentalist Christian congregation that aligns with your claims, or could it be you don't have one you can cite?
 
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ac28

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Can we spell a-n-t-i-S-e-m-e-t-i-s-m? You always have to wonder about people who claim Christ that find accord with the likes of Hitler and Muslims. Now, do you get that from the Holy Spirit? When are you going to publish your rewrite of scripture, where God revoked His eternal promises to Israel? Or have Augustine and Herbert Armstrong already done this for you?

Why don't you reveal the fundamentalist Christian congregation that aligns with your claims, or could it be you don't have one you can cite?
I said, "Who cares what your Jewish Christian friends have to say about anything?"
Salem said, "Can we spell a-n-t-i-S-e-m-e-t-i-s-m?"

I apologize if I offended anyone. What I meant to say was not the way you took it. That's the 2nd time BAB2 has used what his Jewish friends say to enforce his arguments. He seems to infer, because they're Jewish, they know the truth of how God is treating Israel in this present 2000 year age. I say that's hogwash. In God's eyes, they are Gentiles today, just like everyone else.
 
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Salem

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I said, "Who cares what your Jewish Christian friends have to say about anything?"
Salem said, "Can we spell a-n-t-i-S-e-m-e-t-i-s-m?"

I apologize if I offended anyone. What I meant to say was not the way you took it. That's the 2nd time BAB2 has used what his Jewish friends say to enforce his arguments. He seems to infer, because they're Jewish, they know the truth of how God is treating Israel in this present 2000 year age. I say that's hogwash. In God's eyes, they are Gentiles today, just like everyone else.

That is not the worst that you said. You said, and I quote, "Since Israel doesn't exist today, in God's eyes, there is no middle wall of partition."

That is a false and evil statement, of scripture ignorance, cut from whole cloth, and as if you see through God's eyes, even. It's an anti-Semitic statement, so very typical of hate propaganda from idiotic Muslims and skinheads. And I am not offended, because this sort of slimy stuff is all over the web. People who say such things are a dime a dozen. I just sometimes point it out, when there's a closet Nazi, lurking about in a sheep outfit.
 
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ac28

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Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


Not knowing this, you are obviously not a dispensationalist, yet you are on a dispensationalism forum. Why? To attack dispensationalists? Stick around, though. You might accidentally absorb some truths that you obviously lack.

At the time of the Gospels, salvation was of the Jews (and proselytes) and of them only. John 4:6-7. Since they didn't accept the fact that Christ was their promised Messiah during Christ's ministry and the Acts period, God temporarily counted them Lo ammi = not God's people (See most all of Hosea, especially Hosea 1 and Hosea 3:4). This occurred in Acts 28:28, when the salvation was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. In Acts 28, Paul is talking to the Pharisees, the spiritual leaders of Israel. Also, in Acts 28, Paul pronounced the curse of Isaiah 6:9-10, to Israel, for the 7th and last time in the scriptures. Seven is the number of completion

This Lo ammi state of Israel has existed for the last 2000 years. The only books addressed directly to anyone today, dispensationally, are Paul's last 7 books, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, Titus, and Phile. All others, from Abraham (Gen 12) to Acts 28:28 are addressed, dispensationally, to Israel, Everyone today, in God's eyes, is a Gentile. When the trib starts, Israel will be back on the scene. Then, prophecy will start being fulfilled again. It hasn't been for 2000 years. This isn't the 1st time Israel has been Lo ammi. I have a list somewhere of all the times they were not God's people. When Israel is Lo ammi, time (years) doesn't count (I can prove this with scripture). When Israel doesn't exist, time, history, and prophecy don't exist - interesting study.

Instead of attacking the messenger, wouldn't it be more Christian to show me in the scriptures where I am wrong? If you can.
 
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Salem

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Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


Not knowing this, you are obviously not a dispensationalist, yet you are on a dispensationalism forum. Stick around, though. You might accidentally absorb some truth that you obviously lack.

At the time of the Gospels, salvation was of the Jews and of them only. John 4:6-7. Since they didn't accept the fact that Christ was their promised Messiah during Christ's ministry and the Acts period, God temporarily counted them Lo ammi, not God's people. This occurred in Acts 28:28, when the salvation was taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. This Lo ammi state of Israel has existed for the last 2000 years. The only books addressed directly to anyone today, dispensationally, are Paul's last 7 books, Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, Titus, and Phile. All others, from Abraham (Gen 12) to Acts 28:28 are addressed, dispensationally, to Israel, Everyone today, in God's eyes, is a Gentile. When the trib starts, Israel will be back on the scene.

Instead of attacking the messenger, wouldn't it be more Christian to show me in the scriptures where I am wrong?

Wrong again. I do believe in dispensations, but as properly viewed as a tool, not as carving up the word of God. I know exactly where you're coming from, and you're parroting the errors of lone wolves places like YouTube, trying to micro managed dispensations that are all in their mind, and, in doing so, butchering scripture and promulgating false doctrines.

Your comments are also garden variety anti-Semitic, who cares what Jews think, they don't exist, etc. Pure crap. I'm here to tell you, God is the ultimate Zionist and put the Jewish nation back together. It's no skin off my rear, if you choose to believe these cult lies and proclaim yourself an enemy of God. Have it your way, and all I can say is lots of luck with your YouTube denomination, which is likely some lone wolf dispensationalist, inventing new dispensations, who sees a new dispensation between chapter numbers, like all cults of error that stuff God's word into boxes with doctrines of men, such that the truth can't get out.

But that's your problem. I'm merely pointing it out, like the anti-Semitic remarks, which show that spirit of anti-Semitic evil the world is infected with, which goes hand in hand with somebody who would chase after these new dispensational cults, cropping up like weeds. The people of Israel are not going to suddenly mutate from genetic or spiritual Gentiles into Jews, at the onslaught of the time of Jacob's trouble, because of your imaginary dispensations. They are Jews, right now, in the land. Get real. You can't see how silly that nonsense is? It's frightening you make any sort of sense of such an unscriptural line of thinking and are in such denial of reality, that a Jew is a Jew, that anybody could get sucked into stuff like that.
 
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ac28

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Where's your scripture to prove me wrong? That's the only thing that counts. You don't have any, do you? All you have is the main tool of the ignorant, insults.

Are you saying that Paul was a liar in Ephesians 2:13-14 and that the middle wall of partition still exists?

Dispensations and dispensationalism are 2 totally different things.
 
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Salem

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I will give you some scripture, about Israel, not Gentiles, scripture very explicit of God's program and the Israel borderline Bible idiots know is forever:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

They are Israel in that land. They are Jews. If you want scripture, learn of Israel in the major and minor prophets of the Old Testament, a nation reformed, scripture of now, scripture of before and after the return of the Lord, scripture clear into the millennium. Seek to learn all of scripture. But I'm not usually prone to replying to such ignorance, that denies what the Bible states of the land of Israel and the Jews, people who make ignorant, anti-Semitic statements in the name of some twisted concept of what dispensations are, and I've seen some of the goons teaching this stuff.

But if Israel doesn't exist, have it your way. Again, your ignorance, your anti-Semitic attitudes and false theology not my problem.
 
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Salem

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Stick around, though. You might accidentally absorb some truths that you obviously lack.

I almost forgot, as to insults. Gather around children, we have a new word today. Can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e? F-l-a-m-i-n-g h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e?

Good! Now let's speak of the Lord Jesus, what He said about people that don't understand scripture and have a beam in their eye...

Excellent, Johnny! Indeed, what can anybody say to a person like that?
 
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ac28

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Good try, but Romans was written a couple of years before the hammer came down on Israel in Acts 28:28.

Don't worry though. After paying for their 2000 years of being muleheaded and sinful, in the tribulation, they will inherit the earth and the 3 created heavens.
 
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BABerean2

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Good try, but Romans was written a couple of years before the hammer came down on Israel in Acts 28:28.

Acts 28:28 would be written before the Book of Hebrews, which shows the Gospel continued to be taken to the Jewish people after Acts 28:28. Just because the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles does not mean it stopped for the Jews.

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farout

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The theory commonly called "the rapture hoax" for the origins of the pretribulation rapture goes something like this:

1. The idea originated with Immanuel Lacunza, a Roman Catholic Jesuit, who published a book in 1812 (in Spanish) called The Coming of Messiah in Majesty and Glory.

2. Edward Irving, a pioneer to the Catholic Apostolic Church, translated Lacunza's book in the 1820s. The Catholic Apostolic Church held to the reappearance of the supernatural gifts of tongues, healing and prophesying. While they were not founded by Irving, the members were commonly derided as "Irvingites."

3. Margaret MacDonald, an "Irvingite" gave a prophecy during a meeting and said the rapture was pretribulational.

4. Darby, attending this meeting, appropriated the pretribulation rapture as his own idea.

There are insinuations behind this theory, and to interpret those insinuations:
1. When your belief originates from a Roman Catholic, and especially a Spanish Jesuit, it is downright bad.
2. When this bad idea is translated into English by a misguided heretic, and then one of these Irvingites - Margaret MacDonald - utters it in a prophecy, it is even worse.
3. But it wasn't any prophecy, it was a demonic prophecy coming from a 13 year old girl. Most proper Christians would never touch that with a 10 foot pole, but not Darby.
4. Darby, who obviously couldn't think of something original on his own, decided to plagiarize the idea of a pretribulation rapture. Not just from anybody, but from a 13-year old demonically inspired girl. Bad Darby. Then Darby passed this idea on to the rest of the evangelical world, where most people bought it hook, line and sinker. Very bad Darby. And shame on those who hold to such a demonically inspired doctrine today, because you really should know better.

Now how should dispensationalists respond to this? I really don't think it is very helpful to ask questions such as:
1) Where did Edward Irving learn Spanish?
2) What color was Margaret's hair when she uttered the prophecy?
3) Was Darby really that bad at creating ideas and that great of a marketing expert?
4) Seriously, a demonically inspired 13 year old girl???

What might be helpful though is to ask whether the idea of a pretribulation rapture has been taught before Lacunza. That would immediately go to the heart of the matter.

A man named Morgan Edwards, a Baptist who founded Brown University, wrote something interesting. In the 1740s he wrote that 3.5 years before the two witnesses of Rev 11 were to be killed by the Antichrist, that Jesus would appear in the clouds, and that the dead in Christ would be raised and the living caught up to be with Him.

Going further back, written in the 1300s in Latin, is a text called The History of Brother Dolcino. The beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren are described as: after the coming of the Antichrist, believers will be caught up into paradise to be preserved from harm, then Enoch and Elijah would descend to the earth and eventually be killed by the Antichrist, and after the Antichrist is dead the believers would return to earth.

So if the "rapture hoax" theory is to be taken seriously, shoudn't it at least take these two examples into account? And if it can't...or won't...


You r study is in seriously error. Dig deeper like back into the 3rd century.
 
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BABerean2

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Why do those promoting John Nelson Darby's doctrine find it necessary to find sources of the Pretrib rapture doctrine before the 1800's ?

Because doing otherwise would be to admit a link between their doctrine and the 15 year old Scottish girl, named Margaret Macdonald.

The paper written by Brethren Historian F. R. Coad in 1966 traces John Darby's Pretrib doctrine back to the "Secret Rapture" of the Irvingites.

Did Morgan Edwards write a paper on the topic during the time he was in seminary? Yes.
However, there is no evidence that he taught it as the truth and their is no known link between Edwards and John Darby.

There is a direct link between Darby and the Irvingites, based on the historical writings of other members of the Plymouth Brethren movement as well as a quote from modern Dispensationalist Dr. Charles C. Ryrie.

On page 170 of the 2007 edition of his book “Dispensationalism”, Dr. Charles C. Ryrie connects John Nelson Darby to Irving and the Albury Conference.

“It was not until several years after leaving the Church of England that Darby became interested in prophecy. His interest was piqued through conferences at Albury, out of which the Irvingian movement grew.”


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf



Genesis of Dispensational Theology


Last year Good Fight Ministries produced a DVD tracing the history of the modern Pretrib teaching and proves the link between John Darby and the Irvingite "Secret Rapture".

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/


.
 
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ac28

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Acts 28:28 would be written before the Book of Hebrews, which shows the Gospel continued to be taken to the Jewish people after Acts 28:28. Just because the Gospel was taken to the Gentiles does not mean it stopped for the Jews.

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Not according to my list. I have Hebrews (52AD) being written 8 years before Ac28:28 (60AD). There are many different lists of when the NT books were written. This list was made by a guy I trust using 100% internal Bible evidence. I believe it. I've learned not to trust you,
 
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BABerean2

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Not according to my list. I have Hebrews (52AD) being written 8 years before Ac28:28 (60AD). There are many different lists of when the NT books were written. This list was made by a guy I trust using 100% internal Bible evidence. I believe it. I've learned not to trust you,

Left Behind or Led Astray?

 
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Biblewriter

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He keeps posting worthless videos because he WILL NOT stop pressing his lies about the origin of the pre-trib doctrine. It has been CONCLUSIVELY PROVED to have been taught more than a thousand years before the time of the alleged origin of the doctrine. He has seen this proof, and continues to press his lies.
 
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MWood

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He keeps posting worthless videos because he WILL NOT stop pressing his lies about the origin of the pre-trib doctrine. It has been CONCLUSIVELY PROVED to have been taught more than a thousand years before the time of the alleged origin of the doctrine. He has seen this proof, and continues to press his lies.
If no one responds to him, or comments about him, it may end all of this foolishness.
 
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Danoh

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Good try, but Romans was written a couple of years before the hammer came down on Israel in Acts 28:28.

Don't worry though. After paying for their 2000 years of being muleheaded and sinful, in the tribulation, they will inherit the earth and the 3 created heavens.

Ac28, the view within A2D and A9D is that a passage like Romans 11:25-29 is yet future, as its' "able to graft them in again" relates to a promise related all the way back in Deuteronomy, that their prophet Daniel had based his own prayer on in Daniel 9.

I am aware that your view (A28D) holds to a future for Israel as well; how does a passage like Romans 11:25-29 fit in with that within A28D?

Also, within the A9D that I hold to, Jews are not presently seen by God as Jews, rather as concluded under sin with the Gentiles, or spiritual UNcircumcision, and thus, in need of the same gospel of the UNcircumcision by which the Gentiles are saved in this age of God's UNprophesied Mystery age - Acts 7:51 in light of Matt. 12:30-32; as of Acts 7:51; in light also of Romans 1 thru 3, Eph. 2, and so on.

Obviously, the idea of a Jew viewed in the position of UNcircumcision that Abraham was before God called him out from what was then just another Gentile nation is difficult for many to understand who have not studied this issue out, let alone; properly.

The resulting ignorance always concluding we are asserting God is not also saving those of Abraham's physical seed today.

A little bit of study alone would show that is not what we (A9D and A28D) are asserting.

The Scripture is clear that God hath concluded all under sin, that He might have mercy on all - without ethnic distinction.
 
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BABerean2

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He has seen this proof, and continues to press his lies.


Author Grant Jeffrey cut and pasted the writings of early Church Fathers in order to turn their Post-Trib views into Jeffrey's Pre-Trib viewpoint.


Jeffrey is also the guy who came up with the PseudoEphraem claim that you have used, even though the older Syriac version says something completely different.


And yet I am the one labeled as a liar, by the guy who has stated before that calling someone a "liar" is against forum rules...


Pretribulationist Revisionism
Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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