The "Rapture Hoax" Theory

[LamorakDesGalis]

The theory commonly called "the rapture hoax" for the origins of the pretribulation rapture goes something like this:

1. The idea originated with Immanuel Lacunza, a Roman Catholic Jesuit, who published a book in 1812 (in Spanish) called The Coming of Messiah in Majesty and Glory.

2. Edward Irving, a pioneer to the Catholic Apostolic Church, translated Lacunza's book in the 1820s. The Catholic Apostolic Church held to the reappearance of the supernatural gifts of tongues, healing and prophesying. While they were not founded by Irving, the members were commonly derided as "Irvingites."

3. Margaret MacDonald, an "Irvingite" gave a prophecy during a meeting and said the rapture was pretribulational.

4. Darby, attending this meeting, appropriated the pretribulation rapture as his own idea.

There are insinuations behind this theory, and to interpret those insinuations:
1. When your belief originates from a Roman Catholic, and especially a Spanish Jesuit, it is downright bad.
2. When this bad idea is translated into English by a misguided heretic, and then one of these Irvingites - Margaret MacDonald - utters it in a prophecy, it is even worse.
3. But it wasn't any prophecy, it was a demonic prophecy coming from a 13 year old girl. Most proper Christians would never touch that with a 10 foot pole, but not Darby.
4. Darby, who obviously couldn't think of something original on his own, decided to plagiarize the idea of a pretribulation rapture. Not just from anybody, but from a 13-year old demonically inspired girl. Bad Darby. Then Darby passed this idea on to the rest of the evangelical world, where most people bought it hook, line and sinker. Very bad Darby. And shame on those who hold to such a demonically inspired doctrine today, because you really should know better.

Now how should dispensationalists respond to this? I really don't think it is very helpful to ask questions such as:
1) Where did Edward Irving learn Spanish?
2) What color was Margaret's hair when she uttered the prophecy?
3) Was Darby really that bad at creating ideas and that great of a marketing expert?
4) Seriously, a demonically inspired 13 year old girl???

What might be helpful though is to ask whether the idea of a pretribulation rapture has been taught before Lacunza. That would immediately go to the heart of the matter.

A man named Morgan Edwards, a Baptist who founded Brown University, wrote something interesting. In the 1740s he wrote that 3.5 years before the two witnesses of Rev 11 were to be killed by the Antichrist, that Jesus would appear in the clouds, and that the dead in Christ would be raised and the living caught up to be with Him.

Going further back, written in the 1300s in Latin, is a text called The History of Brother Dolcino. The beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren are described as: after the coming of the Antichrist, believers will be caught up into paradise to be preserved from harm, then Enoch and Elijah would descend to the earth and eventually be killed by the Antichrist, and after the Antichrist is dead the believers would return to earth.

So if the "rapture hoax" theory is to be taken seriously, shoudn't it at least take these two examples into account? And if it can't...or won't...

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, and No.


Lacunza's work had a gap of 45 days between the removal of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ.
I do not know if Irving spoke and wrote Spanish or if he had some help, but he did get the Spanish version of Lacunza's book translated into English and added his own commentary, which he called the "Preliminary Discourse" at the beginning of the English version which he had published in 1827.
Please check this fact for yourself in the link below.


Morgan Edwards did write a paper on the topic while he was in seminary.
However, he never taught it as the truth and neither he nor his professor believed it was the truth.


I have heard the Brother Dolcino claim, but have not seen the full text.
It you can provide it, we would all like to take a look at It.


A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
Ernest Reisinger
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
http://www.regal-network.com/dispensationalism/pdfs.htm

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

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[LamorakDesGalis]

Lacunza's work had a gap of 45 days between the removal of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ.
I do not know if Irving spoke and wrote Spanish or if he had some help, but he did get the Spanish version of Lacunza's book translated into English and added his own commentary, which he called the "Preliminary Discourse" at the beginning of the English version which he had published in 1827.
Please check this fact for yourself in the link below.

You really missed the point.

Morgan Edwards did write a paper on the topic while he was in seminary.
However, he never taught it as the truth and neither he nor his professor believed it was the truth.

If "write a paper on the topic" means he wrote about the idea of a pretribulation rapture, then you have already conceded the point.

The conerstone to the "rapture hoax" theory is that the pretribulation rapture originated from Lacunza. If evidence shows that the idea of a pretribulation rapture preceeded Lacunza, then the rapture hoax theory falls apart. Simple as that.

I have heard the Brother Dolcino claim, but have not seen the full text.
It you can provide it, we would all like to take a look at It.

Item [credidit et predicavit et docuit] quod intra illos tres annos ipse Dulcinus et sui sequaces predicabunt adventum Antichristi et quod ipse Antichristus veniret in hunc mundum finitis dictis annis tribus cum dimidio et postquam venisset, ipse tunc et sui sequaces transferrentur in paradisum, in quo sunt Enoc et Elias et sic conservarentur illesi a persecutione Antichristi, et quod tunc ipsi Enoc et Elias descenderent in terram ad predicandum Antichristum, deinde interficerentur ab eo vel eius ministris et sic regnaret Antichristus per plura tempora. Eo vero Antichristo mortuo, ipse Dulcinus, qui tunc esset papa sanctus, et sui sequaces reservati descendent in terram et predicabunt fidem Christi rectam omnibus et convertent eos, qui tunc erunt vivi, ad veram fidem Iesu Christi.

 

[BABerean2]

If "write a paper on the topic" means he wrote about the idea of a pretribulation rapture, then you have already conceded the point.

I have written a number of papers on modern Dispensational Theology.
That does not mean I agree with the doctrine, just because I wrote a paper on the topic.

A number of papers are found in the links I provided, which make reference to the pretrib doctrine.
However, they are not promoting the doctrine.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American pastor taught a pretrib removal of the Church at the time of the Revolutionary War.

It is a historical fact that John Nelson Darby brought the doctrine to America about the time of the Civil War.

The paper by Brethren Historian F. R. Coad does an excellent job of tracing the history of the "Secret Rapture" doctrine.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

...................................................

2. Brother Dolcino (d. 1307)

One scholar has found a quote that relates to the teachings and disciples of Dolcino. Dolcino and his followers held to some form of rapture view whereby people were translated to heaven before the time of judgment on the Antichrist. The teaching is as follows:

"Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will be living then to the true faith of Jesus Christ"

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

Brother Dolcino's version looks more like a mid-trib viewpoint to me. It is actually in some ways closer to my own view than the pretrib view.



Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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[Biblewriter]

Actually, parts of the false narrative about the pre-trib rapture are true. But only parts of it. Irving claimed that He learned Spanish for the purpose of translating Lacunza's book. But his claim of having learned enough Spanish to translate the book in the very short time between the time he obtained it and the time he published the transalation is little short of incredible. BABerean2's theory about his having had someone else translate it may very well be the truth. And Margaret MacDonald did indeed claim to have had a vision about a rapture before the tribulation. But she was not 13 at the time, but more like 17, if I remember correctly, and I did not bother to look it up at this time.

But BABerean2 is pushing the very lies that the OP addresses. And the fact that He can quote a "Brethren historian" who circulates the lie does not make them true. If Darby had indeed based his doctrine on the alleged vision, his doctrine would have, like the alleged vision itself, been a partial rapture, not the complete one that Darby taught. Anyone who bothers to actually read the alleged vision, which is easily available on the internet, will see that it has only a select few believers raptured before the tribulation, with the rest of them left to face the Beast.

But there were far more than just two writers that taught a rapture before the great tribulation before the time of Irving and Darby. It has been taught throughout the history of the church. This doctrine is found in the very oldest Cristian commentary on Bible prophecy. It was found again around a hundred years later. And is very clearly taught in a document whose age is unknown, but is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. It was also taught in the dark ages, in the time of the enlightenment, and in the time of the industrial revolution.

It was also taught in the 1700s and in the 1800s before the time of the alleged vision.

For my detailed proof of all this, see my thread at:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...rapture-before-the-great-tribulation.7935961/

 

[BABerean2]

Actually, parts of the false narrative about the pre-trib rapture are true. But only parts of it. Irving claimed that He learned Spanish for the purpose of translating Lacunza's book. But his claim of having learned enough Spanish to translate the book in the very short time between the time he obtained it and the time he published the tansalation is little short of incredible. BABerean's theoru about his having had someone else translate it may very well be the truth. And Margaret MacDonald did indeed claim to have had a vision about a rapture before the tribulation. But she was not 13 at the time, but more like 17, if I remember correctly, and I did not bother to look it up at this time.

But BABerean2 is pushing the very lies that the OP addresses. And the fact that He can quote a "Brethren historian" who circulates the lie does not make them true. If Darby had indeed based his doctrine on the alleged vision, his doctrine would have, like the alleged vision itself, been a partial rapture, not the complete one that Darby taught. Anyone who bothers to actually read the alleged vision, which is easily available on the internet, will see that it has only a select few believers raptured before the tribulation, with the rest of them left to face the Beast.

But there were far more than just two writers that taught a rapture before the great tribulation before the time of Irving and Darby. It has been taught throughout the history of the church. This doctrine is found in the very oldest Cristian commentary on Bible prophecy. It was found again around a hundred years later. And is very clearly taught in a document whose age is unknown, but is known to have been in church libraries before the year 800. It was also taught in the dark ages, in the time of the enlightenment, and in the time of the industrial revolution.

It was also taught in the 1700s and in the 1800s before the time of the alleged vision.

Author Tim LaHaye’s fictional books and movies known as the “Left Behind” series have convinced millions of modern Christians that the Pretrib doctrine is scriptural. Look at his quote below and consider carefully which viewpoint is the oldest.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the
post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."

Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, Multnomath Publishers, Inc., 1998

Will the text produce a seven year stay in heaven for the Church, before the Second Coming of Christ?

When Paul wrote this letter there were no verses or chapters in the text.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(The phrase "sleep" in Jesus is a metaphor describing the dead in Christ.)

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(The word "descend" means to come down.)

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
(The word "But" connects chapter 5 to chapter 4.)

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(We also find the "day of the Lord" when He "comes as a thief" in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15, which are clearly Second Coming passages. Therefore, this verse provides the timing of the event at the end of chapter 4.)

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should
overtake you as a thief.(It will not overtake us as a thief.)

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(Dispensationalists often claim the tribulation period is “the wrath of God”, even though the Greek words translated as “tribulation” and “wrath” are not the same, and Revelation 12:12 shows at least some of the period to be the wrath of Satan.)

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
(The metaphor "sleep" in this verse proves that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.)


The previous verses show the Apostle Paul gave a description of the event at the end of chapter 4 and the timing of the event in chapter 5.

No seven year stay in heaven can be found within this text. It must be imported from another passage.

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[Biblewriter]

The fact that BABerean2 can post actual statements of pre-trib writers does not make those statements correct. I just posted a link to my conclusive proof that Tim LaHaye's statement is incorrect. And, as BABerean2 responded to that thread, he plainly saw the proof. He imagines that the fact that he is posting actual quotations justifies his disinformation campaign. But, as he has seen the proof that what he is posting is incorrect, there can be no justification of his continuing this line of attack.

 

[BABerean2]

I just posted a link to my conclusive proof that Tim LaHaye's statement is incorrect.

If you can use the scripture posted above from 1st Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 to show a pretrib rapture of the Church with a 7 year stay in heaven before Christ's Second Coming, then you would have "conclusive proof" that disproves Tim LaHaye's statement.

Otherwise we would have to say the Apostle Paul's letter to the Thessalonians would be the oldest point of view, thus proving LaHaye's statement to be true.

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[Danoh]

What can anyone expect from anyone who so erroneously concludes that the following two passages are talking about the same thing:

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

What can anyone expect from anyone who so erroneously concludes that the following two passages are talking about the same thing:

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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[ac28]

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

.

That was very true during Acts, when Gal was written. The nation Israel will inherit the earth. Those Jews and grafted in Gentiles (all of which were special Gentiles that already feared God) that believed in Christ during Acts will occupy the heavens (New Jerusalem. In other words, Israel will reside in and manage all of the earth and the created heavens and will replace the angels that sinned.

In Paul's post-Acts epistles, it is a totally different deal. By that time, all of Israel is completely out of the picture, temporarily, until the tribulation. The Gentiles saved today are the most faithful of all the believer's in Christ that have existed. All believers in Acts had the gift of knowledge and most usually had one other gift of the spirit. There were all sorts of miracles being performed all during Acts. It was much easier to believe then than it is now. All we have is God's word. All these gifts were the promised New Covenant belonging only to Israel and those grafted into Israel. It's main purpose was to allow Israel to keep the law through the power of the Holy Spirit rather than through the flesh (Old Covenant). This is summed up beautifully in Jer 31:31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Surrounding the created heavens and earth is God's abode, heavenly places, where Christ now sitteth at God's right hand. The only place in the Bible that anyone was said to have a calling there is in Paul's last 7 books. The only place in the Bible the phrase en tois eporanious = heavenly places, exists is in Ephesians, where it appears 5 times. The word Abraham occurs 8 times in Acts, 28 times in Paul's Acts epistles, and zero (0) times in Paul's post Acts epistles. The only humans that were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world were those Gentiles in Paul's last 7 epistles. The first 2000 years was mostly all giants. The 2nd 2000 years all Israel. The present 2000 years is all Gentiles

As an aside, the word, "hell" doesn't appear even once in any of Paul's 14 epistles. The Greek word, "hades" occurs once in Paul's writings but it is translated "grave", as the word "hades" should always be translated.

 

[BABerean2]

That was very true during Acts, when Gal was written. The nation Israel will inherit the earth. Those Jews and grafted in Gentiles (all of which were special Gentiles that already feared God) that believed in Christ during Acts will occupy the heavens (New Jerusalem. In other words, Israel will reside in and manage all of the earth and the created heavens and will replace the angels that sinned.

In Paul's post-Acts epistles, it is a totally different deal. By that time, all of Israel is completely out of the picture, temporarily, until the tribulation. The Gentiles saved today are the most faithful of all the believer's in Christ that have existed. All believers in Acts had the gift of knowledge and most usually had one other gift of the spirit. There were all sorts of miracles being performed all during Acts. It was much easier to believe then than it is now. All we have is God's word. All these gifts were the promised New Covenant belonging only to Israel and those grafted into Israel. It's main purpose was to allow Israel to keep the law through the power of the Holy Spirit rather than through the flesh (Old Covenant). This is summed up beautifully in Jer 31:31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Surrounding the created heavens and earth is God's abode, heavenly places, where Christ now sitteth at God's right hand. The only place in the Bible that anyone was said to have a calling there is in Paul's last 7 books. The only place in the Bible the phrase en tois eporanious = heavenly places, exists is in Ephesians, where it appears 5 times. The word Abraham occurs 8 times in Acts, 28 times in Paul's Acts epistles, and zero (0) times in Paul's post Acts epistles. The only humans that were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world were those Gentiles in Paul's last 7 epistles. The first 2000 years was mostly all giants. The 2nd 2000 years all Israel. The present 2000 years is all Gentiles

As an aside, the word, "hell" doesn't appear even once in any of Paul's 14 epistles. The Greek word, "hades" occurs once in Paul's writings but it is translated "grave", as the word "hades" should always be translated.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

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[ac28]

More totally unrelated scripture from the master of totally unrelated scripture.

Please explain exactly why you posted that scripture.

 

[BABerean2]

More totally unrelated scripture from the master of totally unrelated scripture.

Please explain exactly why you posted that scripture.

Because the 2 Peoples of God/2 Kingdoms/2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more judgments of the dead/New Testament "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/2 Seeds of Promise, cannot be found in the New Testament.

There is one fold and One Shepherd.

There is one Body of Christ called the Church, in Matthew chapter 16.


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[Salem]

What might be helpful though is to ask whether the idea of a pretribulation rapture has been taught before Lacunza. That would immediately go to the heart of the matter.

A man named Morgan Edwards, a Baptist who founded Brown University, wrote something interesting. In the 1740s he wrote that 3.5 years before the two witnesses of Rev 11 were to be killed by the Antichrist, that Jesus would appear in the clouds, and that the dead in Christ would be raised and the living caught up to be with Him.

Going further back, written in the 1300s in Latin, is a text called The History of Brother Dolcino. The beliefs of the Apostolic Brethren are described as: after the coming of the Antichrist, believers will be caught up into paradise to be preserved from harm, then Enoch and Elijah would descend to the earth and eventually be killed by the Antichrist, and after the Antichrist is dead the believers would return to earth.

So if the "rapture hoax" theory is to be taken seriously, shoudn't it at least take these two examples into account? And if it can't...or won't...

Something I've noticed is a striking tell with some of the anti-rapture crowd is this Darby claim they repeat. There is a sizable list of pre-millennialist and rapture references from greater antiquity than Darby, many going back to church fathers, and I have witnessed rapture opponents who've been presented this irrefutable, historic information from early writings. Still, the same people will return to the Darby claim, down the line, when they think people have forgotten the proof against the Darby, or MacDonald, lies.

In other words, some of these people are liars, using lies, to advance their claims, continue using these refuted talking points. Also, some of them are very angry over the pre-tribulation rapture, unnaturally so. I have seen them threaten pre-tribulation rapture people that they'll take the mark of the beast, that if you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture you're damned, you have a demon, are under demonic control, etc, all sorts of dark and vile foolishness. It has to be noted deception and angry, violent attitudes and condemnation are not congruous with the Holy Spirit.

This begs the question as to what spirit is behind their campaign against the rapture, some comments I've seen against the pre-tribulation rapture only lending support to it (though the pre-tribulation rapture is resoundingly in scripture, doesn't need such support), in that the opposition is showing so much deception, darkness and hatred as to not be of God. When people are really exercised against some truth, I think it's these truths the devil hates most.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

As to the pre-tribulation rapture having origins with Darby, try again, deceivers. Rapture doctrine began in the Old Testament, as surely as doctrine of the suffering Savior is also in Old Testament prophecy, going on to be taught by Jesus Christ Himself and Jesus Christ, through Paul and John. It always helps to begin any conversation being honest and getting your basic facts straight, that is if you have the Spirit and this is even possible, or you may not be worth talking to. After all, these are matters of theology, spiritually discerned, and if one doesn't grasp, understand, scripture, with only a desire to parade ignorance and refute truth, making a career of trollishly disputing, with no motivation to learn, what's the point? It's like trying to have a conversation with a dead and rotting tree stump, in the final analysis, goes nowhere, and only serving to drag truth through the mud.

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

1 Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[ac28]

Because the 2 Peoples of God/2 Kingdoms/2 Second Comings of Christ/ 2 or more judgments of the dead/New Testament "Rightly Divided" into 2 Parts/2 Seeds of Promise, cannot be found in the New Testament.

There is one fold and One Shepherd.

There is one Body of Christ called the Church, in Matthew chapter 16.


.

All that was all true when salvation was of the Jews -John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But, since they did not accept Christ, this salvation was given to the Gentiles - Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

During the 2000 years from Abraham to Acts 28, it was ALL Israel. During the present 2000 years, it is ALL Gentiles.

Nothing of a dispensational nature that Christ said during His earthly ministry applies to us in the present age.

There are 4 types of truth in the Bible: Dispensational, Doctrinal, Prophetic, and Practical. Dispensational truth changes from dispensation to dispensation.

The way you think things are is 180 degrees away from the way things REALLY are.

 

[BABerean2]

All that was all true when salvation was of the Jews -John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

But, since they did not accept Christ, this salvation was given to the Gentiles - Acts 28:28
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

My Jewish Christian friends would differ with you, since their faith proves your statement incorrect.

The middle wall of separation between all bloodlines, was broken down at Calvary.

Some of us are attempting to rebuild it...

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[BABerean2]

In other words, some of these people are liars, using lies, to advance their claims, continue using these refuted talking points.

We would be mere novices compared to pretrib author Grant Jeffrey...

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

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[ac28]

My Jewish Christian friends would differ with you, since their faith proves your statement incorrect.

The middle wall of separation between all bloodlines, was broken down at Calvary.

Some of us are attempting to rebuild it...

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Who cares what your Jewish Christian friends have to say about anything? Or a similar note, concerning your next post, who cares about what any people in history have to say about the Bible? Anything any of these people say is worthless. The Bible proves itself, period.

Since Israel doesn't exist today, in God's eyes, there is no middle wall of partition. Your Jewish friends are more likely to want it rebuilt than anyone. The Jews were the only ones that benefited from it.

 

[Salem]

We would be mere novices compared to pretrib author Grant Jeffrey...

Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.

Grant Jeffrey was a true, tenacious scholar and brilliant man, sorely missed. Yes, one of those with a greatness that makes novices of all of us, of that small community of theologians that break new ground.